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  1. #11
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    I don't know much about Fi theoretically, but I can give you a recent thought about my own value system and reason. A Christian apologist recently wrote that "there is nothing worse than an analytic fairy." I think I feel that too often I contradict the very beliefs I claim by relying too heavily on reason and logic and merely expecting some logic fairy to bless my conclusions rather then relying on the supernatural king I presuppose in the first place.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  2. #12
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Awesome answers, @Southern Kross. I'm learning so much! And I do feel like I have some of that, but that it is indeed very much unconscious. I think of my shadow Fi as my animal self (where instincts and natural wisdom lie) and my inner child. I have a conscience and follow it, but it's more of a sense of harm and suffering I want to avoid being the cause of. And I like enhancing the well being of others and the planet, because we are all connected. I too respect virtues, but I like everything to fit into underlying principles of reality, like how humans work and how ecosystems fit together. Which I have been understanding as Fe-Ti with a dash of Ni. My ethics consist of harmony, balance of power, and preserving and enhancing life (objectively); and (subjectively) being responsible for the consequences of one's actions. I figure you can't go wrong there. It does kind of bother me that there is so much situational variability- but that's the beauty of life, I suppose. It provides us with an opportunity to learn and grow in consciousness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    A Christian apologist recently wrote that "there is nothing worse than an analytic fairy." I think I feel that too often I contradict the very beliefs I claim by relying too heavily on reason and logic and merely expecting some logic fairy to bless my conclusions rather then relying on the supernatural king I presuppose in the first place.
    Haha, I'm the devil then. Or the logic fairy. Dude, I would love to have that job- just hit people on the head with my magic wand and they would have clarity of thought, logical skills, and insightful epiphanies. I would save the world.

    In a weird way I know what you mean though. Kant wrote that he had to get rid of logic to make room for faith.

  3. #13
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    Information gets filtered through Ne, assessed relevance by Te, stored as Si and recalled by the normal mind as Fi, which in turns influences Ne's initial course.

  4. #14
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    Information gets filtered through Ne, assessed relevance by Te, stored as Si and recalled by the normal mind as Fi, which in turns influences Ne's initial course.
    Huh. I thought it would be more like in through Ne, experienced by Si, brought to consciousness and evaluated by Fi, then evaluated by Te for consistency with reality.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Huh. I thought it would be more like in through Ne, experienced by Si, brought to consciousness and evaluated by Fi, then evaluated by Te for consistency with reality.

    I was gonna add a 'or something' at the end, I've thought of several ways the functions interact to produce a coherent thought. You're right though, Si and Te are probably in the same general step.


    I suppose it depends on several factors.

  6. #16
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    I was gonna add a 'or something' at the end, I've thought of several ways the functions interact to produce a coherent thought.


    I suppose it depends on several factors.
    I guess it could vary. Any Fi users want to weigh in?

  7. #17
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Jung used the term "primordial images" to describe the nature of their origin, which I like very much. They spring up from a gut instinct without really needing experience to create them. They just exist. It's like they were already wired into my brain before I was born, or that they exist inherently, separate to human conciousness and I merely tap into them - like the laws of mathematics or physics.
    I like that too. I have a memory from age 5 feeling out the true and false of a situation involving my parents. I can remember in Grade 3 sitting at my desk in my room pondering whether "Patience is a Virtue" was true or a truism. How old was I, 8? I recall being quite fascinated with that saying.

    These are the kinds of thoughts I remember most. It's very difficult to define.

    The reasoning is important but it's a secondary aspect. It's like looking at a complex maths problem and knowing the answer without having any idea why. For your own sake and because society demands it, you sit there and try and go through the working. You try to discover and outline the steps and rationale that explain why the answer is right. You also need to check that you can accurately replicate the same method in other situations - if you can't, you have to reconsider the mathematical theory.
    Indeed, there were times in math I would know the answer but not be able to work up the how.

    By the end of high school it made nearly all maths very frustrating, and I started to lose interest in trying to prove answers. Plus, it seemed that more than one pathway was acceptable, and I had no parameters to discern which was most relevant, or why there should be more than one, or even what the purpose of each math was.

    Answers would seem instinctively correct to me, but unlike people stuff, there was no value I could look at to help me decide which path to take. No "gut feeling", no sense of how that balances in the universe, somehow.

    Yes, I do feel the need. Without the reasoning, I would have to rely on a case-by-case reaction in the moment. I would prefer to be able to predict what I would feel in other situation and more importantly to create stability and external consistency in something so subjective. I don't want to sound like the crazy person that says the answer to that maths problem and have everyone dismiss it as nonsense. I want to make sense and for them to be able to see what I see too. However, it can be hard to define that reasoning in the moment; I may need some time to work it through in my head. I sometimes need a bit of leeway in this regard because it doesn't come naturally to me. In other words, I might know what the answer is but I'm not sure why yet.
    I relate to this.

    It's kind of a mix between relativism and universalism. I know this sounds contradictory but it doesn't entirely feel that way. I would say it's fundamentally a search for universal values but at the same time I recognise the complexities that throw a spanner in the works. There are different levels of values: some are broad in nature and therefore apply to all; some are smaller in scale and more specific, and therefore only apply to a few, in certain circumstances (and perhaps only if they want them to). I have values that aren't a big deal in the scheme of things that I expect myself to follow but will not expect others to adhere to them. But I won't make a rule for others and not expect myself to follow it. Basically, I will hold myself to an equal or higher standard to others.

    On the other hand I am wary of cultural relativism - totally adhering to that theory requires excusing a lot of things I find morally repugnant. I suppose I allow for some cultural/individual differences - some nuances in how to approach everyday life - as long as they don't violate the crucial universal values.
    I find it fascinating to look inside myself and engage with the highly elastic yet rigidly concrete aspect of such things, and how the nuances have evolved over time, how I have evolved. I can't even put that into words, really. At least not at the moment, and I don't know if I really even want to attempt it. It won't be the same, transferred from images and feelings into words.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #18
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    if your willing to find a book and read a lot I recommend Lenore Thomson's "Persaonlity Type"
    http://www.amazon.com/Personality-Ty...lenore+thomson

    It has lots of good discussion about Fi, and perhaps addresses all of your questions. "Gifts differing" does a somewhat good job too. http://www.amazon.com/Gifts-Differin...ref=pd_sim_b_1 Books about jungian psychological functions may help as well. Perhaps OA will jump into this thread with more discussion as well.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    recognise the reasoning behind others' values
    The reasoning?

  10. #20
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    How does an Fi value/ethical/moral system work? Where do the values come from- what part of you? Are they backed up by reason, and if so what kind of reason? Do you feel the need to back them up by reason or does that offend you? Are they purely subjective or purely relativistic? It seems like cultural relativism would be Fe, but universal values and morality seems to be the property of either or both. Are things right only for you or are they right for everyone? Are things wrong only for you or for everyone? What happens when value/ethical systems clash? Do you argue or let them have their own point of view? Does it matter to you if other people agree with you? Do ethical systems have to be logically organized? Do Fi users bother with ethical theory, and if so what would an Fi ethical theory look like?
    First, what do you consider the difference between values, morals, and ethics?

    To answer your questions loosely: my values tend to be absolute, such that what is right/wrong for me is right/wrong for everyone. Chief among these values, however, are self-determination and self-expression, which lead quickly to the idea of different strokes for different folks. Basically, this means each person should be able to go their own way, provided they don't constrain someone else's self-determination. These values require two additional conditions. First is that one's fundamental human needs are met (food, shelter, etc.). Self-determination, expression, and fulfillment are hard when one is constantly in survival mode. Second, the idea of self-determination involves making choices, and to make effective choices, one must understand the options. For this reason, the second condition is access to knowledge or information. If someone is making an informed decision of their own free will to do something that does not harm others, it is hard for me to object to it.

    My values come from within; I just feel or sense that something is wrong or right, good or bad. As such, I am sure they are in fact influenced by everything I have ever learned or experienced, consciously or otherwise. My own values won't necessarily reflect these internalized ideas, though, and might in fact have processed them beyond recognition, or have stood them entirely on their head.

    I always have reasons for my values, though those reasons might just be other values. I use reason mostly to check for consistency, and will reconcile discordant values accordingly. Ethics/values should be internally consistent, which might be considered a form of logical organization.

    I will discuss/argue about values with anyone, as long as they remain relatively civil and focused on the topic. I am usually far less interested in convincing them to agree with me than in getting them to explain and defend their point of view with any semblance of reason and coherence. This is hard enough for far too many people. Of course, some still take offense at this approach, at which point they are best left to their intransigence.

    Finally, the idea of ends vs. means has been mentioned. I tend to place more emphasis on the ends, since that is where the greatest impact is registered. To do the opposite is usually worse, i.e. let the means justify the ends. Far too many "evils" are perpetrated by people who faithfully followed some correct process to an incorrect, harmful, or downright abhorrent result.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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