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  1. #71
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Just because someone seems to be receiving positive responses externally, it doesn't mean they feel any less pain internally. For me it was a long, hard, learned path to social fluidity. I went through a lot of embarrassment, a lot of faux pas, a lot of teasing, some messed up behavior, terrible self-esteem, and a lot of rejection before I got to the place I am now - and most of what I know I learned by mimicking my ESFJ mom and other FJ friends. I keep hearing this message "ENFPs are better socially" over and over and it's so frustrating to hear that when my social experience has been anything but easy.
    I agree with this. From an outsider's point of view, you think I'd get along with my ESTP friend great and that we're best friends. And while she is one of my closest friends, literally every day I see her she'll say something that makes me either irritated or upset. But I usually just shrug it off and internalize it.

    It also depends on what aspects of the social world you're talking about. Sure, ENFPs make for great conversation because of their upbeat attitude and quirky personality but if we're talking about aligning yourself with society's standards I would say we're not that great. Ne+Fi really clashes with Fe (at least in my experience) and I think ENFPs in the social world are frequently misunderstood a lot of the time. I often get dismissed with comments like "Haha oh my god, you're so weird" if I show an interest in something/say something/act someway that's off the beaten path. I think people peg me and probably other ENFPs as one of those "weird" people who it's socially acceptable to be friends with because they've made a name for themselves via their quirkiness. This is probably due to Ne-dom and why ENFPs are viewed as more socially competent than INFPs who are Fi-dom. But I think NFPs in general are awesome people and should be appreciated for who they are and not what they're perceived to be. Neither type seems inadequate to me because they both have their strengths and weaknesses.

    That being said, the last two sentences can apply to any type.
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  2. #72
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    There is a reason I strive to be an xNFP hybrid; nothing like flipping between the two to get the best of both worlds: being taken serious and understood to be capable of depth and beauty, calm, and clear on what you believe and feel as well as socially engaging, approachable and able to see things from all angles sounds pretty awesome.
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  3. #73
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    There is a reason I strive to be an xNFP hybrid; nothing like flipping between the two to get the best of both worlds: being taken serious and understood to be capable of depth and beauty, calm, and clear on what you believe and feel as well as socially engaging, approachable and able to see things from all angles sounds pretty awesome.

    I'm totally with Amargith on this one. As a minor terminology clarification, I'm not sure I'd say I wish to become a XNFP hybrid so as much as I'd say "I'd like to be able to play in both worlds." Those two statements seem almost synonymous to me, though I perceive mine as dealing more with how things manifest or are expressed. Anyways

    I dont appreciate having my thread called stupid or pointless or whatever. I would expect that Ne doms would better understand the notion of "collective brainstorming" and "playing with ideas to see what comes out of them or alternative ways to connect the dots." From where I sit this thread has highlighted both the strengths of ENFP's and INFP's, while allowing me to publicly converse with some other INFP's about shared experiences and perceptions. That is more than I was ever looking for or hoping for from this thread.

    Whether this is ultimately fair or correct, I tend to see ENFP's and INFP's as largely opposite sides of the same coin. ENFP's often tend to do certain things better than INFP's often tend to. As a person who likes to watch others and see what they do well and learn from them, I enjoy watching and learning from ENFP's and trying to imitate or emulate what they do well. I'm sure that ENFP's see things that we as INFP's often tend to do better [for example ENFP's might get told they are weird eventually , whereas some of us INFP's {myself, OA, SK have all talked about this} being viewed as weird/intense/challenging/uncomfortable right out of the gate and then simply socially avoided from the getgo]. Some of those things have been pointed out in this thread. A wise ENFP would see those as learning opportunities and grow from them.

    I dont think INFP's are deficient compared to ENFP's. I also don't think that ENFP's are deficient compared to INFP's. I have enjoyed commiserating with fellow INFP's about certain shared experiences, and I also appreciate the input from ENFP's on these topics as well.

    NFP's are awesome!

  4. #74
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Enfp's faces are inadequate
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  5. #75
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    INFP's, do you ever feel inadequate compared to ENFP's?
    No, not really. I am usually taken way more seriously which compensates for any ease I imagine they benefit from in social situations.

    I am struggling to decide what to say in here. One way will sound like a lecture. Another way, a sermon. And yet another, like I have no empathy or compassion.

    Maybe I will just briefly tell my story and take from it what you will.

    In my 20's, faced with a desire to be more engaged in the life around me, I decided to learn how to be more extroverted in my approach. Upon reflection, that was basically the thrust of the whole decade. I believed I was at least capable of anything I set my mind to. That belief I think was a very valuable motivator.

    I watched how people interacted and learned the social scripts. I worked in sales, cold-calling clients (to learn how to be comfortable with a variety of social skills.) I modeled (to get comfortable with my own body and presence.) I agreed to lead committees in the charities I volunteered with (to be ok with making decisions, speaking in front of others, and gaining leadership skills.) I got involved with the world.

    I sang solos at church. Oh, how terrified I was to do that. People would say, "I could NEVER do what you do up there." Yet if they were in my body they would certainly know I feel as much or more fear than they ever could.

    If I was afraid, I did it anyway. Except for sky-diving and giving blood. Last time I tried to donate I had a terrible migraine, replete with aura and the like. Still have those on my list, though. Repeating Se stuff that scared me in the past, now patterned into Si, is sometimes the hardest. Oh, I still have flying lessons on my list too. Almost did that when we were living in Wisconsin.

    This saying was kind of a mantra:

    We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face. We must do that which we think we cannot.
    -Eleanor Roosevelt

    There's nothing in there about it getting easier. After years of singing in front of others and still feeling scared, every time, I realized this to be the truth. I thought the fear would go away. Doesn't. And that is somehow ok.

    Sometimes I have panic attacks when the stimulation builds high. It's how my body lets off the steam, and they can be a challenge. Yet FWIW, I would rather have my voice heard and say something imperfectly, shaking, wobbly voice, with my knees knocking in fear, than not hear the sound of my own voice making a contribution as valid as anyone else's thought.

    It's our challenge point perhaps? Maybe it's what we are here to learn, somehow? To be heard in our own special way? What's inadequate about being here to grow? All of life is practice, not a destination to reach, it's all just practice, practice, practice.

    I can't presume to know how easy it is for ENFP's to socialize, so I don't. I note the people in my world who communicate with ease and sincerity, and I seek to emulate the skills I admire. And somehow, they become my own through the belief that I can attain them. Weird thing that.

    I do commiserate, but see little point in relating on the topic without putting a plan into action to attain that which I sense I lack.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #76
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    I dont appreciate having my thread called stupid or pointless or whatever. I would expect that Ne doms would better understand the notion of "collective brainstorming" and "playing with ideas to see what comes out of them or alternative ways to connect the dots." From where I sit this thread has highlighted both the strengths of ENFP's and INFP's, while allowing me to publicly converse with some other INFP's about shared experiences and perceptions. That is more than I was ever looking for or hoping for from this thread.
    I would prefer to just be addressed than to beat around the bush, honestly. I don't believe your thread to be stupid or pointless, though it's true that I don't understand what the point is and am straightforward in admitting that. Brainstorming isn't brainstorming when it's repeating the same idea over and over in different variations without room for external input. External input is the point of brainstorming. This thread, for the most part, has not been Ne-Fi brainstorming. It's been Fi-Si rumination. We're still going over the same point that we were at 8 pages ago. If this were Ne-Fi brainstorming, we'd be talking about spaceships by now, or kittens, or tantric sex, or rainbows. Or we would have looped away and back a number of times. But it's been steady and regulated, and that's not brainstorming.

    I have enjoyed commiserating with fellow INFP's
    Right. I'm glad (genuinely) if you get something out of that. I guess I'm really not the type to enjoy that sort of thing at all and I'm usually very frustrated by it, because I don't understand it. Obviously that's not your fault and I don't hold that against you, but I am frustrated that there doesn't seem to be more regard for the external in a thread that is about INFPs struggling with the external.

    This thread demonstrates to me a facet of why some INFPs may be experiencing social adequacy issues: it seems like some approach the external world like it needs to give them something before they give to it. I understand and empathize that introversion may make it more challenging to express and demonstrate outward. All I'm saying is that all the external world needs to be more receptive is engagement. This thread as it stands is a huge example of non-engagement, and I'm trying to make that clear. I think maybe some introverts aren't even aware of the degree to which they engage with their own ideas more than being receptive to external stimuli - and that can make other people feel disregarded, because they are being disregarded, even if there is no malintent.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby
    I got involved with the world. [...] All of life is practice, not a destination to reach, it's all just practice, practice, practice.
    Yes.

  7. #77
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I would prefer to just be addressed than to beat around the bush, honestly. I don't believe your thread to be stupid or pointless, though it's true that I don't understand what the point is and am straightforward in admitting that. Brainstorming isn't brainstorming when it's repeating the same idea over and over in different variations without room for external input. External input is the point of brainstorming. This thread, for the most part, has not been Ne-Fi brainstorming. It's been Fi-Si rumination. We're still going over the same point that we were at 8 pages ago. If this were Ne-Fi brainstorming, we'd be talking about spaceships by now, or kittens, or tantric sex, or rainbows. Or we would have looped away and back a number of times. But it's been steady and regulated, and that's not brainstorming.
    I apologize for not knowing how to do a multi-quote over multiple pages. I saw amargith's reply and wished to quote it instead of quoting from you. If I knew how to multipage multiquote I probably would have.

    fwiw I have read and reflected upon what you have had to say throughout this thread, and appreciate your inputs about "introverts just engage the rest of the world already!" I can not speak for others, but I have taken your external input. I probably feel little or no need to speak about it however. It would appear that you and I have different ideas of what constitutes brainstorming, at least in this matter. Perhaps more correctly it appears that where we "expect the brainstorming to manifest" is different. For me its in my personal life, not this thread.

    If I watched an olympic marathon runner I would go "holy schnikeys, I feel like my running skills are very lacking." To me, thats not so much a statement that I suck as it is that they are really good at something, and if I wanted to get good at what they are good at I should pay attention to what they do and try to incorporate some of it.

    In a martial art I formerly studied [moved, couldnt find it again], we talked a lot about "weak points" and how to fix them. In that worldview, it wasnt as important to be good at some things as it was to be "not bad at anything." "Sukki" I believe was the japanese word for that.

    My intention for this thread, as already stated at least twice [though not in the specific words that follow], was to analyze particular "sukki" and get feedback form other INFP's to see if we generally held similar stances or not, and to see if they had additional inputs that I had not thought about or had overlooked. It was never my intention in this thread to perform "general social engagement." If others wish to do so they may. If you wish to start a thread dealing with "why dont INFP's socially engage more?!?" you are free to do so.

    We all speak from our own biases and experiences. My background is very (S)TJ heavy and (E)FP-lacking. You have written here about being more used to Fe, your own history of social awkwardness, and your sometimes lack in thoroughly reading things and quickly jumping to conclusions. It seems to me like both of our backgrounds are reflected in how we see the value of this thread. No one is forced to be or post here, and anyone is free to start a new thread on some other topic if they so wish. I got what I am looking for from this thread, and general social engagement directly from this thread [as opposed to on my own in my own personal life] was never part of my aim so its apparent lack does not concern me. In my own personal life I will make some changes and additions, and see that I "have more options available now." To me that is moving beyond brainstorming and engaging in the world. I appreciate your inputs along the way, have noted them internally, and they are involved in certain personal adaptations I will perform over time.

  8. #78
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    No, not really. I am usually taken way more seriously which compensates for any ease I imagine they benefit from in social situations.

    I am struggling to decide what to say in here. One way will sound like a lecture. Another way, a sermon. And yet another, like I have no empathy or compassion.

    Maybe I will just briefly tell my story and take from it what you will.


    I do commiserate, but see little point in relating on the topic without putting a plan into action to attain that which I sense I lack.
    I do enjoy "tough love PB." For me, brainstorming and information collection is here, some processing is here some internal, then adjustments in my own personal life.

    As Amar said earlier, and as I've basically said before somewhere or other, having access to the strengths of both types would be the ideal situation.

  9. #79
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    There is a reason I strive to be an xNFP hybrid; nothing like flipping between the two to get the best of both worlds: being taken serious and understood to be capable of depth and beauty, calm, and clear on what you believe and feel as well as socially engaging, approachable and able to see things from all angles sounds pretty awesome.
    I wouldnt want only one half of a car
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  10. #80
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I wouldnt want only one half of a car
    Not even if that half a car turned out to be an amphibian car?

    I aint no fan of cars, but an amphibian car would definitely turn my head
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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