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  1. #31
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Offer the evidence and don't expect to see the person acquiesce right in the moment. They are going to need some time to mull it over and then to decide whether it is of enough import to totally rebuilt their internal structure on the topic (which also takes time). Just because you don't see them agreeing with you right away doesn't necessarily mean they aren't hearing you.

    Also, like I said before, giving time for the INFJ to see your credibility as a person is helpful. Don't green eggs and ham them before they have had a chance to see you as having a good handle on whatever it is you are trying to advise them on and know that you also understand their perspective. Ask them questions from a friendly vantage point about how they arrived at the perspective they did, so that you can see where the missing information or flaw in reasoning is and more effectively address it. When we do buy into something, we do so wholeheartedly, so just be patient.

    For me, familiarity with the person also makes a big difference. Give me some time for you to grow on me and you'll get better results. I'll either be able to better articulate what the impediment is, or else I'll come to appreciate you as a person enough that I will be more open to hearing something if it really matters to you. If you try to leap over this process, I'll turtle up and become very resistant to hearing what you have to say. The harder you push, the less successful you will be. I've learned for myself over time that pressured decision making rarely turns out well. I also need some time to observe before I feel like I am oriented enough to determine what are trustworthy pieces of information/sources and what are not.

    By nature I think INFJs are cautious people and a little risk avoidant. I would prefer to stay with the familiar I know than the unfamiliar whose results I'm not sure of. Once I'm convinced that the results justify the discomfort or effort, I'm willing to make the jump to the unfamiliar.

    The process of change for me is like an oven, which is slow to heat up, but slow to cool down vs a gas burner which will instantly burn and instantly quit.

  2. #32
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    i've noticed ISFJs do this a lot more consistently then INFJs, so i don't believe this is Ni related as much as it is Fe suppressing Ti. basically, i think this stems from FJs feeling more confident in their ability to judge a person then in their ability to judge an argument.

    not all of them do this with the same frequently, and the one's that do so less share the same trait:
    to put it bluntly, they are smarter. not only because of this - but as a whole - more intellectually competent.

    here you have a chicken & egg dilemma: have they developed their intelligence because they took the effort to examine arguments and thoughts they would otherwise dismiss, or they had to be intelligent enough to recognize that doing otherwise is being reliant on a fallacy in the first place? either way, one seems to feeds into the other.

    it's note worthy that even the later will fall back on this when they are emotionally stressed or on sensitive matters. in both cases, when its done, the behavior follows the same pattern - the more complimenting and 'understanding' you are towards them, the more they will attribute you with characteristics of credibility such as intelligence and expertise, and the more your conclusions and reasoning conflicts with their egos, the less credible you become. on both cases it will be done regardless of the strength or competence of reasoning - utter BS arguments will be acceptable if they come with an ego-stroke, and the best of arguments will be denied if they conflict with their beliefs about themselves.
    its also noteworthy that even for those who do so only under emotional stress, the arguments they came to accept or deny under such state will be the maintained beliefs long after, since in their mind the case has already being closed and concluded.

    unfortunately, reality does not filter the truth based on what our ego's would like it to be.

  3. #33
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    So, if I'm interpreting that correctly, an extrapolated question could be: if there is something really, really important one desires an INFJ to look at, is there a way to help respectfully foster this process? When this "first filter" can be so effective at times, are there instances where an INFJ will wish to even have such a thing pointed out? And the gentlest way to do it would be? Or will those efforts be met with resistance or disbelief anyway so no sense trying to press on that?
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Offer the evidence and don't expect to see the person acquiesce right in the moment. They are going to need some time to mull it over and then to decide whether it is of enough import to totally rebuilt their internal structure on the topic (which also takes time). Just because you don't see them agreeing with you right away doesn't necessarily mean they aren't hearing you.
    I agree with this, in response to PB’s post. The best way to get information considered is to shave it down to a bare minimum of what you’d like considered. If we come up with a question or present what ‘doesn’t make sense’ about it- don’t equate that with “not listening”….if we’re asking questions or presenting the parts that trip us up, that’s because we’re still trying to take it in. I don’t bother pointing out the problematics once I’ve actually stopped listening, because I consider that a vapid waste of time. [It’s been said this looks like we’re “trying to discredit”- from our point of view (or maybe I should say “from my point of view”, but I know at least a few other INFJs would agree with me here) we’re not actively “trying to discredit” so much as we’re trying to iron out the problematics that appear on their own.]

    **

    It occurs to me that I maybe should have asked @Esoteric Wench- before I posted anything- what her intention was in creating this thread. I tend to assume things like this are created to try to understand the other side, but then it’s been pointed out before that this can seem to NFPs like “rushing to a solution” (or “telling people why they are wrong for feeling something”) and it can be invalidating if the person actually just wants to complain/vent. (Or something.)

    I do think that saying “INFJ's can sometimes refuse to interpret information because it goes against their preconceived notions of how that information should be presented” (or, PB, saying the information gets dismissed because of “decorum”) demonstrates a lack of understanding regarding exactly why some sources are easier to listen to than others. And it seems like a misunderstanding which presumes there’s more ‘choice’ (e.g.“refuse”) involved than there actually is about how much and how quickly a Ni dom can soak up new external data. But if this thread was simply meant to be a platform for venting about how aggravating it is to deal with and nothing more, then I’ll leave it alone.
    Last edited by Z Buck McFate; 03-17-2013 at 01:48 AM. Reason: clarifying
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  4. #34
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    It would be interesting to compare the manner in which other types reject information because of the source because this is definitely not limited to INFJs, or I--Js. Perceivers can absolutely do the same which is demonstrated plenty in these parts, but the process is likely to be different.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  5. #35
    Member Guy V. Malaxia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I'm just saying that INFJ's can sometimes refuse to interpret information because it goes against their preconceived notions of how that information should be presented.
    Accurate. In addition I would argue that the presentation itself is information -- that is to say that the details of the person's character are factored into the overall argument/opinion/idea and its credibility because they are in many ways one and the same.

    To illustrate via a (somewhat belabored) example, I would not take much stock in the interior decorating tips of one whose own home is in disarray or whose home has a particular style and flavor that doesn't fit my own. I might even outright dismiss his input (kindly, I hope) before I get a chance to hear it in the first place. I'm not going to pretend that it's an infallible heuristic, because it isn't -- but it helps with the filtering process.

    Character in this context seems to be an extension of whatever sort of ideology the person holds. To reject one is to reject the other, as they often, in my experience, go hand in hand.

  6. #36
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I'll have to continue to reflect on how I relate to this assumption. There is a professor at the local university who puts a lot of people off, and most everyone I talk to completely dismisses him. They will not listen to him, have lunch with him, or credit him with any knowledge. He has undermined and insulted me like he has everyone else, but I relate to him differently. I don't trust him, and I understand their disdain, but it is important to me specifically to continue to consider his expertise. It is easiest for me to be this way in endeavors of knowledge. The personal invites a more complex reaction from me, especially if my friends or family are unfairly attacked. Even in cases where others have judged me otherwise, I remain a degree of openness when a person who has demonstrated harm or dishonesty has demonstrated behaviors and ideas to the contrary. I'll try to come back with more analysis if I have time and don't forget.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  7. #37
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    actually, @Esoteric Wench - i am curious about your intent here as well. i assumed before that it was merely an intellectual dabbling - trying to figure out the nature of the phenomena.

    but is there something more to it?
    looking into their flaws & what's broken... is there someone in your life you are trying to fix?

    don't get me wrong, but if its a general people-type thing rather then any specific case, then with the rest of the human race being 97% of the population, to say that there are plenty of other fish in the sea would be one hell of an understatement. if you don't like standing in the supermarket with the 1 cashier who spits when she talks, why not stand in one of the other 15 lines?

  8. #38
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    @Esoteric Wench - we're waiting on you here woman! Visit soon and get caught up on this thread!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #39
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    actually, @Esoteric Wench - i am curious about your intent here as well. i assumed before that it was merely an intellectual dabbling - trying to figure out the nature of the phenomena.

    but is there something more to it?
    looking into their flaws & what's broken... is there someone in your life you are trying to fix?

    don't get me wrong, but if its a general people-type thing rather then any specific case, then with the rest of the human race being 97% of the population, to say that there are plenty of other fish in the sea would be one hell of an understatement. if you don't like standing in the supermarket with the 1 cashier who spits when she talks, why not stand in one of the other 15 lines?
    At risk of confirming the original premise:



    Of course, I've thought the same of you and said as much.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    At risk of confirming the original premise
    you are the first INFJ i've known to never disappoint

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