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  1. #31
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    jumping off that to a question i have being holding off in agony for Fe reasons i do not currently remember:

    why are you guys arguing on who is more inadequate? "i got fucked by life more.. no i was!"
    what is this competition for martyrdom?

    with NTs you get people arguing on whose more intellectually competence, somehow you'd expect people here to argue similarly on some levels of emotional intelligence, but instead.... i'm not sure how to explain it, it's like you're arguing on whose angst is more legitimate.
    It is not about that, it's about determining which parts are genuinly who you are and which parts you can grow into. Contrast and comparison with someone you admire because of certain traits and skills is one way to accomplish that, especially if you then get to peek behind the curtain as to why they feel they aren't gods greatest gift on earth either. It helps clarify Fi, in a way.
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  2. #32
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    jumping off that to a question i have being holding off in agony for Fe reasons i do not currently remember:

    why are you guys arguing on who is more inadequate? "i got fucked by life more.. no i was!"
    what is this competition for martyrdom?

    with NTs you get people arguing on whose more intellectually competence, somehow you'd expect people here to argue similarly on some levels of emotional intelligence, but instead.... i'm not sure how to explain it, it's like you're arguing on whose angst is more legitimate.
    They care, we dont. We'll gonna see at the end how it plays out for us
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #33
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    jumping off that to a question i have being holding off in agony for Fe reasons i do not currently remember:

    why are you guys arguing on who is more inadequate? "i got fucked by life more.. no i was!"
    what is this competition for martyrdom?

    with NTs you get people arguing on whose more intellectually competence, somehow you'd expect people here to argue similarly on some levels of emotional intelligence, but instead.... i'm not sure how to explain it, it's like you're arguing on whose angst is more legitimate.
    Hm... I didn't think I was arguing that. I was trying to point out INFP strengths without insulting ENFPs or being delusional, and showing how INFP "problems" have an upside.

    ----

    Another point, Scott, is that you're likely judging yourself more harshly than people are probably judging you (except @sleuthiness perhaps, who may really hate you). It's projection of inferior Te. All the imbalanced, unfounded criticisms you hurl at yourself are being projected onto others, so that how you feel about yourself is what you think they feel about you, as if this is objective feedback & not emotional noise. Because for us, emotional noise is Te. Fi is clarity of what's significant & really worth a monkey's butt.

    And don't let your admiration & love of ENFPs turn into resentment. It's the worst when people do that! That's a lose-lose...
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #34
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Honestly, I don't think many, if any, INFP 7s exist.

    The two are pretty damn antithetical to one another.



    I don't think ESFPs are really all that warm and gooey -- more like bubbly, air-headed, and outgoing.

    ESFPs can often be cold and sharp (and shallow) in a way that ENFPs generally aren't.

    That's why ENFPs are often so much more enjoyable than ESFPs.
    I suspect you see the cold sharpness in the ESFPs, as they have harder time protecting themselves from the world, than the typical "not-quite-present-in-reality" ENFP does. I love esfps though, as once you peel away that bit of steel, they are really forgiving and just open in away enfps are not.

  5. #35
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    jumping off that to a question i have being holding off in agony for Fe reasons i do not currently remember:

    why are you guys arguing on who is more inadequate? "i got fucked by life more.. no i was!"
    what is this competition for martyrdom?

    with NTs you get people arguing on whose more intellectually competence, somehow you'd expect people here to argue similarly on some levels of emotional intelligence, but instead.... i'm not sure how to explain it, it's like you're arguing on whose angst is more legitimate.
    A trend I noted:

    Ti (with Fe?) when behaving "badly" trends towards inflation of the importance and significance of oneself relative to others.
    Fi instead, trends towards devaluation of the self relative to others and being too critical with respect to what one is/has done.

    Both seem to deviate somewhat from the actual truth of the matter

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    jumping off that to a question i have being holding off in agony for Fe reasons i do not currently remember:

    why are you guys arguing on who is more inadequate? "i got fucked by life more.. no i was!"
    what is this competition for martyrdom?

    with NTs you get people arguing on whose more intellectually competence, somehow you'd expect people here to argue similarly on some levels of emotional intelligence, but instead.... i'm not sure how to explain it, it's like you're arguing on whose angst is more legitimate.
    it seems like most people have pretty much ignored the original question -- which would make it seem like a competition for martyrdom -- and instead given pretty even-handed comparisons of the two types' social roles and strengths. it's just interesting to think about how different facets of yourself could grow, and a good way of doing that is learning from types with the same functions / different order.

  7. #37
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    jumping off that to a question i have being holding off in agony for Fe reasons i do not currently remember:

    why are you guys arguing on who is more inadequate? "i got fucked by life more.. no i was!"
    what is this competition for martyrdom?

    with NTs you get people arguing on whose more intellectually competence, somehow you'd expect people here to argue similarly on some levels of emotional intelligence, but instead.... i'm not sure how to explain it, it's like you're arguing on whose angst is more legitimate.


    It's what @Amargith said, and also I think it's a combination of trying to be compassionate but authentic at the same time. I felt frustrated by the OP because it didn't feel authentic to my experience - I have struggled very much socially in my life, and I rarely have felt socially celebrated without fighting hard for it. On the other hand, I also felt bad for any INFPs who were feeling inadequate. So proper Fi/Te etiquette says to expose one's personal experience, because it will naturally, inherently demonstrate perspective that can level out these feelings of inadequacy, since it ought to expose the underlying truth / Fi value that ENFPs and INFPs are of the same worth.

    I echo the comments on the coolness and steadfastness of healthy INFPs. It's really something enviable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I also really get tired of the whole 'oh god she is so bubbly and sweet, she must be an airhead'-thing. It doesnt help that people stamp me 'Barbie' due to my appearance (another reason I dont post pics online, its nice not to have that work against me for once). Granted, it is a fun thing to use against them and let them underestimate me in every way, but still. If I decide to present myself the first time in a goofy and silly way, I have to work thrice as hard afterwards to get them to take me seriously on *anything*. And god forbid I explain something in a passionate way while trying to joke about it so it doesn't come off as scary, coz then it just confuses the hell out of them: is she serious, is she joking, should I be running coz she is that intense, what?

    So the whole social butterfly card we can play has its perks, for sure, if you learn how to use it properly. But it has a buttload of downsides as well, especially if you let it get away from you. You'll overload people, tire them out, overstimulate them, make them resent you, they'll assume you re an airhead with no depth whatsoever and therefore really only have one purpose: entertainment. And sure, they'll seek you out for that. But if you don't watch yourself, that is all they'll want from you. And if you oblige them, they'll feel entitled and get pissy if you dare to turn off the silly facade, coz they want you to dance, monkey, DANCE! :rolleyes


    Especially in combination with being female, I feel like we have to work very hard to prove our core seriousness, because people tend to just take us at face value and assume we're sort of useless bubbly airheads. Inside our heads we naturally run graveness and levity at the same time, but if we try to present that to others, it almost always fails - in deciding how to communicate, we're generally forced to choose between the two if we want a good response. Either way feels less authentic and covers less ground, which is frustrating.


    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Appled
    I think our usually superior Si makes us better with personal priorities. We're probably better at boundary setting & knowing how real world experiences connect to our valuations. That combined with being Fi-dom means we may better understand and adhere to our convictions. I would like to call this "integrity", but I don't want ENFPs coming at me with pitchforks & saying I've implied they lack it :P.
    Well played.

    I understand what you're talking about... what I would say about ENFP integrity is that we have less of a developed Fi rooting, so we simply have less convictions in general to stand for, I think. The ones we have we stand for strongly (so, yes, we would probably have gotten offended, lol), but in general, we're more interested in the information in and of itself than in its value. Our convictions probably also tend to be more global, because we spend less time refining them, while INFPs have probably gotten deeper into the nitty-gritty of what they believe in and support and what they do not. I would identify "integrity" as one of those universal character measurements that spans across types, and is demonstrated by different types in different ways, but I definitely agree that INFPs are stronger - perhaps the strongest of all types - in terms of prioritizing their values.

    INFPs definitely have a more subtle, nuanced valuation of the world, with more immediate understanding of where everything falls in the scheme of being important. I think for ENFPs, a lot of things are "OOH SHINY" to our perception, and are intriguing enough to capture our attention for long periods of time even though they aren't necessarily particularly important to our lives. INFPs are curious and open too, but seem to be better at limiting their distractions and focusing on what is most meaningful.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    It is not about that, it's about determining which parts are genuinly who you are and which parts you can grow into. Contrast and comparison with someone you admire because of certain traits and skills is one way to accomplish that, especially if you then get to peek behind the curtain as to why they feel they aren't gods greatest gift on earth either. It helps clarify Fi, in a way.
    I totally concur with Amar here [other than clarifying Fi, since its already my dom function], and I know I've spoken/written with her before on exactly this topic. I've written elsewhere that I consider ENFP's to be my "growth direction". The overlap between them and myself is quite obvious, but I sometimes totally envy their social/oratory/group/communications skills/approaches. When I have something to say to the world, especially if I am "sharing my passion" I feel like I want to take "social presentation" lessons from ENFP's. fwiw I spent a lot of time around INTP's, the similarity there is obvious as well, but many people apparently find INTP's somewhat socially boring. Historically I often communicated in a more INTP fashion and, quite frankly, results were mixed at best. Communicating one on one basically seemed to lead many people to think that I am some sort of "delicate flower" or something, and best avoided as weak and not assertive enough [cough Te's cough]. ENFP's, or maybe I should say "many of the ENFP's I have personally known", seem much more socially effective than I seem to have been.


    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    And don't let your admiration & love of ENFPs turn into resentment. It's the worst when people do that! That's a lose-lose...
    Believe me I will not start resenting ENFP's. I feel like I am one of their biggest and most constant cheerleaders. Most of the ones I've met are rather outspoken. I'm definitely calmer and more soothing. We seem to function very well together and naturally support in each other.

    I wonder if one of the things that can go wrong is INFP's coming across to "intellectual" or "my emotions are not as important as my deep thoughts." I feel like some ISTJ's have, understandably, seen me this way, and that lots of INTJ's were "bad influences" and "contributed" to me sometimes coming across that way??? ENFP's, or at least the ones I've seen, don't seem to have the issue of "appearing disconnected from their emotions" or "being too intellectual." Perhaps ENFP's are often seen as "not intellectual enough", but I haven't traveled enough in whatever circles to have personally experienced that. For the record, I met very few ENFP's in my life until well into my adult years.

    I don't think that all ENFP's somehow are "gifted with great social skills and interest", and I'm sure many have "growing pains" or whatnot, but again I didnt meet many ENFP's until i was well into adulthood and therefore have seen or know very little about what ENFP childhood/teenage/development years are like.

    In general, in my opinion, of the ENFP's I've seen and met, ENFP's do a much better job of "putting themself out there" than do INFP's. I spoke elsewhere before, and OA concurred, that one thing I sorta envy about ENFP's is that us INFP's will say something, perhaps somewhat odd or out there, and people seem to see us as "prickly" or something and act likes its a big deal and undesirable. Then we see an ENFP say the same thing, or something similar, or something even stronger than what we said, and its like people all smile and take them gently and are like "your so creative and interesting and enthusiastic" or whatnot.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    it ought to expose the underlying truth / Fi value that ENFPs and INFPs are of the same worth.

    I echo the comments on the coolness and steadfastness of healthy INFPs. It's really something enviable.
    I dont think that ENFP's and INFP's are of different overall worth. I do think that, in what I've seen of them [which again is virtually all in my adult life], that ENFP's are generally more socially accepted and well-recieved, particularly by strong-E's and by groups [as opposed to one-on-one's]. EP provides a very "in the moment" approach to life. Fi is basically an "invisible" cognitive/jungian function. Ne, often, gets people to see things in new ways, or at the very least gives off this very interesting/quirky/"fresh" vibe. Its much easier to see and "do something with" than is Fi. In terms of how externally visible our cognitive functions are, INFP's end up being very much like INTP's. At least ISFP's have that secondary Se [physical engagement, aestheticness] going for them.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    I dont know if others would ultimately concur or not, but I would describe the difference between a well-developed ENFP and a well-developed INFP as the difference between a flashlight and a laser. IME as a laser, its often too intense for many people to deal with, whereas a flashlight is more relatable and less ?intimidating?

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