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  1. #21
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I don't know if this is a me thing, an INFJ thing, or a Ni related thing, or just health related brain fog but I find that I often have difficulty with all of these things and have since I was a little kid.
    Yeah, I know what that feels like. When I have to keep too many things in my head or do a list of things exactly my brain turns to sludge. I check things a thousand times over because I'm paranoid that I've forgotten or missed something.

    I used to watch those spy movies and marvel at the hero being told detailed instructions once and remembering everything. It's not that I can't remember details. It just seems like certain details are really difficult for me. People related details are much easier to deal with than something more surroundings/time related.
    I can't remember lists of details at all. I need a context or something meaningful to me to help me remember - or alternatively I have to do it over and over again until it goes in. If someone tells me a phone number I only hear the first 2-3 numbers and I'm already overloaded; every number after that is just "blah, blah, blah". Even if I'm writing it down I have to get the person to say no more than 2 numbers at a time.

    I don't have a strong sense of direction, even though I am extremely good with maps. If you ask me what I saw on my drive to school, I would often have a hard time telling you.
    I have a very good sense of direction. I can find my way around new places pretty well even without a map (like taking a completely different way back to the place I started). I don't like navigating by GPS because I like to be aware of where I am and be able to explore myself. i don't worry about getting lost because I figure I'll work it out eventually even if I do.

    However I am oblivious of details around me. I can drive somewhere and have no memory of the ride there. It's kinda scary; it makes me wonder if I was even paying attention. I'm afraid that if something had gone wrong (like a car pulling out in front of me) I wouldn't have been capable of reacting to it.

    I think back over events of a month's time and while certain details are easily recallable, anything to do with specific times and dates and what happened right then are hazier. I'm surprised at people who are easily able to recall the specific date of their last few periods, even though mine is pretty regular and predictable. Maybe it's just that it isn't terrible important, or that I'm not concerned about pregnancy/fertility right now, but the best I could come up with is a general part of the month.
    I'm like this too.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I wouldn't be able to tell you the first thing about most things I drive by, nor the names of roads. BUT. I have a very good visual sense of direction / where I am.
    Yeah, I'm hopeless at remembering street names unless it's important or easy to do so. Usually I reckon what does it matter? If I know what it looks like it, so what difference will the name of the street make. The main exception is if I'm in Auckland (which is the largest city in NZ) because it's a much bigger, bustling city. You have to worry about motorway exits to particular streets, and with all the traffic, you're more generally in touch with the names of the main arterial routes and short cuts etc.

    I remember by visuals. So while I wouldn't be able to give someone directions to a certain place, when I'm driving TO that place, I know I need to head east, then, oh, yeah, I know THAT particular road heads east, so if I take that, I'll get to a N/S road, and then I need to head south, and then I need to take a left at the KFC.... etc.
    I read somewhere it's a American (or perhaps more generally a North American) thing to give directions in terms of North, South, East and West. Here, on the other hand, people would say right or left - and I think this is probably the case in the Australia, UK, and maybe Europeans too etc. I'm not sure of the reason why - perhaps we see travelling in a slightly different way. Perhaps Americans think in terms of the wider, standardised, common picture of where they are and where they want to get to, whereas we think in terms of the immediate experience and our personal perception of the space. This is strange really because I've read its a more Male thing to do it the first way and a more Female thing the do it the latter way. It's like how a woman tends to turn a map around so that she's looking at the street at the same angle on the page as she would see it in real life. Men, however, don't usually do this because they tend to be better at rotating the map in their heads and don't need to do it physically (although, I do this rather than the female version, myself). But, you'd expect this divide to exist between the sexes not along cultural boundaries. It's interesting...

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Thank you all for responding - I've been sick for the last couple of days and haven't gotten to the computer. I've been thinking as I've been reading responses...

    - I tend to look at generalities more than specifics, which isn't useful when receiving verbal directions. Highly detailed directions in particular are impossible and I don't have a good feel for east, west, north, south.
    - I also go by landmarks. Once I have a clear map in my head, I'm fine. It really helps me to see a visual map of the neighbourhood. I usually write down addresses. I rarely get lost unless relying solely on having been there once and knowing the way.
    This could partly be a male/female difference. I remember watching an episode of Child of Our Time and they talked about differences between the sexes in terms of directions. They had boys and girls aged about 10 doing a hedge maze. There were several platforms around the maze where you could climb up and look down on the maze and work out where you needed to go. The boys were very good at doing this and keeping the mental image of the maze in their heads - and they were quite a bit faster than the girls overall. Apparently similar test had been performed before where the results were similar. However, they have also done a variation where statues and objects where placed in the maze in a range of places. When children did this maze the girls were just as good as the boys because they were able to navigate by using distinct landmarks. Females overall tend to be better at this than forming a mental picture of the overall maze. So in other words you're not alone!

    This is besides the point for me because I think more like a male brain in this regard.
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  2. #22
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    @cascadeco If you're interested, I found an article on the cultural differences:

    Why Americans and Europeans Give Directions Differently

    One of the charms of Europe is the irregular geography of its city streets. Meanwhile across the Atlantic many major American cities follow a fairly rigid (albeit intuitive) grid system. The local differences echo the broader approaches to land division there and here. While many boundaries in the Old World conform to the curves of nature, places in the United States generally follow a rectangular system imposed, in large part, by the Public Land Survey.

    It stands to reason that these different environments would leave distinct impressions on their respective residents. If the place you live in looks like a map, logic suggests you'll start to discuss it like one. Likewise, if the place you live in has a unique layout, you'll need more precise identifiers to describe it.

    That's the idea at the heart of a study set to appear in an upcoming issue of the Journal of Environmental Psychology. An international team of psychologists, led by Alycia Hund of Illinois State University, recruited students from the Midwest United States and the Netherlands to give directions around a fictional neighborhood. The results suggest that the "structure of the physical environment also shapes wayfinding processes," Hund and company report.

    In simpler terms: where we live determines how we give directions.

    The researchers brought test participants into a lab and presented them with a map of a small district containing 17 landmarks and 29 streets. These wayfinders were then assigned a starting point and a destination and asked to provide directions to someone navigating the area. Half the time they were told the navigator was driving; the other half they were told the navigator was just looking at a map.

    The different navigator conditions were meant to encourage different types of directions. Hund and colleagues believed wayfinders would offer drivers more first-person descriptions (including landmarks) and would offer map-readers more third-person descriptions (including street names and cardinal directions).

    These conditions did have some impact, but what really influenced the type of directions was the culture of the wayfinder. Americans were far more likely, across all tests, to give navigators a street name or a cardinal direction (i.e. north, east, south, or west). Dutch wayfinders, on the other hand, provided far more landmarks and left-right turn-descriptors.

    Hund's team believes this behavior is a direct result of the environments the wayfinders inhabit:

    These findings generally are consistent with reliance on unique landmarks when layouts and vistas are irregular (as in much of Europe) in contrast to reliance on street names (and numbering) when layouts and labeling are more regular (as in the Midwestern United States).

    The researchers note that many of the Dutch wayfinders became frustrated when asked to give map-readers directions. "They realized there might be a more effective way of describing the route on the map, but never came up with the idea to switch from left-right descriptors to cardinal terms," Hund and company write. They suppose the Dutch would have improved considerably if given enough time to convert cardinal directions into relative terms — equating "east" with "right," for instance.

    A glance at the previous literature suggests that a person's wayfinding abilities may be governed first by general culture and next by local environment. In one study that compared the spatial knowledge of Americans with that of British who live in a grid-like town, the Americans still demonstrated higher overall familiarity with a grid. But in another test of Americans from different parts of the country, Midwesterners used cardinal directions more than people from the Northeast.

    The researchers themselves don't propose this two-layered theory (here's hoping they eventually test it). Neither do they explicitly consider the role that car dependency might play in the results — except to point out that American interstates use cardinal directions, like I-95 North. But it seems very possible that one reason Americans come to view directions on the map-based format is because they're often guided by an in-car G.P.S. system, whereas the Dutch, whose streets are made for walking, would necessarily use more mental landmarks to find the way.
    http://www.theatlanticcities.com/com...ferently/2494/
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  3. #23
    Senior Member hazelsees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Thank you all for responding - I've been sick for the last couple of days and haven't gotten to the computer. I've been thinking as I've been reading responses...

    - I tend to look at generalities more than specifics, which isn't useful when receiving verbal directions. Highly detailed directions in particular are impossible and I don't have a good feel for east, west, north, south.
    - I also go by landmarks. Once I have a clear map in my head, I'm fine. It really helps me to see a visual map of the neighbourhood. I usually write down addresses. I rarely get lost unless relying solely on having been there once and knowing the way.
    - I think I have a good sense of the passage of time. I usually would know what time it was within 10 or 15 minutes. I also rarely go mistaken all day either about the date or the schedule. It's just more like if someone asks me if I have a prep that day and when they should come into my class, I'll thought that I checked and then realize after I was wrong and need to track them down or correct myself to the kids about when something is. It makes me look disorganized. Or the other day, my mum initially thought it was Thursday, I corrected her, and told her what lessons I was teaching after school, but then myself had a lapse where after school I thought I was on my Thursday schedule and arrived home only in the nick of time to teach. Stuff like that.
    - I have problems with setting alarm clocks accurately, even though I understand how they work. I've dealt with it by having 2 or 3 on the go, but even so, I would prefer to live near/with people just for insurance!
    - I often miss announcements or details. It's like my ears and head filter them, so it takes a conscious effort to try to notice those things every day, or I miss a lot. Generally I've always had ESTJ type friends that like to keep everyone else around them in the loop, so that helps.
    - I've found that reviewing the events of a day in the morning helps me. Part of my problem is that I do have a lot of changing appointments and dates to remember because of the kind of work I do (rescheduling lessons, extra practices, meeting with the teacher I work with at lunch, impromptu meetings, etc). I am generally fine with anything that is repetitious, as it has been assimilated into the schedule in my head.
    - Like bologna, I've learned to use lists, calendars, other people, electronic reminders and so on to help my head out. I just wonder if I can improve the skill itself or if it's just one of those things where I have strengths in other areas and can't have everything, so just need to work around it.
    I relate! Does it make you feel better when others can relate to you? It does me. Makes me feel sort of normal. (I'm new and awkward and I'm sorry if I say weird things. I do this in real life too. But I'm really not weird.)
    Anyway. North, South, East, West all confuse me. To me, it feels backwards. I often have to put myself in my first grade classroom, when I learned N, S, E, W, to acclimate myself.
    My sense of direction is way off. In fact, many of my dreams are about being lost...although, more than likely those dreams are about being more than physically lost. Being lost is a fear. Driving alone to an unfamiliar place makes me nervous.
    When someone gives directions, I ask them to say them slowly so I can make notes about their directions--certain things stand out to me and help me find my way.
    The thing you said, fidelia, about missing announcement or details. My problem is more that I miss the details of announcements--dates and times usually. Or, even something that isn't about dates/times, but just some information being passed in a meeting--I miss the most important details because I'm trying to figure out what the information giver is feeling about the information s/he is giving..
    Calendars are good. If I can remember to use them properly. I don't understand WHY I can't use a calendar properly. I don't write things down because I guess I think I'll remember or I forget to write it down. Luckily I have assistants that are so wonderful about reminding me of details.
    Hope you're feeling better!

  4. #24
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I don't have a strong sense of direction, even though I am extremely good with maps. If you ask me what I saw on my drive to school, I would often have a hard time telling you. When I was a kid, I was always walking in the wrong place, or not aware of cars coming up behind me in parking lots and me blocking their way. I assume this has to do with being Se inferior and also with being absorbed in other thoughts, but I'm not sure.
    I'm very good with maps and rarely get lost driving myself to unfamiliar places. However, I'm not good at giving directions to other people. My directions are rarely precise enough for other people. I have a more impressionistic memory of how to get to places. I can tell you approximately how many miles it is but I may not be able to recall street names or how many intersections you must pass on such and such a road before making a turn. I may know that a place is across from a bank or a strip mall but I may not always remember the name.

    It's embarrasing sometimes, because I work in a library and I get alot of questions from people wanting directions on how to get to the library or how to get to somewhere nearby, like a certain restaurant, post office, etc. Even if the person drives the same way I do, I still have trouble giving them good directions from the top of memory to the place I work at! One day, I decided to combat this by imaging myself coming from various directions and writing down step-by-step instructions on how to get there, along with key street names and landmarks. I wrote this down and saved in an easy to find spot.

    I also couldn't tell you how to get to certain places, even in my own community if they aren't places I go to even though I might pass by them daily. It's like it doesn't really register in my mind unless I have a personal use for it. It ends up being just another building.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think back over events of a month's time and while certain details are easily recallable, anything to do with specific times and dates and what happened right then are hazier. I'm surprised at people who are easily able to recall the specific date of their last few periods, even though mine is pretty regular and predictable. Maybe it's just that it isn't terrible important, or that I'm not concerned about pregnancy/fertility right now, but the best I could come up with is a general part of the month.
    That's one thing I make a high priority to try to remember. I also mark it on my calendar should I forget. I wouldn't want to have an embarrasing accident and not be prepared for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post

    As for the other things, I am very selective about what details I retain. I can remember the words and melody of a song I heard once, years ago, if it made an impression on me, but couldn't tell you what I ate last week, or what the weather was.
    I'm very much the same way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I have always had a good sense of time. I can almost program myself to get up at a certain time, though I use an alarm to be sure. Similarly, I can review all the things I need to do in a given day in the morning or even the night before, then recall all of them correctly throughout the day, even when it is quite busy. But, I must do this deliberately, otherwise I may be as forgetful as the next person. I can usually guess the time within 15 minutes, even after not seeing a clock for hours. (Not sure why any of this - it just is, and I take advantage of it.)
    I'm alot like this as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Yeah, I know what that feels like. When I have to keep too many things in my head or do a list of things exactly my brain turns to sludge. I check things a thousand times over because I'm paranoid that I've forgotten or missed something.

    I can't remember lists of details at all. I need a context or something meaningful to me to help me remember - or alternatively I have to do it over and over again until it goes in. If someone tells me a phone number I only hear the first 2-3 numbers and I'm already overloaded; every number after that is just "blah, blah, blah". Even if I'm writing it down I have to get the person to say no more than 2 numbers at a time.

    I have a very good sense of direction. I can find my way around new places pretty well even without a map (like taking a completely different way back to the place I started). I don't like navigating by GPS because I like to be aware of where I am and be able to explore myself. i don't worry about getting lost because I figure I'll work it out eventually even if I do.

    However I am oblivious of details around me. I can drive somewhere and have no memory of the ride there. It's kinda scary; it makes me wonder if I was even paying attention. I'm afraid that if something had gone wrong (like a car pulling out in front of me) I wouldn't have been capable of reacting to it.

    Yeah, I'm hopeless at remembering street names unless it's important or easy to do so. Usually I reckon what does it matter? If I know what it looks like it, so what difference will the name of the street make. The main exception is if I'm in Auckland (which is the largest city in NZ) because it's a much bigger, bustling city. You have to worry about motorway exits to particular streets, and with all the traffic, you're more generally in touch with the names of the main arterial routes and short cuts etc.
    All this is very much like me as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I read somewhere it's a American (or perhaps more generally a North American) thing to give directions in terms of North, South, East and West. Here, on the other hand, people would say right or left - and I think this is probably the case in the Australia, UK, and maybe Europeans too etc. I'm not sure of the reason why - perhaps we see travelling in a slightly different way. Perhaps Americans think in terms of the wider, standardised, common picture of where they are and where they want to get to, whereas we think in terms of the immediate experience and our personal perception of the space. This is strange really because I've read its a more Male thing to do it the first way and a more Female thing the do it the latter way. It's like how a woman tends to turn a map around so that she's looking at the street at the same angle on the page as she would see it in real life. Men, however, don't usually do this because they tend to be better at rotating the map in their heads and don't need to do it physically (although, I do this rather than the female version, myself). But, you'd expect this divide to exist between the sexes not along cultural boundaries. It's interesting...
    Interesting. I never thought of it as being a cultural thing. I kind of use the NSEW and left, right interchangeably. I think I use left/right when giving directions around the city, especially to someone not familiar with the city as NSEW will probably just confuse them. I tend to give NSEW directions when someone is travelling longer distances and will likely consult a map for part of the trip anyway. I'm from the midwestern part of the United States.
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  5. #25
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    I know this sounds really, really corny.. but I've been playing with Lumosity for a little while now, and I swear I'm slightly sharper. I've also noticed that the more I am studying, the sharper I am with unrelated tasks.

    @ygolo told me something amazing one time when I mentioned it felt like I was cramming so much stuff in my brain that it felt like no more could fit. He said something along the lines of, "That's funny because the brain works the opposite way. The more you put into it, the more connections are created and then you can put even more into it." Ever since he said that, I haven't been nearly as nervous to dive head first into what I consider to be too much material.

    ... Oh, also, routine helps a TON. I have no idea where my keys will ever be if they're anywhere but in my pants pocket or on the hook.

    As far as directions.. I'm not the best with them.. but driving on highways, and using the cardinal directions has gotten me very far. Forcing myself to use maps instead of GPS has also done me a great service, and I was fortunate enough to have learned how to drive before GPS was common in vehicles so that helped me with a decent foundation. .. still, without a map or a general direction, I feel lost frequently. Remembering where I parked, for example, takes an active interest every.. single.. time.. unless I want to walk around forever looking at every silver sedan out there.
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  6. #26
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    @cascadeco If you're interested, I found an article on the cultural differences:



    http://www.theatlanticcities.com/com...ferently/2494/
    Very interesting, thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I have some STJ friends that just can't fathom not being able to direct someone to the actual place in a certain drawer where you keep any given item when it is inquired about...
    Although yes, many things are not easy to explain verbally. It often happens at work that someone asks me, "Where are the ____?" And I start to answer, "They're in the... (realizes it's going to be a long description for something that physically only takes 2 seconds to locate)... I'll get it for you."
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  7. #27
    Bunnies & Rainbow Socks Kayness's Avatar
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    hm you know I have many of the same problems. I have terrible sense of time and sense of direction (and happened to have a relatively friendly countenance which is an unfortunate combination because people come up to me a lot to ask for directions)..and am often very absent minded.

    I don't think the issues you have is specifically INFJ, I think it's an individual thing where some people are better at this than others or perhaps due to some other factors on which I am unqualified to comment.
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  8. #28
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    This could partly be a male/female difference. I remember watching an episode of Child of Our Time and they talked about differences between the sexes in terms of directions. They had boys and girls aged about 10 doing a hedge maze. There were several platforms around the maze where you could climb up and look down on the maze and work out where you needed to go. The boys were very good at doing this and keeping the mental image of the maze in their heads - and they were quite a bit faster than the girls overall.
    I have read that what often are portrayed as male/female differences are really T/F differences. I wonder if these studies controlled for that?
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    @cascadeco If you're interested, I found an article on the cultural differences:
    Interesting! Having traveled a fair amount outside the U.S., it totally makes sense that the cardinal directions wouldn't be nearly as applicable/helpful in giving directions to others, or even in ones' own sense of navigation. All of those windy alleys, very un-grid-like.

    I can see how that plays a part in my own way of orienting and getting the lay of the land, here in the U.S, as N/S/E/W 'works' for me. That said, I don't think it's highly universal in the u.s. either, since I think a lot of people (even many in this thread) don't use it.

    For me, I really think it's just my taking a more 'zoomed-out' view of things. Getting a general idea of a city layout, such that if I have the general idea (know where various suburbs are, know one's to the north of another, know the main road arteries and how they connect, and so on), then I can 'find' my way to an interstate or such, even having never been there before. It's come in handy before... I remember years ago driving through San Francisco and my having missed an exit, or something.... I suspect 1-way-streets were in play ( at 1-ways, they can really f*ck with things)... but I don't know... I just kinda 'felt' my way back to where I thought the interstate entrance would be. Can't explain this....

    Anyway, interesting stuff. Like I said earlier, I don't think it easily translates into type-patterns; I think the spatial/orientating thing is something that falls outside of it - an addl element of psych/personality/brain function, maybe.

    Edit: For me, part of all of it may also have to do with my affinity with nature/outdoors, hiking, etc, thus not only orienting myself directionally (via sunlight), but also having a sense of time based on sun and cumulative experience of time/distance, having hiked hundreds and hundreds of miles by this point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I have read that what often are portrayed as male/female differences are really T/F differences. I wonder if these studies controlled for that?
    I'd be inclined to think so since what @OrangeAppled wrote seemed to apply to me very much, except for the part about sense of time. She is female and I am male.

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