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[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Getting to the POINT

Ene

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Bologna:

I'm also a fan of

"Here's my point: [the point]

Here's why I think that: [long flippin' explanatory text here]"

Best of both worlds for me.

Yep, me, too.

Coriolis:

One thing I hate is when I can tell what point someone is working up towards, but in an effort to be polite, I refrain from short-circuiting their account and give them the benefit of the doubt that perhaps I really don't know what they plan to say. Then, they proceed to say in the most longwinded manner possible exactly what I suspected they would. Makes me want to scream.

I do the same thing!

It's not the number of words, it's the word to content ratio. Use many words if you need them to develop your point; if paring them down would sacrifice meaning, don't. But don't say in 100 words what requires only 15.

Yes, I completely agree.

Te is also a big part of the translation mechanism from Ni to the outside world. I like to be concise, but also like to make sure I will be understood. I suspect my explanations are sometimes overkill as a result.

Oh, wow, thank you for sharing this. It gives me a good insight. I have often been accused of "over-explaining" or "overkill," and maybe this explains why.

PeaceBaby,

Thank you for this:
If all you want is the short answer, it's Je. Simplification of information in order to render judgment applicable to a "real world" scenario.
Yeah, but I've not heard Ji and Je before today, but MBTI is a growing subject for me. Learn something new everyday, so I will keep this in mind.
 

violet_crown

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:laugh: I can understand that. It's not to fuck with you, it's just the way we amalgamate information. I wish I had the gift of going into things decided, but almost everything is a journey of discovery. Every post for me is like that. I write it, but I restructure as I'm writing, as I discover better lines of thought to run on. I edit for organization after the thoughts pour out, not before or during, as I really struggle trying to organize them in my head - feels like a giant bowl of alphabet soup. Unfortunately, it's impossible to go back and edit speech! That said, ENTPs are notoriously trolly debaters.

FWIW, it bothers me a lot less with ENFPs than ENTPs. I really only run into the problem with ENFPs when I'm trying to offer assistance, and trying to single out a root cause to act on. After a few minutes of talking, eventually the ENFP will just throw up their hands and tell me, "IT'S ALL THE THINGS, OK??? ALL THE THINGS!!!!" I'm probably as frustrating to them as they are to me, tbh. :laugh:

ENTPs, otoh, it's like they derive a sense of superiority from the inability to stay on topic. With rare exception, they're usually not worth the time to communicate with as it usually just devolves into conflict.
 

Rasofy

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Rasofy, so, um what's your point? ;)
:angry:
Yep, everything said needs a point! haha...imagine going through a drive-thru window and ordering a burger. When you get the bag, you just keep digging through that thin paper that they wrap the food in, but all you find is paper, paper and more paper; so you keep digging and digging to find your burger, until you finally look up and say, "Hey, where's the beef?" [laughing as I type this] Well, sometimes in a conversation, I'm going, "Hey, where's beef?" I admit to being that way. I'm just trying to figure out what function is responsible for me being that way and which function is responsible for conversations wrapped in lots and lots of paper.
That's a pretty nice analogy to keep in mind while wondering whether I'm talking too much, haha. My answer to Coriolis is basically my answer to you:

If It doesn't, why say it?
There's a Ji compulsion to deconstruct things/events/ideas to bits going on, I think. It's basically our way of sharing knowledge. We aren't that focused on getting to the point, as sometimes the 'how' and the 'what if' parts are much more interesting.

Results range from fascinating to annoying, though it might be possible to channel the fixation to something worth listening by asking the right questions.
 

Ene

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There's a Ji compulsion to deconstruct things/events/ideas to bits going on, I think. It's basically our way of sharing knowledge. We aren't that focused on getting to the point, as sometimes the 'how' and the 'what if' parts are much more interesting.

Results range from fascinating to annoying, though it might be possible to channel the fixation to something worth listening by asking the right questions.

Why, thank you, Rasofy. That really does explain things quite nicely and you did a fine job of getting your point across, too:)

Also, I love the hatchet!
 

Coriolis

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There's a Ji compulsion to deconstruct things/events/ideas to bits going on, I think. It's basically our way of sharing knowledge. We aren't that focused on getting to the point, as sometimes the 'how' and the 'what if' parts are much more interesting.

Results range from fascinating to annoying, though it might be possible to channel the fixation to something worth listening by asking the right questions.
I'm familiar with this scenario, and can usually ask the right questions, as long as the other person is willing to cooperate with the interrogation. Sometimes, though, I just end up in those loops of knowing what they are going to say before they say it, and getting impatient when they don't cut to the chase.
 

OrangeAppled

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I don't tend to tell stories for their own sake. There is always a point - often many. I find ISFPs use real stories to illustrate Fi points & INFPs use metaphor more, but each can do either at times.

When I was younger, my mom told me I needed to connect my ideas to the main point(s) in my school papers, because I supposedly jumped from one to the next, although I did not see it that way. I thought the connections were "obvious" and connecting them was tedious & dull. It seemed to me someone had to be pretty stupid to not get it...

I've also read that INFPs often may use terminology or reference things others are not familiar with, assuming that they are, which leaves people confused. I'm not sure why we may do this, but I know I do this, especially with areas I have some knowledge in (using specialized terminology assuming everyone knows them). I think it's some tert Si thing & giving the benefit of the doubt. INTPs do it too but are more obsessed with precision & tend to end up spelling out as if you're stupid (not giving benefit of the doubt). I think INFPs assume you're smart enough to make connections, so they don't spell the point out. They give you the pieces, assuming you're getting the big picture. This probably has to do with the "informative" communication style, where you're simply given information with an implied direction for action or conclusion.

Being an NP, there's a lot of crossing of contexts. You create a relationship between two things to explain an abstract idea. A story is often, again, illustrative. And we're not necessarily going off topic... we just didn't spell out the connection for you. If given enough time, I think it wraps back around & you have quite ingenious point on your hands ;) .

Anyhow, once I was informed that people weren't following me, I began to laboriously connect the dots, add more details, & probably over-explain. Now you have a wall-o-texter.... Be careful what you ask for.

^ That has a point in it; several actually.

Oh wait - more ideas. Also, as Ji-dom, judging, or organizing reality into things like "points" is experienced & viewed as an individual, internal thing. Unlike Je, which is looking externally for that organization, I guess. To me this looks like "stupid" again. And when Je types make points, I admit I tend to ignore them. I consider the info & decide for myself what it means.
 

gromit

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If I'm having trouble explaining something sometimes, I actually like J people who say like 1 sentence which articulates or summarizes it perfectly. It's really pleasing.
 
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It's not the number of words, it's the word to content ratio. Use many words if you need them to develop your point; if paring them down would sacrifice meaning, don't. But don't say in 100 words what requires only 15.

I wish you were every college prof I ever had.
 
G

Glycerine

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^ hahahah. Oh man I always hated the "minimum length requirements". The only way I ever met them was through writing fairly detailed and pointless examples. :D
 
G

Ginkgo

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I think "points" are learned through the context and connotation when the explicit details relate to the audience's interpretation of something. Sometimes I just talk for the sake of being known, and in those cases, a dry illustration of my perspective can suffice. If someone gives a long-winded explanation, it probably means they think they are misunderstood, which, from what I hear, is rather common for INFPs.
 

cafe

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I need to know where things are going if it's going to be a long account. It helps me be patient and enjoy the story.

I think I probably start out a lot of stories with "OMG! Can you believe this?? So and so did/said blabitty blabitty blah blah blah . . . "

And end them with "Why would somebody DO/SAY that?!?"

So the point is kinda there, but then I keep rehashing it over and over again because I'm all :wtf: and trying to figure out what I'm missing because it doesn't make any sense to me and I need for things to make sense from some perspective, no matter how convoluted.

I suspect it is not a joyous experience for my listeners.
 

Z Buck McFate

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I am becoming more and more aware of just how non-Fi dom I really am and to tell the truth, sometimes I have to cut and paste Fi-dom posts and take them apart in order to try to get to the heart of what is being said [and that takes so much time, that I have a hard time posting replies to a lot of what is said here] and to my utter amazement, there often is no “point” or 'heart' of the matter and I get a bit frustrated because I feel like it is aimless wandering, but of course, it's not. I have discovered this with my INFP friend in real life; she often spends a long time telling me about something. I keep waiting for the point, but there is no point. She is just sharing an experience with me. Maybe that is more a P thing than an Fi thing. I don’t know.

Is it an NiFe thing that I feel there needs to be a purpose for what is being said, that it needs to be leading up to something, to produce something or is it a result of the J-function? Or is it a Te quality that I need for things to "produce something of substance" that I can somehow utilize and make sense of?

Yes, I’ve said almost this exact thing in the forum before, more than once. It isn’t that I don’t think they have a point, but I struggle with trying to understand the relevance because my mind prioritizes other kinds of information and works in the other direction.


I'm also a fan of

"Here's my point: [the point]

Here's why I think that: [long flippin' explanatory text here]"

Best of both worlds for me.

Ideally, yes. My problem is finding the relevance. There’s some reason they’re saying it. Until I know what that reason is, they’re just saying a bunch of *stuff* (that I’ll never remember or be able to pay attention to, because I have no idea where it fits). If you give me the grocery cart before you start passing all sorts of *stuff* to me, then I’ll have somewhere to put it. Otherwise I’ll only be able to ‘hold’ one or two of those things (and if I can’t figure out what those two things are for, I’ll put them down as soon as I get distracted and forget about them as well).

I think it's especially a problem when communicating via a written medium because it allows me to focus on the content more than the person (which leads me to want to focus harder on the point). When I get together with my INFP friend irl there’s never really a problem.

I’ve thought before it may be largely Ti/Fe vs. Fi/Te because I find that INTP posts actually often help me clear up ambivalent thoughts I’m having. And when the introverted judgment being used is Ti, I don’t struggle anywhere near as much to understand the relevance of the nits they’re picking. [eta: this post still effectively nails it for me, why INFPs can sound like "Emo emo. Emo. Emo? Emo." to me.]
 
S

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a common Ne/Ni conco:
Ne: [insert a ramble about Y X & Z]
Ni: so your saying that Y = X/2+Z, meaning [insert Ne observation]..
Ne: yes, and X=(Y-Z)*2
Ni: but that means...
Ne:.and ofcourse Z=Y-X-2
Ni: so whats the point of all this?

One possible solution for Ni users reading or listening to Ne content (here and elsewhere), as well as maximizing Ni/Ne dynamics, is to percieve that there will be multiply points, or rather meanings.. which the Ne author might be completely unaware of, and in fact would rather apriciate.

I think to some extent thats what my INTJ father did with my ENFP mother and my ENTP self, and he seemed to enjoy it more often then getting frustrated by it.
 

entropie

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a common Ne/Ni conco:
Ne: [insert a ramble about Y X & Z]
Ni: so your saying that Y = X/2+Z, meaning [insert Ne observation]..
Ne: yes, and X=(Y-Z)*2
Ni: but that means...
Ne:.and ofcourse Z=Y-X-2
Ni: so whats the point of all this?

One possible solution for Ni users reading or listening to Ne content (here and elsewhere), as well as maximizing Ni/Ne dynamics, is to percieve that there will be multiply points, or rather meanings.. which the Ne author might be completely unaware of, and in fact would rather apriciate.

I think to some extent thats what my INTJ father did with my ENFP mother and my ENTP self, and he seemed to enjoy it more often then getting frustrated by it.

I get Z = Y - X/2
 

Entropic

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I am becoming more and more aware of just how non-Fi dom I really am and to tell the truth, sometimes I have to cut and paste Fi-dom posts and take them apart in order to try to get to the heart of what is being said [and that takes so much time, that I have a hard time posting replies to a lot of what is said here] and to my utter amazement, there often is no “point” or 'heart' of the matter and I get a bit frustrated because I feel like it is aimless wandering, but of course, it's not. I have discovered this with my INFP friend in real life; she often spends a long time telling me about something. I keep waiting for the point, but there is no point. She is just sharing an experience with me. Maybe that is more a P thing than an Fi thing. I don’t know.

Is it an NiFe thing that I feel there needs to be a purpose for what is being said, that it needs to be leading up to something, to produce something or is it a result of the J-function? Or is it a Te quality that I need for things to "produce something of substance" that I can somehow utilize and make sense of?

My real question is, what is the point of this rant? ;) Anyway, in socionics, seeking a "point" in someone's post or idea suggests Te as a valuing function, yes. If anything in socionics, it would be alphas and to a degree, betas, being unable to get to their points due to the way Ti-Fe operates where Ti rarely has a "point" in itself that Te does.
 

Coriolis

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I think I probably start out a lot of stories with "OMG! Can you believe this?? So and so did/said blabitty blabitty blah blah blah . . . "

And end them with "Why would somebody DO/SAY that?!?"
Because People Are Stupid.

(Is that concise enough?)
 

Ene

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Hey, Lea,

Thanks for responding.

My real question is, what is the point of this rant?

First, thank you very much for your reply.

Second, to be nit-picky, it's not a rant. A rant, according to dictionary.com is, ".1: to talk in a noisy, excited, or declamatory manner 2: to scold vehemently:... to utter in a bombastic declamatory fashion." So, I'm not ranting, just asking questions. Just wanted to 'clarify.'

Third: the point is that I was asking these specific questions:
1.Is it an NiFe thing that I feel there needs to be a purpose for what is being said
,
2. or is it a result of the J-function?
3.Or is it a Te quality that I need for things to "produce something of substance" that I can somehow utilize and make sense of?

And you answered:

Anyway, in socionics, seeking a "point" in someone's post or idea suggests Te as a valuing function, yes.
Thank you.

If anything in socionics, it would be alphas and to a degree, betas, being unable to get to their points due to the way Ti-Fe operates where Ti rarely has a "point" in itself that Te does.

Hmmm...thank you for this. It helps me realize that I am more alpha than beta:)
 
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