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  1. #21
    From the Undertow CuriousFeeling's Avatar
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    I think this may also be connected to Ni-Ti checking for inner logical consistency with one's own conclusions. Present new information and Ni-Ti might reject new information from a source that isn't trustworthy, and become skeptical of the new information. Ni, by nature, is deductive and will search for more evidence (via Se) to prove the hypothesis of their own and reject information from others that isn't logically consistent with what they see to be truth. It's a matter of how much of a stronghold an INFJ has on their hypothesis, thinking they are for a certain right about their convictions. Even greater tunnel vision because INFJ's mode of objective analysis is directed inwards (introverted), vs. Te is based on external information. And it takes much longer for Ni-Ti to process information in comparison to Ni-Te.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Yep. And, for me, at least, I can't really just add in a new, unexpected part: I've got to rebuild the whole machine and that is a lot of work. I'm prone to go with the 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' school of thought because of that. Once I get a big enough pile of parts, I'll bite the bullet and do the work, but generally not until then. And that is when you are most likely to see me appear to 'turn on a dime' in my views, opinions, or methods.

    It no doubt makes me look like a crazy bitch to most folks and I'm not saying they're wrong. I'm just saying I have a right to my crazy, just like everybody else.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #23
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    It came up in another thread, but there is sometimes a tendency for NFPs to throw a bunch of stuff out there - some true and some more tainted and declare it as truth at the beginning. I find it hard then to trust them if they don't make the distinction at the beginning that some is subjective and some is objective.
    Just a thought on your post:

    I think it might be fair to say we see everything as subjective - just by degrees. When someone speaks, or I read something here on the forum, there's a process that engages automatically where I weigh everything that's said by these degrees of subjectivity, and those scales are set on a variety of parameters. Some stuff comes across as a balanced perspective and other stuff not, some stuff seems especially emotionally driven and some not, and some stuff sounds inaccurate or intuitively off etc etc. So I do this mental weighting as I read each bit, and all that data, the information fills into a spectrum of sorts, and I also assign a tone to the overall message too at the end. Then I look at who said it, consider what I know of them, research what feels like gaps in either my knowledge or their argument ... and so it goes, until it assembles kind of like a puzzle at the end. Hardly anything is discarded until there's a picture of sorts presenting itself.

    When an NFP does things in "real-time" it does tend to be all jumbled up like that, and I think this makes it more difficult for IxxJ types in particular to contend with since you produce a much more finished product to begin with. To us though, it kind of all makes sense somehow since we just accept what comes at us and sort that info on the fly (or in retrospect if something continues to feel "wrong").
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #24
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think part of this phenomenon also has to do with the fact that Ni keeps generating further possibilities, so each piece of information we accept is really 10 times as big as it initially appears and takes quite some time to process. If we accept all the information that's thrown out there without filtering some of the most obvious stuff out by source, then we would never be able to come to any decisions. As it is, Ni already takes a dreadful amount of time to work through ideas to make it possible to come to a decision.
    This too makes me wonder about relative time-frames ... I do accept a lot of info on the fly, so much so sometimes that my mind is numb with all of it, yet my appetite for more data to sort something out can seem insatiable. I must understand, so I must research, must learn more, hear more, see more, experience more. Creating these humungous arrays connecting all the dots.

    I wonder if that takes as long as your internal process? But ours just happens to unwind as we go along, and thus seems faster? I know I can spend hours, days, weeks aggregating data and I get impatient when the puzzle still isn't finished and confused as to why the picture isn't evolving.

    Anyways, that's a bit of a diversion from the thread topic but it struck me as an interesting question to ponder. Does the INFJ internal process take as long as the ENFP external one, just one is hidden and the other "out loud?" (I won't count INFP in there, since being an introvert seems like it would naturally elongate the whole process anyway.)
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #25
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think part of this phenomenon also has to do with the fact that Ni keeps generating further possibilities, so each piece of information we accept is really 10 times as big as it initially appears and takes quite some time to process. If we accept all the information that's thrown out there without filtering some of the most obvious stuff out by source, then we would never be able to come to any decisions. As it is, Ni already takes a dreadful amount of time to work through ideas to make it possible to come to a decision.

    Yes, very much this. I’m reminded of an episode of the Simpsons where Homer sat down with a bunch of energy bars that were actually entire meals crammed into one bar, and then he had to call 911 because he’d eaten a whole pile of them. It isn’t that we *choose* to filter out more information- we have less of a threshold and we filter because we can’t take in the same volume as a Pe’er. Like the ‘energy bars’, information expands once it’s inside, connections start firing off all over the place to different parts of the internal structure. Pe’ers may be able to take in more quantity-wise, but that’s because the processing isn’t as thorough. Or rather, it’s thorough in its own way: it’s spread across several different contexts, never really delving too far into any single context. The point is: for Pe, the volume it appears to be on the outside is pretty much the same volume once it’s inside. If it was your experience to feel so full you could hardly move after eating only a fraction of an energy bar- even if other people seem to be scarfing them down like there’s no tomorrow- you’d understand why we’re so finicky about what we’re willing to ingest in the first place.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  6. #26
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    It's been an interesting read from both sides of the Pness coin. I'll add my perspective of this process by saying that while understanding the potential "SYSTEM ERROR" Ni's unfolding causes seems to be the main cause for the trimming/filtering/dismissal/reluctance to consider data, to me, a similar glimpse of "SYSTEM ERROR"

    occurs when I become aware of the possibility of the existence of new data that can compromise partially/the totality of my understanding of reality.

    To me, becoming aware of this and then choosing to look away simply does not compute. And yes, this is with the notion that, in taking it in, my entire understanding of reality/belief system may be challenged but in the face of the possibility of "everything you believe in is a lie", that's more a potential for relief -by confirming whether the possibility is confirmed or not i.e. taking in the data and verifying its validity - than further turmoil.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
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    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  7. #27
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    to me, a similar glimpse of "SYSTEM ERROR"

    occurs when I become aware of the possibility of the existence of new data that can compromise partially/the totality of my understanding of reality.
    I get this with values, and the gif is completely accurate. There is a jolt inside.

    To me, becoming aware of this and then choosing to look away simply does not compute. And yes, this is with the notion that, in taking it in, my entire understanding of reality/belief system may be challenged but in the face of the possibility of "everything you believe in is a lie", that's more a potential for relief -by confirming whether the possibility is confirmed or not i.e. taking in the data and verifying its validity - than further turmoil.
    Yes! It must be investigated, or if it doesn't come to me, then sought out! Whenever I have a particularly strong reaction or gut feeling, I'm pretty much compelled to look around and research for information that could overturn it or at least disagrees with it at equal strength to my feeling so I can compare views. I want the lies in my beliefs exposed. I want that shock. I'm currently plugging away at a type me thread in which I try to describe this inclination way less concisely than you just did here. This will be a help.

  8. #28
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    To me, becoming aware of this and then choosing to look away simply does not compute. And yes, this is with the notion that, in taking it in, my entire understanding of reality/belief system may be challenged but in the face of the possibility of "everything you believe in is a lie", that's more a potential for relief -by confirming whether the possibility is confirmed or not i.e. taking in the data and verifying its validity - than further turmoil.
    The thing is, I don't "become aware of it and then choose to look away". Going back to the 'energy bar' analogy- to "become aware of" would mean the whole energy bar was ingested in the first place and then regurgitated a little. Or something. It's like assuming steps were actually taken forward and then a few steps taken back- that's not the case. My attention isn't directed outward to "become aware of it" in the first place (just like Pe'ers attention isn't directed inward to instinctively examine the crap out of each context- the instinct is to bounce to the next context/search more external data right away).
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  9. #29
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    heh, how about another analogy?

    Pe'ers aggregate puzzle pieces with little to no preconceived notion of what the puzzle will look like upon completion, so dammit, Pe'ers collect every durn piece they can find because they might neeeed it. If Pe'ers then get a whole whack of pieces that don't seem to fit, they then have to sort and separate and assemble whilst still looking for more and examining the patterns and trends in the pieces they've got. By the end, I suppose there might be two or three puzzles created but what to do with them now ... and the house continues to fill up with puzzle pieces like an episode of Hoarders!

    Pi'ers think they saw the photo on the puzzle box already, so they unconsciously seek out the pieces that fit that image of the picture in their heads, and gosh, finding pieces along the way that don't fit what they're already searching for are dismissed without contemplation, like they're not even registered as existing. Until at some point, maybe Pi'ers realize that they've seen too many opposing pieces and start seeing that piece as potentially having import into the whole picture. So how to integrate ... how to accommodate ... how to recreate. grrr, that's frustrating and exhausting!

    Or something.

    I think it's a good idea to turn back to the OP for a sec ... EW is noting that INFJ's seem to have a tendency to reject more puzzle pieces than any other Pi'er based on some sort of (shall we say for lack of a better word) protocol involved in the delivery of the pieces. And what I am hearing is that, basically, INFJ's concur and are further providing some context so that other types can understand why they legitimately must do this. Is that correct?

    So, if I'm interpreting that correctly, an extrapolated question could be: if there is something really, really important one desires an INFJ to look at, is there a way to help respectfully foster this process? When this "first filter" can be so effective at times, are there instances where an INFJ will wish to even have such a thing pointed out? And the gentlest way to do it would be? Or will those efforts be met with resistance or disbelief anyway so no sense trying to press on that?

    Thanks INFJ's for your consideration - I imagine this is the path the conversation is going, so trying to facilitate that end.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #30
    From the Undertow CuriousFeeling's Avatar
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    Gentlest way to suggest external information that isn't consistent with Ni-Ti concept of reality with an INFJ....

    What helps in my case is suggesting evidence that isn't consistent with a theory that I have. If it's presented in an objective format, I tend to work best with it. Maybe it's because I have a heavy 5-wing so approaching things in a scientific way helps. But showing such evidence with consideration towards feelings helps. "I understand you may see this, but there's evidence A, B, C, that suggests something else." I think showing an understanding of an INFJ's perspective helps a lot, that our thoughts aren't being dismissed as unimportant or irrelevant.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Johari/Nohari

    “Thoughts are the shadows of our feelings -- always darker, emptier and simpler.”
    ― Friedrich Nietzsche




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