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  1. #81
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Not even if that half a car turned out to be an amphibian car?

    I aint no fan of cars, but an amphibian car would definitely turn my head
    Nono, it starts with bending metaphors for him and ends with breast enlargement. No man should have so much power. The true challenge are those woman who are unbendable.
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  2. #82
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Nono, it starts with bending metaphors for him and ends with breast enlargement. No man should have so much power. The true challenge are those woman who are unbendable.


    Who said anything about him? Who is him?

    You're honestly opposed to personal growth?
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  3. #83
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    and consideration that maybe interpretation of their subjective experience as objectively more difficult might not work out in others' frameworks. I'm genuinely surprised because I thought Fi was all about recognizing your own experiences as valid and allowing others' experiences to be valid to them, too.
    Because I don't think this is what anyone is talking about. It's about feedback on how we're perceived. Instead of "how I experience myself" it's "how people tell me they experience me". So while ENFPs in general may experience as much "pain" as an INFP socially, they are generally perceived by others in a more positive light socially. The other ENFPs seem to agree with this, so maybe that makes you an outlier, not invalid.... I didn't really see anything in your posts prior to this which sounded like that though. I don't know what you feel is being invalidated, frankly.

    I don't know. Don't take this as personal, anyone, because it's not. It's just an overall impression that I feel like I've been trying to engage in the thread but there's like an invisible wall that I keep hitting where my answers just aren't what people are looking for. There's the chance that it has nothing to do with INFPs, and I just haven't written anything particularly interesting or remotely resonant to anyone in general, and there's a chance it has to do with confounding variables like Enneagram, but it could also be a valuable clue in that I feel like perhaps because I'm asking for a reconsideration of INFP internal experience, me and my information are not seen as particularly worth social consideration.
    Yes, because we're not really talking about internal experiences, but feedback & responses we get from others which show how we're perceived vs how we feel vs ideas about types which may not align with reality. Online, INFPs can be painted as silly & stupid & whiny, yet that doesn't necessarily align with feedback or responses we get in person (for me it does not).

    INFPs may feel like ultimately they're awesome ----> perceived badly & don't fully know why
    ENFPs may feel insecure & awkward ----> perceived more positively (of course not 100%), thus making them appear to have similar faults to INFPs, but more strengths to balance it out

    This is compounded when ENFPs come in & insist they have the same/worse struggles. It's like saying "I'm prettier AND I have all of your problems". In personality terms, INFPs are just the ugly sister, and not necessarily smarter, more insightful, kinder, funnier, etc. Although I wouldn't say anyone has actually done that, but it's come close to it, as evidenced by non NFP perceptions of this thread.

    My main points are to say INFPs are perceived more positively than they may realize & what holds them back is often the internal insecurity. There may an intimidation factor they don't consider because they feel intimidated & can't imagine others are seeing them as unapproachable (for example). This is feedback I was surprised to receive; it's not my internal experience. @Southern Kross mentioned her culture often prevents people from giving such feedback. I wouldn't say I get it all the time here in the US, but I have gotten direct feedback which clued me into how people see me, both positively & negatively. In comparing this with other INFPs, we have an idea of general INFP personality issues in the social realm vs personal, individual problems. The ENFP comparison to me is just wondering how people with similar traits manage to do a lot better, and it tends to be chalked up to better skills in the social realm (albeit, not perfect skills or without any struggles).
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  4. #84
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    ^ I am in complete concurrence with OA on the above.

    Perhaps a better title of this thread would have been me saying "INFP's, what do you see ENFP's doing well that you wish you could do better at?"

  5. #85
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Honestly, coz it feels like ENFPs input is being invalidated. Yes, I get it, you perceive us that way and perhaps other types do as well, but you aint the only one who has had feedback on their socially substandard skills.

    And I think ENFPS have gone out of their way to address what feels like a wrong perception of who we are, as well as relate how we perceive INFPs and how we feel others perceive INFPS and address what we admire in them.

    There is no coming in and going 'we have the same problems AND we re prettier'. There is just a contrasting experience and relating of our own perception with an emphasis on what we admire in you. I dont see how that is the put-down that you seem to imply was made.

    Yes, we have it easier to go out in social situations and do our thing coz we have trouble containing the energy. That does not mean we do not get smacked around for it at times and come home bludgeoned for daring to be ourselves. That is the risk you take. Granted, we do not get told we are unapproachable or cold. We get told we're inane, overly dramatic, childish and immature. Big whoop. It is definitely not the party you seem to think it is.

    I can relate to your plight. But don't tell me that you are our ugly little sister. You just have different strengths and different struggles to face.
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  6. #86
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    @Scott N Denver,

    I am sorry I haven't understood better. I suppose I just don't even understand "better social reception" as an objective thing - it's so multifaceted that I have trouble distilling to "better" and "worse". Being seen as lighthearted can be good in some situations and bad in others, for example. I do understand what you're saying about talking about that experience with others.

    Also - "Perhaps a better title of this thread would have been me saying "INFP's, what do you see ENFP's doing well that you wish you could do better at?" - this changes everything.

    Now I understand the thread as a whole.



    @OrangeAppled,

    In particular before Scott clarified that the thread is essentially about things he thought ENFPs were pretty decent at that INFPs might have a harder time with, I read many statements about how ENFPs are treated and what ENFPs are like in this thread. Some of them didn't ring true to me, so I'm frustrated that others might read this thread, develop ideas about what the ENFP experience is like based on this outside information, and act accordingly. Misinformation is very upsetting to me because it may negatively impact the way people are treated by others. I understand why INFPs wouldn't be particularly interested in my post content, as it's not about the INFP experience of social reception, but to me it seems vitally important because people can be very affected by what they read. I also believe that it is important for INFPs to try to understand what our experiences actually feel like for us if they're being used as a ruler, not just out of courtesy but also in the interest of accuracy. @Amargith phrased my additional feelings perfectly.

    What I have noted in observing INFPs socially is mostly less interaction, as opposed to particularly different interaction. I think ENFPs are also a little bit more willing to bend subject matter around others, whereas INFPs tend to concentrate a bit more on topics that are meaningful to them, but that too seems like it may be impacted by simply more content from the ENFP end. I read somewhere once that our auxiliary function is the one we use to connect to others, so @Scott N Denver's initial comment about ENFPs sharing their warmth and gooeyness makes sense in that light, whereas if INFPs are connecting with Ne it will be a more cerebral connection. If any INFPs would be interested in hearing how ENFPs perceive certain things, for additional understanding, I would be happy to explain, but other than that I will tune myself down in the thread in terms of sharing ENFP experience.

  7. #87
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Honestly, coz it feels like ENFPs input is being invalidated. Yes, I get it, you perceive us that way and perhaps other types do as well, but you aint the only one who has had feedback on their socially substandard skills.

    And I think ENFPS have gone out of their way to address what feels like a wrong perception of who we are, as well as relate how we perceive INFPs and how we feel others perceive INFPS and address what we admire in them.

    There is no coming in and going 'we have the same problems AND we re prettier'. There is just a contrasting experience and relating of our own perception with an emphasis on what we admire in you. I dont see how that is the put-down that you seem to imply was made.

    Yes, we have it easier to go out in social situations and do our thing coz we have trouble containing the energy. That does not mean we do not get smacked around for it at times and come home bludgeoned for daring to be ourselves. That is the risk you take. Granted, we do not get told we are unapproachable or cold. We get told we're inane, overly dramatic, childish and immature. Big whoop. It is definitely not the party you seem to think it is.

    I can relate to your plight. But don't tell me that you are our ugly little sister. You just have different strengths and different struggles to face.
    Amargith, I see what you are saying here. I jumped the gun slightly earlier when I said I stand in complete concurrence with OA. In a moment of wanting to quickly return to playing my video games on our snow day, I remembered what I agreed with from OA, and "conveniently" ["where is my video game!"] "forgot" what I'm not sure about. So, to be clear, I concur with OA about what I intended the point of this thread to be about: things us INFP's do that ENFP's seem to do better and getting second opinions on this matter from other INFP's. We all have challenges, and ENFP's are no exception. I'm personally not claiming that somehow ENFP's are socially perfect, and it is not my intent to downplay or ignore the social difficulties that ENFP's sometimes find themselves in. However, for a thread that I intended as a "what do ENFP's do well that it would behoove me to figure out and consider emulating", ENFP's weaknesses were not my primary interest. I do, however, appreciate the "more complete picture" that ENFP's are providing that point out some social difficulties that ENFP's can experience. This more complete picture is indeed helpful for me overall, though it is not what I am immediately looking for. As both you and I have said before, an ideal situation would be to have immediate access to the strengths of both ENFP's and INFP's.

    I see what OA is saying about the "INFP ugly sister" angle, but I'm not sure I agree with that point [larger perspectives are available]. For me, I dont directly compare INFP's and ENFP's that way, [in a limited situation I would ask who is more helpful for that particular situation, but at a strategic or overall level I just seem them as similar but different with different sets of strengths and weakness which are appropriate./useful or not appropriate/useful for different specific situations]. Perhaps I should have been more clear about that earlier...

    If others wish to pursue the "I hate it when wonderful ENFP's complain about how hard their social lives are" [was that Entropie several pages back?] or "INFP ugly duckling/sister angles" they are free to do so. For me, I see what they are saying, but its not something I would say, and its probably not something I would even particularly think. While not as many as I would like, I have had various ENFP friends and I was open about what I liked about them [energy, enthusiasm, spontaneity, well-intentioned, creative, fun!] and they were moderately clear what they liked about me [which I would extrapolate to other INFP's] [calming, grounding, soothing, considerate, thoughtful]. I think INFP's and ENFP's often make great teams or partners, and I don't intrinsically see one as better than the other. For me, this thread is about seeing desirable traits or skills or approaches of ENFP's that I wish I was better at. Afterwords I can work on how to start making said changes.

    So, just for the record, I should have more correctly said earlier "I agree with OA's post, but this ugly duckling/comparison angle is beyond my scope and interest, and not an opinion that I personally hold."

    As a person who has not known all that many ENFP's, and probably every single one I've known has been as an adult not when I was a child, it has been very interesting to me hearing about some of the social struggles that ENFP's sometimes face. It's been largely beyond the immediate scope of what I was looking for in this thread. So, standing back now and seeing a larger picture than what I was originally aiming for, I want to say thank you to both you and skylights, and other ENFP's if I've forgotten them, for your contributions on bringing up ENFP social difficulties. If it feels to you all like I have not "adequately acknowledged" your contributions in this matter let me just say that earlier I was focused on a particular small picture, but in the larger picture I am thankful for your contributions. Does that help at all?

  8. #88
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    There is just a contrasting experience and relating of our own perception with an emphasis on what we admire in you.
    As a type, or rather, your perceptions of INFPs you've met. But that doesn't necessarily align with feedback we receive as individuals, just as our perceptions of ENFPs we know (or even noting general perceptions of these people from others or hearing others' views of them) doesn't necessarily align with feedback you receive.

    For the most part, it has seemed to, which is why I still don't get the issue right now.

    I want to emphasize FEEDBACK over PERCEPTION here too. When I mentioned ENFPs in here & how they are received, it's not just my perception, but words I have heard from other people, and actions I've witnessed, and confessions they've made. Of course this is through my filter, but not everything is so open to interpretation that it's all chalked up to personal spin. When I say ENFPs I've known are/were often taken less seriously, it's because I have ample evidence, some which is direct commentary from other people & even these individual ENFPs themselves. It's not a guess based mostly on how I see them.

    I think INFPs may be looking for concreteness here because we struggle with it, and that is something ENFPs may relate to also.

    You just have different strengths and different struggles to face.
    True.

    But the idea is that the supposed strengths of INFPs are not noted, valued or even applicable to us as ordinary individuals in everyday life because of the specific social hurdles we face, not because other types don't have problems socially. Lots of positives attributed to INFPs online in general are not relatable to me or don't align with feedback I get in person; a lot of it sounds like ISFJs I know (and perhaps this is an enneagram issue) or it's necessary to be an extraordinary INFP. If some INFPs aren't getting this positive feedback in person, then they're left with a big question mark on what is good about them that others see and value. We're not simply commiserating, but comparing notes & gathering info, to do what we will with it.

    As far as Fi-dom creating refined beauty but unable to "sell" it - well there's the issue. And I DO appreciate when someone else sees the vision without needing it to be proved and when they will promote it, but this is a crapshoot. The sense of not being in control is frustrating. Am I at the mercy of someone else's whims? Well, no, I don't think so. And I don't think the ENFP way is a way that will work for me though.
    What I think works is being MORE INFP, neither defensively nor apologetically.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I have read many statements about how ENFPs are treated and what ENFPs are like in this thread. Some of them don't ring true to me, so I'm frustrated that others might read this thread, develop ideas about what the ENFP experience is like based on this outside information, and act accordingly. Misinformation, in particular about things I identify with, is very upsetting to me because it may negatively impact the way I am treated by others. I understand why INFPs wouldn't be particularly interested in my post content, as it's not about the INFP experience of social reception, but to me it seems vitally important because people can be very affected by what they read. However, I believe that it is very important for INFPs to understand what it actually feels like for us if we're being used as a ruler, otherwise it's not really "ENFPs" that are being compared but an internal concept of ENFPery.
    @Amargith phrased my additional feelings perfectly.

    What I have noted in observing INFPs socially is mostly less interaction, as opposed to particularly different interaction. I think ENFPs are also a little bit more willing to bend subject matter around others, whereas INFPs tend to concentrate a bit more on topics that are meaningful to them, but that too seems like it may be impacted by simply more content from the ENFP end. I read somewhere once that our auxiliary function is the one we use to connect to others, so @Scott N Denver's initial comment about ENFPs sharing their warmth and gooeyness makes sense in that light, whereas if INFPs are connecting with Ne it will be a more cerebral connection.
    Or rather, experience with ENFPs IRL and noting how others respond to them, what others say about them, how they express what they feel, and comparing that to feedback & responses we get about ourselves.

    I totally get the annoyance with a misrepresentation of your type. I just don't see where it lies here... No one has said ENFPs don't have problems or flaws. What is the misrepresentation?

    I find myself a very different beast from ENFPs demeanor-wise. I'd be surprised if anyone ever confused me with one in person even in my most animated, charming moments. That's why my first post says I never found ENFPs relatable until I saw more of their thinking online, as opposed to demeanor in person. The similarities I see in xNFPs are not in the realm of demeanor, and it's this difference that's being explored. How does this affect what we can accomplish?

    And I definitely agree with your latter observation. But I think this IS a different way of interacting then, not just interacting less.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  9. #89
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Thank you for your feedback. I very much appreciated the expanded explanations, and feel sort of weird about demanding them in the first place (Te? )

    Honestly though, I feel like we are finally on the same page. And yes, I recognise that this *is* an INFP thread. So, time to get back to the heart of this thread.

    Let us focus on INFPs wanting to reach a larger audience.

    I think that @OrangeAppled is correct that the key is to be more INFP instead of ENFP. You do not want to get our bad traits while you pursue our good ones, and lose the very traits that make people actually love about you. The calmness, the seriousness, the non-flakiness (compared to ENFPs). And paradoxally, I think you do this by accessing your Ne. It is your secondary function, and MBTI theory does say that developing your second function matures all the others as well, and progresses you in life.

    As Ne-dom, I try to reign in my Ne all the time when Im in a group to not overwhelm people and exhaust them, coz we can be really hard to follow when we go stream-of-consciousness. It has a wow-factor for sure, but people cant keep up.

    Ive seen INFPs use their Ne however in a much more relaxing and chill way, in a playful way, fully intended on connecting with others. Kind of like an amuse bouche. The strength is just enough to amuse and endear people without exhausting them, to entertain them if that is the point without scaring them off. And it works as a perfect icebreaker to then go into a more serious grounded conversation on the beliefs and ideas of that INFP. And I think that this is the magic of a mature INFP. Those Ive watched have no problem getting people intrigued in who the are, with a bit of banter, to then share their wisdom and have people basically gather round to listen, much like a shaman tells stories around a fire. And once you guys get talking about what is inside your head, and share it with the group, it is like a soothing blanket for the dreams of insight to come. People start thinking about things automatically because you give them your ideas in story format, the most natural way for people to learn.

    And *that* is what I think you should go for. It keeps your best qualities (calm, wise, grounded, insightful) while tapping into your Ne just enough to break the ice and move the convo to fertile ground to spread your ideas.
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  10. #90
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post


    Who said anything about him? Who is him?

    You're honestly opposed to personal growth?
    No I meant that nobody should bend him- or herself to someone elses wishes.

    When I met my infp girl the one thing I liked about her was her unbendable nature. Stubborn would be a too light word for what I experienced firstly . It was pretty much her way or the highway and I liked that so much, cause no matter how much of a tough guy I pretend to be in earlier times, I was always looking for a relationship with a woman I could trust completly. I was very famous for my picky nature and I was better at bombarding every potential relationship in the first second, before actually giving myself into the challenge and start a serious relationship. With that girl tho this was different, besides the fact that she was trustworthy, she also sees the world like I always did (Ne). And that is like winning the lottery at my place.

    Since I was best at criticizing people, I of course in the first years criticized her unbendable nature. Her strong subjective opinion forming with Fi blinded her in many things for other options and thats still a problem for her until today. Nevertheless I noticed a different phaenomena and that was her starting to do things like I would want it. I was shocked by that at first, cause me being a very assertive person with a trained estj inside on the business level who wants things to be done right and yesterday if possible, felt that if I may have manipulated her or changed her. So I talked with her about that and she said that I had become family for her and that she would care for me. That came like a great shock to me at first cause I felt like a patriarch cause I have never experienced her to care much for anyone.

    This was me (socionics alpha quadra - value independence) and her (socionics beta quadra - value family or close circle of friends they like). I have learnt more about trust and compassion that day than I'd known before. I am still not confident with conciously changing myself for somebody, but my relieving element would be Fe here. Fe motivates me do care about others and to listen to them, so that I'd appear less INTJ which would be the master regarding being independent.

    So I have become part of her subjective Fi world, emotionally, like she has become part of my subjective Fi (which I'd firstly notice the moment she would be gone). And that changed us both and would be personal growth yes. In my personal opinion it was good that in her I have found a patient partner to let that develop in me, otherwise I am pretty much sure I'd ended up incapable of forming lasting relationship and would have prolly become someone I wouldnt have liked.

    I was a bit disappointed by this thread on first sight, cause this 'infp wanting to be more enfp' is a 'infp wanting to be more social butterflies' and thats what society tells us, but its not what all people want. Especially with americans societal pressure is so high on them that they have no chance to become independent thinkers and make themselves free from what society tells them to be. Infps on the one hand have the highest potential to rebel against and will naturally no matter how much they integrate themselves, always stay unicorns. Their dominant subjective nature will always make them perceive things their way and they will never become 'the word of the crowd'. Yet they have no intention to rebel against, on the contrary they are more shocked by the dumbness of people and would try to make the world a better place if given the chance or retreat to their nutshells and find better worlds in books, movies and games. They are no idealistic victims who by all means need a perfect world, on the contrary their fantasy and intuition is fueled by the things that go wrong, but they can only take that much real world and then need a break. As an Ti person I understand that perfectly.

    The biggest problem for infps imo is knowing their strengths and knowing themselves. Seeing themselves objectively or trieing to is virtually impossible. They are more inclined to entrust themselves with lesser competency than they actually have and to not dare anything. Since they know that, they are prone to undertaking extreme risks at young age to maybe proof something to themselves I dont know.
    The only real solution for that is finding someone that becomes part of your wolf pack or having a family member or good friend that is already. Those people then should be asked for the objective perception of the infp and then the infp needs time to understand that, sometimes several years. Of course and I understand that aswell, it's hard to find the right person and takes time.

    My girlfriend has become emotionally stronger cause I dont mask critic but blow it out as tough as possible. Her newly found inner peace has made her stronger in society thats at least my feeling. Still you need patience when you want a reaction from her. Patience to the point when you want to struggle her for a reaction. But I have grown custom to that and she gets better day after day. The only thing what wouldnt be good and that brings me back to the topic of the thread, is the moment when infps start to compare themselves to other people. This wouldnt work for enfps as well, cause the subjective nature of Fi makes you all unicorns. And it is good that way, for many many many men I know are looking for a unicorn in a woman (apology to the NFP guys).
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