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  1. #11
    Junior Member Faithful's Avatar
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    Thanks also @Chanaynay

    It always helps to get multiple perspectives!

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithful View Post
    Hmm.. Ne is something I'm trying to understand better, but this makes a lot of sense. I kind of think that just being an INFJ must really take Ne for its money sometimes... lol.

    I'm definitely going to try something along these lines. It sounds workable.. and less cruel Thanks so much!
    Yes, true, NFJs always keep me intrigued.

    You're welcome, and good luck! I'm sorry you have to deal with the situation, but he'll be grateful for you not suddenly disappearing.

  3. #13
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Hi Faithful. You are probably long gone...currently unpacking from your recent relocation. <--OMG I'm kidding. I wish I could have returned sooner and had already responded but your message brought up some stuff for me and I sat on it too long. I hope you are well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Faithful View Post
    Oooh wow! Thanks for catching me up on this. TBH yes, I did mean withdrawing/distancing myself. I know it seems cruel.. and actually its something I detest doing, but sometimes you've got to be cruel to be kind you know... It never occurred to me that this could be interpreted in any other way than disinterest. This might explain why ExFPs have accused me in the past of playing hard to get and leading them on...
    You don’t need to spend a whole heck of a lot of time on personality websites and/or reading published/personal works to learn that the INFJ personality type has seemingly earned themselves the title of ‘Most Likely To Withdraw.’ <--And, you know, maybe that’s accurate. It certainly wouldn’t surprise me any if someone produced some credible figures demonstrating it was true…but I’ve had my doubts. In my mind all types withdraw from time to time…or at the very least all of the introverted and a few extroverted types (ENFP) will be prone to this kind of thing. So I’ve often wondered if it’s not frequency but rather ‘execution’… That it’s the (unique) way in which an INFJ handles this kind of situation which leads to the misconception and subsequently a reputation which may not, in fact, be warranted.

    ‘Cause if I had a dollar for every time I’ve read an INFJ insist the individual(s) completely understood the reason for the withdrawal (that they had been very clear)…and another dollar for every time I’ve seen some poor smuck show-up and begin a thread that goes a little something like ‘my INFJ friend/lover/co-worker/family member stopped communicating with me and I don’t know why’…there is no way in hell I would be creating this post right now. Because the tropical beach I would be lounging on would be too remote…and internet service faulty at best. Trust me, I’ve seen other withdrawal stories involving other types. But this ‘I was very clear’ / ‘I just don’t understand’ disconnect seems distinctly INFJ. And I was merely reminded of this with what you wrote pertaining to ‘withdrawal’ and how you were under the impression it could only mean ‘disinterest’. Do INFJs have a tendency to assign a definition to the act…and conclude the withdrawal ‘speaks for itself’…subsequently replacing the need for a verbal explanation? Is that what happens?

    Either way, my mind can instantly generate hundreds of reasons why an individual might withdraw from another individual…and feel 100% confident saying…if you were to withdraw from this ENFP without providing him with an honest reason why…he’s not going to get it. Even if he suspects ‘disinterest’ that’s still just one possibility and he won’t settle on it until it is confirmed by you. And out of genuine concern he will repeatedly try to contact you… And you will surely think ‘What an asshole! how dare he continue to try and contact me after I’ve sent him such a clear message. I guess it’s like they say…us INFJs really are irresistible.’


    Quote Originally Posted by Faithful View Post
    So how does one actively stand ground as a friend? I've tried doing this already, but it doesn't seem to work very well because he senses my inhibitions and immediately does everything he can to push the boundaries. And he catches me off guard... which means that my own behavior is probably inconsistent
    Considering everything I just wrote above…I’m going to bet the farm on ‘you haven’t had an open and honest conversation with him about your concerns.’ So, do I now own two farms?

    I apologize, when I wrote out those ‘How-To instructions’ I now realize I didn’t explain enough…because I too operate with my own set of definitions and assumptions that do appear slightly different from those of some INFJs. If I have described an individual as ‘friend’…I have just described an individual that I am able to communicate openly with even when the specific set of circumstances makes it extraordinarily difficult and/or embarrassing to do so. By its very definition…that is what I owe them and what I expect in return. It is my responsibility to a friend to share my concerns…and, of course within reason, would absolutely avoid making decisions that affect the entirety of the friendship without consulting the friend as well. Perhaps there are certain things…extroversion, Fi, being more resistant to conflict if it arises…that makes it easier for me to do all of the above idk. But yah, I forget, I do notice a lot of INFJs will not verbally express their concerns (or maybe they believe the concerns should be obvious to the other person)…and make large scale decisions…like ending a friendship…alone.

    So I guess the bad news is…my plan did presuppose open and honest (and ongoing) communication. This is not something that can be accomplished without it. If you are unable to begin an open dialogue with… ‘Your behavior sometimes causes me to feel like you have romantic feelings for me…what’s up with that ENFP?’ than I’m not sure what can be done. I just hope if you go the withdrawal route…that you would take heart and at least explain to him…if need be in writing…why you took that action.

    It is not the withdrawal that is cruel. Please believe me when I say…it is the lack of explanation.

  4. #14
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    ^^^^^^^^^
    I think Starry's post above does a great job of explaining how an INFJ's withdrawal without explanation can feel to an ENFP... and perhaps to other types as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    It is my responsibility to a friend to share my concerns…and, of course within reason, would absolutely avoid making decisions that affect the entirety of the friendship without consulting the friend as well... I do notice a lot of INFJs will not verbally express their concerns (or maybe they believe the concerns should be obvious to the other person)…and make large scale decisions…like ending a friendship…alone... It is not the withdrawal that is cruel. Please believe me when I say…it is the lack of explanation.
    I cannot understate how well she describes the "INFJ withdrawal" situation from the ENFP perspective. Let me echo her sentiments. It would never occur to me to make a unilateral decision of such great import as ending a friendship without consulting the other person. (The only exception to this that I can think of would be if I judged the other person horribly immoral to the point of being dangerous to me.) Ending a friendship seems to me like the kind of decision that demands a bi-directional conversation before any final decision is made.

    Also like Starry, it has been my experience that many INFJs don't see things in the same way I do. They will withdraw/cut off contact without discussing it with the other person first. Usually, it is not the INFJ's intention to harm the other person. In fact, the INFJ may be trying to NOT hurt the other person by withdrawing. Regardless, there seems to be a lack of awareness as to how such withdrawing can play out with the other person. Let me tell you from personal experience that it is the withdrawing without any apparent explanation that hurts soooo much to the ENFP.

    @Faithful, I'm not saying that you have to force yourself to date this ENFP guy when you would rather just be friends. All I'm suggesting is there might be another way to approach this situation that doesn't require you to withdraw at all. For example, make it clear you're interested in someone else. Or make it clear that you're not interested in him. Isn't this the best of both words? You will quell his crush and yet you will still be able to keep him as a friend. And at the same time, you won't hurt him in the way that withdrawing without an overtly stated explanation would.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  5. #15
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    ^^^^^^^^^
    I think Starry's post above does a great job of explaining how an INFJ's withdrawal without explanation can feel to an ENFP... and perhaps to other types as well.



    I cannot understate how well she describes the "INFJ withdrawal" situation from the ENFP perspective. Let me echo her sentiments. It would never occur to me to make a unilateral decision of such great import as ending a friendship without consulting the other person. (The only exception to this that I can think of would be if I judged the other person horribly immoral to the point of being dangerous to me.) Ending a friendship seems to me like the kind of decision that demands a bi-directional conversation before any final decision is made.

    Also like Starry, it has been my experience that many INFJs don't see things in the same way I do. They will withdraw/cut off contact without discussing it with the other person first. Usually, it is not the INFJ's intention to harm the other person. In fact, the INFJ may be trying to NOT hurt the other person by withdrawing. Regardless, there seems to be a lack of awareness as to how such withdrawing can play out with the other person. Let me tell you from personal experience that it is the withdrawing without any apparent explanation that hurts soooo much to the ENFP.

    @Faithful, I'm not saying that you have to force yourself to date this ENFP guy when you would rather just be friends. All I'm suggesting is there might be another way to approach this situation that doesn't require you to withdraw at all. For example, make it clear you're interested in someone else. Or make it clear that you're not interested in him. Isn't this the best of both words? You will quell his crush and yet you will still be able to keep him as a friend. And at the same time, you won't hurt him in the way that withdrawing without an overtly stated explanation would.
    Thanks EW. It means a lot to have another ENFP come on here and express that what I'm saying rings true for them as well. It's actually immensely helpful.

    I need to go back and find a few of these threads that exist in the archives of this forum because well...I'm in love with them. There's this one old, old, old INFJ withdrawing thread...and you know ***I'm putting in this disclaimer so I don't have the whole gang coming after me..."We've evolved a lot on this site. Thanks in large part to you Miss Wench truth be told. And there no way in hell these kind of people would get away with this kind of conversation the way the climate is today. Again, having such super evolved, enlightened people on the site currently. These people have long passed. There is no one on this site that would say these kinds of things now."

    But it was so awesome because there was this back-and-forth exchange going on between some (stated) INFJs and they were actually saying, in all seriousness mind you, that the individuals that they had abandoned 'always wanted them back' and 'started making numerous contact attempts' (that went unanswered). The part that I inserted above was no accident...the 'INFJs are irresistible' comes from that thread. And in all fairness, these individuals could have been venting some seriously legitimate anger...and their stories totally legitimate from multiple points of view. But because of my own experience I was like....'Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...are you absolutely sure these individuals aren't 'contacting you repeatedly' because they have no fuckin clue as to what happened? Not saying you guys aren't irresistible and all...but have you considered the possibility...that these individuals might have an easier time 'letting go'...even in the face of those insurmountable odds created and sustained by your unbelievable awesomeness...they may, God willing, find a way to endure...if they could just get beyond the acute panic they are experiencing thinking you are 1.) dead 2.) have completely lost your mind 3.) were abducted 4.) were hit on the head and lost your memory 5.) ...

    And while I don't deal in the measurement of pain...I could definitely construct an argument that this kind of scenario...suddenly removing yourself from an ENxPs reality (and I'm using 'reality' very purposefully here) may, in fact, be more distressing than it would be for other types simply because of the nature of Ne. And this always reminds me of search and rescue dogs of all things. Apparently, search and rescue dogs...once they have been put to work (apparently this isn't a problem on non-working days)...but once they have been brought out to a disaster and put to work searching for people that are trapped or buried under debris or whatever...if at the end of the day no one is found alive...the trainers will select and purposely hide some random people - no joke - for the dogs to 'find'...because if the dogs don't feel like they have had a good ending...they won't stop...but rather continue to try and find someone alive working themselves beyond the point of exhaustion. <--This is exactly what the 'withdraw without explanation' is like to me. We are thrilled when something goes from 'what's possible' to 'what's actual'...but someone yanking the plug on something that was very real to us...immediately throws it back into the realm of possibility which is incredibly confusing/disorienting...because back in that realm anything could be true about something we've already constructed a story around. Once we have the truth and can weave for ourselves the story's actual end (find someone alive)...we can move on very quickly. Well, actually I should say this as well. Many ENFPs...may not even act hurt or actively seek out the truth like the more forceful among us...but if they have been deprived of a shared ending by someone they loved/trusted...I swear there's still a small part of them looking for live bodies. It's a very cruel thing to do. Withdraw away. Just leave us the truth and be done with us.

  6. #16
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    ^ Yeah, absolutely. Withdrawal without explanation is painful. IMO, if an NFJ needs to withdraw and doesn't want to give the real reason, the second best solution would be to just provide a white lie - like you need to focus on yourself some, or you have to tend to such and such activity, or you're really into such and such personal project lately, or whatever. Withdrawal without explanation will just be a mystery that will tear the ENFP apart and that they will itch to solve.

  7. #17
    Junior Member Faithful's Avatar
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    Hmm.. wow. This is information that is in many ways new to me. I can't speak on behalf of all INFJs (I can often appear as an extrovert and have a very strong Ti function compared to most of my INFJ friends, so maybe I'm unique in this). Distancing for me is usually a last resort - as in it is done after I have tried to approach an issue directly but without success, or if I'm being emotionally damaged by a relationship and need out. You're right though, I never tell people why I'm distancing myself. It seems so obvious to me when coupled with the situational context of a friendship that it simply doesn't occur to me. Maybe more significantly, I'm very afraid of my Fe function over riding my logic as it would if I were to make the decision in consultation with my friend. I care so much about others' feelings that sometimes when I know that I need to take an action at all costs for myself its very very difficult. Its better for myself just to withdraw quickly and cleanly rather than go through a long drawn out process.

    So why do I withdraw? Simply put: my time is the most precious commodity I have. I only share my time with people that I appreciate and who I know I share the same values. Sure, I will be polite and friendly with people I don't care about, but to give of myself in a real way is only possible if I value being with that person for whatever reason. I would rather be entirely alone than waste my time on people who do not value it. So, if I give you time its the biggest compliment I know to give. If I want someone to feel less "valued" (as in romantic disinterest) then I automatically withdraw my time. I know this probably sounds all cold-hearted to you... but its only ever done out of a sense of doing what is best for the other person and for my self in the long term.

    I'm sorry some of you seem to have had painful experiences with this I do know what it's like to be on the receiving end.. an INFJ friend did this to me also without an explanation. To be honest, I am still having issues accepting it because it prevented me having proper closure. I'm trying to learn to address issues directly before resorting to withdrawal..

    @Starry - I did actually address the issue directly more than once over the last few months. I guess maybe part of my problem is that secretly I really like him and I think he knows this. Each time I've been upfront about it and suggested that we back off slightly he has been exceedingly agreeable and understanding - and then within a week or two things just revert. Now I think I'm in worse trouble.. After your previous advice I decided just to wait a bit while I processed the information to figure out the best plan of action. Somehow while I was still feeling all undecided I accidentally gave him permission to contact me regularly. He immediately started talking to me every single day until the other day.. for some reason he suddenly became super awkward and quiet and hasn't talked for a few days now. I don't know whether that is good or bad - worse yet, I don't know whether I really do want him to back off or not.... oh *sigh*

    This probably sounds so convoluted. Lol... for all an INFJ being opinionated sometimes we get caught in a catch 20 - when logic + feeling for and against are equally balanced. Which brings me to the final reason an INFJ will withdraw: emotional-logical dissonance. <<---- usually this type of withdrawal is the one we regret. Go figure.

  8. #18
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithful View Post
    @Starry - I did actually address the issue directly more than once over the last few months. I guess maybe part of my problem is that secretly I really like him and I think he knows this. Each time I've been upfront about it and suggested that we back off slightly he has been exceedingly agreeable and understanding - and then within a week or two things just revert. Now I think I'm in worse trouble.. After your previous advice I decided just to wait a bit while I processed the information to figure out the best plan of action. Somehow while I was still feeling all undecided I accidentally gave him permission to contact me regularly. He immediately started talking to me every single day until the other day.. for some reason he suddenly became super awkward and quiet and hasn't talked for a few days now. I don't know whether that is good or bad - worse yet, I don't know whether I really do want him to back off or not.... oh *sigh*
    Hello Faithful. I'm so glad you are still here! Actually, you were saying you've been a reader here for a while. I hope you stay or at least pop in from time to time. You just seem like such a lovely person. Anyway, yah, I'm sure you were surprised to receive all that commentary and I'm trying to figure out how to explain... Basically, I reached an Ne tipping point.

    I just started to try and explain this to a friend as well and I don't feel like I'm doing that great of job there either...but it's like we gather the information...and then the 'counter' starts. What is the belief? What is the expected finding? In this case, everything I've read...published works, online descriptions, personal accounts and explanations... leads to this conclusion: If you are an INFJ - ending a relationship is a last resort. If you are an INFJ - you do everything in your power to maintain your personal relationships (even to the point of being self-sacrificing). If you are an INFJ - you would never withdraw from a friend/relationship without first making multiple attempts to reach compromise via direct interpersonal communication - in other words, the other person will be fully aware of the reasons for the withdrawal.

    ^^Everything I've collected tells me that is my expected finding. And so Ne starts crunching the numbers. In the back of the mind Ne keeps running the equations over and over and over keeping track of the pattern as new experiences are added to it and the tapestry grows and expands outward... And exceptions are accounted for. Exceptions add beauty to the tapestry and we love them. But when the 'exceptions' start adding up... we start to become suspicious. <--Add a few more exceptions to that... and yah...we'll immediately be like 'What are you trying to get us to believe the sky is green here?'

    I wish I had some grand prize to give you...but yah...your thread merely caused my balance to tip haha. This pattern will continue to grow and expand... but after I added the information you presented into the equation...
    From what you presented it appeared you were yet another example or 'exception' of an INFJ that was going to use withdrawal as a first response to a relationship challenge, without consultation or at the very least providing an explanation why. Moreover, and yes I realize you are communicating via the forum and I'm honest to god not judging you here...but it seemed like an easy and common decision for you to make and that you had made this same choice several times before (which actually keeps the scales tipped haha). It was kinda like "Oh shucks - darn. Looks like I've gotta pull the plug on yet another ExFP! What a shame. Well thanks for the help!" So yah...tipping point.

    I'm confused though...and must sound so judgmental. If I do I truly apologize because that is not representative of how I feel...but I need to be honest... 'direct communication' doesn't mean...he must be honest while you totally conceal your feelings and lie by withholding information. That only serves you...that's not being a good friend. When I said 'open and honest' communication is the only way this...and any relationship can truly be healed or shaped or grow on a shared foundation...I mean...both people communicating openly and honestly. <--This is another scale that's getting close to its tipping point concerning INFJs as well tbh. But whatever. Of COURSE he's confused and pulling away. And if you care to I admit I'm super curious... If you are communicating with him directly like you say... why would you come on here in order to find out whether or not he is showing signs of having romantic interest? I admit again...I'm so confused...and have no understanding of what you want from us ENFPs.

  9. #19
    Junior Member Faithful's Avatar
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    Ok - I see where you're coming from.

    I think this is the primary difference between Ne and Ni and why there can be occasional big time confusion between INxJs and ENxPs (in my experience anyway). Ni is how I operate. That is I understand by Ni and when I meet someone who is obviously intuitive, my first response is 'float' our communication on iNtuition. The problem: Ni is all about locating patterns and drawing conclusions about what is similar and makes sense when added up (kind of like 1+1 = 2); I could be wrong, but Ne seems to focus much more on what doesn't fit, and looking at all the possibilities at why that might be. This can mean jumping to conclusions prematurely on both sides.

    So, I told you I was direct, but I didn't tell you what I was direct about. I came here because my Ni was looking for enough information to feed into a pattern that I could analyze better. And it honestly has helped. Before that I just had a more or less gut feeling which just wasn't enough for me to justify what seemed to me to be 'blowing' the situation out of proportion. What I did state when I was direct was more or less "Hey, you're like my brother and I really care about you, but I feel uncomfortable with the direction (emotional depth) our conversations have taken, so lets back off." I made sure he knew that I was assuming that he doesn't want it to be more than friends either. To which his response was accommodating, somewhat apologetic and he did state that he didn't think we were on the same page even though he understood me. After that it felt like he only became more persistent and pushing my boundaries even more. It's really hard for me to describe the big picture for you to fully understand. I guess the main reason I asked for advice here is because I didn't want to keep making a big deal over it if there really wasn't any problem to make a big deal over.

    My other problem is that after I was direct in that way, and after I asked for advice here, my emotional-logical dissonance kind of became more pronounced. Actually my behavior toward him has been very consistent. Pretty much always receptive apart from the conversation I mentioned above. Because I know logically what I want (friendship only) but my emotions say otherwise I found I'm hesitant to burn all my bridges. This means that I have behaved as though there is an open door somewhere and that he might be able to find it if he looks hard enough. I guess this is really irresponsible of me huh... I know I will be able to figure out exactly what I want within a few months. Its just that I never know how I feel (I always know how others feel but myself? haha) and it takes a while for me to digest emotion-laden situations

    Edit: I'm the kind of person that has many friends (including male friends) and I always play on the assumption that none of my males friends are interested in me in "that" way. It's not that I'm trying to be cruel or whatever. Just that I am often very naive and never can tell when someone actually does like me. That's why I asked for advice - to get some kind of objective viewpoint to help me analyze the situation at hand better.

  10. #20
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithful View Post
    Ok - I see where you're coming from.

    I think this is the primary difference between Ne and Ni and why there can be occasional big time confusion between INxJs and ENxPs (in my experience anyway). Ni is how I operate. That is I understand by Ni and when I meet someone who is obviously intuitive, my first response is 'float' our communication on iNtuition. The problem: Ni is all about locating patterns and drawing conclusions about what is similar and makes sense when added up (kind of like 1+1 = 2); I could be wrong, but Ne seems to focus much more on what doesn't fit, and looking at all the possibilities at why that might be. This can mean jumping to conclusions prematurely on both sides.

    So, I told you I was direct, but I didn't tell you what I was direct about. I came here because my Ni was looking for enough information to feed into a pattern that I could analyze better. And it honestly has helped. Before that I just had a more or less gut feeling which just wasn't enough for me to justify what seemed to me to be 'blowing' the situation out of proportion. What I did state when I was direct was more or less "Hey, you're like my brother and I really care about you, but I feel uncomfortable with the direction (emotional depth) our conversations have taken, so lets back off." I made sure he knew that I was assuming that he doesn't want it to be more than friends either. To which his response was accommodating, somewhat apologetic and he did state that he didn't think we were on the same page even though he understood me. After that it felt like he only became more persistent and pushing my boundaries even more. It's really hard for me to describe the big picture for you to fully understand. I guess the main reason I asked for advice here is because I didn't want to keep making a big deal over it if there really wasn't any problem to make a big deal over.

    My other problem is that after I was direct in that way, and after I asked for advice here, my emotional-logical dissonance kind of became more pronounced. Actually my behavior toward him has been very consistent. Pretty much always receptive apart from the conversation I mentioned above. Because I know logically what I want (friendship only) but my emotions say otherwise I found I'm hesitant to burn all my bridges. This means that I have behaved as though there is an open door somewhere and that he might be able to find it if he looks hard enough. I guess this is really irresponsible of me huh... I know I will be able to figure out exactly what I want within a few months. Its just that I never know how I feel (I always know how others feel but myself? haha) and it takes a while for me to digest emotion-laden situations
    I feel like I've seen a 'written way better' description of Ne that was basically a comprehensible version I what I just attempted there (and yes included all the possibilities stuff)... but you may be totally right. I don't really understand how these kinds of things come about but I'm an ENFP that also tests high in Ni as well. And when I read Ni descriptions...(I've never seen one like what I described though)...I recognize that I use my brain in that way. But it's all kinda jumbled up for me - so yah.

    I really liked what you said in your direct statement...but yah that's not even going to remotely work with him if he's not "feelin it". He'll just be like 'OOoooohhhh FUN GAME I WANT TO PLAY!!!!!'

    Are you able tell him you're confused about your feelings? Or is that going to make something 'real' before you want it to become 'real'?

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