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  1. #81
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatman455 View Post
    Sorry I didn't get it. I left my house, why? Does that have something to do with whether one puts up with nonsense or not?


    I was trying to get proteanmix and my discussion to a more private level so we wouldn't cause this kind of reaction in this thread.

    For what it is worth, I am sorry if anyone is upset with what I said, but I have a lot of experience dealing with these personality types and I am merely stating what I believe to be accurate.
    Nah dude, chill out. It seems like with the ESFPs and ENFPs that I know, that when they don't get stimulated for a while that their Te goes rampant to get stimulation from the world. Was just curious. ^_^
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    Nah dude, chill out. It seems like with the ESFPs and ENFPs that I know, that when they don't get stimulated for a while that their Te goes rampant to get stimulation from the world. Was just curious. ^_^
    No, I left today. My Te is always stupidly rampant, definitely a weakness to ENFP. What did I say that made you think my Te was off? Did you disagree with something I said? I would be happy to reword it to better communicate my point if I did. I know what I am saying is accurate, but getting it out properly is a challenge sometimes.

    Let's try to keep this more focused because people are coming in here to see opinions on ENFP and ENFJ and they see us talking about leaving our houses and such lol.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatman455 View Post
    Who is trying to defeat me? That won't work, lol. This isn't a competition, we are expressing views in a friendly manner, and Fe is not very effective on message boards where people are trying to make points anyway. I think in person is where Fe shines.
    i meant to quote protean and it was about the fact that her Fe will not work and she must revert down to her inferior Ti which I as a dominant Ti user can take her on as a padawon so she can learn under my wing.

    it was a joke its ok, we all still love you

  4. #84
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatman455 View Post
    No, I left today. My Te is always stupidly rampant, definitely a weakness to ENFP. What did I say that made you think my Te was off? Did you disagree with something I said? I would be happy to reword it to better communicate my point if I did. I know what I am saying is accurate, but getting it out properly is a challenge sometimes.
    Nah it was just obvious, the Te. One of my best friends is an ENFP, and he reminds me a lot of you. I don't consider the Te a weakness, not at all.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    Nah it was just obvious, the Te. One of my best friends is an ENFP, and he reminds me a lot of you. I don't consider the Te a weakness, not at all.
    I agree it comes out all serious though and it makes it hard not to turn it into a joke. In this corner you got a 500lb heavy weight named Te covered in spikes, in the other corner a 600lb Fe heavy weight in pink tights with a whip.


    disclaimer: I do not know if either are heavy weights nor do I have anything against heavy weights nor pink tights, I could learn to like the whip though

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    i meant to quote protean and it was about the fact that her Fe will not work and she must revert down to her inferior Ti which I as a dominant Ti user can take her on as a padawon so she can learn under my wing.

    it was a joke its ok, we all still love you
    Thanks, I love you too, lol.

    Yeah, she/he was acting a bit strange. Attacking me and stuff, really ENFJ like behavior, but refused to tell me her/his type, and refused to actually communicate properly. Any idea why? ENFJs do have a tendency to criticize others and then get horrible defensive when people criticize them. I don't mean they routinely criticize, quite the opposite. However, judgments they make about other people tend to put them other down, while boosting the self. Is she/he ENFJ?

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatman455 View Post
    I think you guys might be reading a bit too much detail into your descriptions. I don't think one or the other necessarily makes a better leader, that is more up to the individual, anyone can be a good leader for example.

    I think the key things to look at are: Straightforwardness of communication, and activity level.

    I think ENFJs are more likely to act then think, ENFPs are more likely to think then act. On the converse, ENFJs will think before they speak frequently, and ENFPs just say what comes to their minds.

    Also, on that note, ENFJs are not as straightforward, direct, or honest with their communication. They say what they think they need to say for effect, and are not above Bullshitting a little bit, if they think it will make other people feel better (in the short term at least) or prevent people from thinking poorly of themselves. ENFPs usually say what comes to mind, and although are aware of how it may effect people, say it directly, valuing open communication and honesty.



    This is where I am going to interject my own opinion from experience: I think ENFJs are more likely to be ego driven for lack of a better word, they know how to manipulate people and are not always against it despite a strong sense of personal ethics. ENFPs are less likely to do this, but also struggle sometimes because of this. They are so direct it can hurt other people's opinions of them because other people are so used to (or prefer) getting BSed by less honest types.

    I think in the end, if you have to make a leadership judgment,

    I think ENFJs are more drawn to these positions, but actually make worse leaders. Normally people drawn to leadership positions are poor leaders because they are drawn there for selfish reasons. I think ENFJs that are drawn to leadership are more likely to do it out of arrogance, power, and ego, while ENFPs are more likely out of personal love for whatever they are leading, or because they don't want to be lead by someone else. I know personally, I think our (humans) current leadership hierarchy is far too vertical, and needs to be more horizontal. We need to be equals, not have 1 leader who tells us all what to do. That said, in the end, it matters on each individual reading this and their preferred leadership style. Some people prefer more selfish style leaders, and others more self sacrificing.

    ENFJs are more convincing leaders, but ENFPs are better ones.

    ENFJs are more traditional leaders, but ENFPs are more progressive in their leadership.

    ENFJs are more organized leaders, but ENFPs are more thoughtful ones.



    I talked earlier about the conscious differences that they display in their communication (ENFPs consciously try and be more honest, ENFJs more consciously try and consider other people feelings before speaking. However, on the unconscious realm it is a different story. The unconscious must be observed because clearly even the individual is not very aware of these impulses. I believe on the unconscious level:

    ENFJs words are adapted for others but their actions are more selfish
    ENFPs actions are adapted for others but their words are more selfish

    This may seem counter intuitive to the introverted actions of an ENFP and the extraverted actions of the ENFJ, but I think that usually our extroverted sides are more selfish while appearing to consider others. This is why extroversion is more common, but also more shunned universally. The majority is usually survivable, and the minority correct. If the minority wasn't right, they would have little need to exist.


    I also think ENFPs, tend to lead and think more long term, and ENFJs more short term, however both types are pretty long term oriented. An example is how the ENFJ is more likely to be less than honest to make someone feel better. If they can make someone feel better in the moment they feel better, but they don't always think of the long run and how this will affect the person if said individual knew their true intentions.

    In the end though, I think the leadership style is more about the person than the Myers Briggs type, remember there are only 16 types, and there are way more people than that on the Earth.

    Last note: I am an ENFP (4w5) myself and this may make it hard for me to judge an ENFJ (and vice versa), of course it could also make my judgments more bitingly accurate too. Don't you love the gray? Nothing closer mirrors reality than fence sitting, because our world is rarely boxed in so easily. Also, given the fact that we are so connected to our functions (you can't separate Extroverted Intuition from Introverted Feeling), and because we frequently display traits from out of type (an ENFJ will frequently experience Extroverted Intuition and Introverted Feeling despite their preference being the opposite) it makes it very difficult to properly pin types down with any sort of accurate certainty.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatman455 View Post
    I disagree completely. I think ENFPs tend to speak first think later, and ENFJs tend to act first think later. However, they are both aware of what other people think of them. ENFJs also have a higher tendency to be dishonest than ENFPs in my experience (deep down, ENFJs bullshit more) ENFPs on the other hand I have noticed have a tendency to be too honest at times, alienating those they speak to.

    Again just my experience, but hopefully a helpful observation regardless.
    Your whole post is very contradictory. Your body of information is completely going against what you presented as your premise and conclusion. You say that quality of leadership is individually based but then you go on to say "ENFPs are better leaders". Throughout the whole post you seem to be glorifying how wonderful ENFPs are and putting ENFJs in a slightly negative light (see the red). ENFPs have many wonderful traits but still. In that light, it would not be very objective... there is definitely some bias. Either type cane great or a shitty leader.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatman455 View Post
    Wow are we really boxing in these two types, I guess you have to for discussion purposes, but remember to keep an open mind with this stuff, and not box these types in too much.
    We are all doing it, you included.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goatman455 View Post

    You really are reacting like the ENFJs that I see when they are personally insulted. You are trying to find reasons I am wrong and reasons to discredit me rather than looking at what I said objectively.
    That's ironic because your posts don't seem objective. However, with this MBTI system, I doubt objectivity could ever be achieved since it's not clearly defined and its based on personal experiences.

  8. #88
    Senior Member Happyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatman455 View Post
    Also, on that note, ENFJs are not as straightforward, direct, or honest with their communication. They say what they think they need to say for effect, and are not above Bullshitting a little bit, if they think it will make other people feel better

    (...)

    This is where I am going to interject my own opinion from experience: I think ENFJs are more likely to be ego driven for lack of a better word, they know how to manipulate people and are not always against it despite a strong sense of personal ethics. ENFPs are less likely to do this, but also struggle sometimes because of this. They are so direct it can hurt other people's opinions of them because other people are so used to (or prefer) getting BSed by less honest types.

    I think in the end, if you have to make a leadership judgment,

    I think ENFJs are more drawn to these positions, but actually make worse leaders. Normally people drawn to leadership positions are poor leaders because they are drawn there for selfish reasons. I think ENFJs that are drawn to leadership are more likely to do it out of arrogance, power, and ego, while ENFPs are more likely out of personal love for whatever they are leading, or because they don't want to be lead by someone else. I know personally, I think our (humans) current leadership hierarchy is far too vertical, and needs to be more horizontal. We need to be equals, not have 1 leader who tells us all what to do. That said, in the end, it matters on each individual reading this and their preferred leadership style. Some people prefer more selfish style leaders, and others more self sacrificing.

    ENFJs are more convincing leaders, but ENFPs are better ones.

    ENFJs are more traditional leaders, but ENFPs are more progressive in their leadership.

    ENFJs are more organized leaders, but ENFPs are more thoughtful ones.
    I think there are some valid points in your post. The general 'attitude' is a bit we're cool, you're not', but at least it's honest. Kind of proves one of the points you make.

    I would most strongly disagree with 2 things, though:

    1. Leadership
    I think you really look at it from your own perspective. ENFPs are often good project leaders (especially starting projects, marketing them), but they don't make that good 'general leaders'. I mean, often they do, but ENFJs are more likely to engage in developing their people, help them solve their problems and motivate them on daily basis.
    ENFJ - traditional leader
    ENFP - action leader, promoter

    2. Long/Short-term perspective

    I think ENFJs are very long-term focused. I'd name them one of the three most 'on the horizon' focused types, among INTJs and ENTJs. We're really about vision.
    ENFPs I know aren't like that too much. They're kind of fire starters. They see Shangri-la far ahead and then jump to immediate action. You might be an exception, though.


    Now I may be sounding like: we're cool, you're not. I hope not, but if I do it's because I want to add to what you've written and make a full picture out of it. I'll post something in 'Why I hate ENFJs', I promise!.

    And last but not least - aren't you an ENTP, by any chance? You sound like my ENTP friends from high school - I mean, logical, like to argue. ENFP would go for 'let's solve it together' by now.

  9. #89
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happyman View Post
    And last but not least - aren't you an ENTP, by any chance? You sound like my ENTP friends from high school - I mean, logical, like to argue. ENFP would go for 'let's solve it together' by now.
    Nah he actually cares about how he's affecting other people with his posting, and cares about his tone and just generally cares. ENTPs don't care if they are debating something.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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  10. #90
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    I am a guy ENFP, so sometimes I appear like an ENTP, but I have ENTP friends and because of this I know I am definitely not ENTP. I think you are seeing the dominant intuition and focusing on that too much.

    It's like saying, are you sure your not an ESFJ? You will appear very close to one, but you are not because you prefer more abstract issues.




    I didn't mean to negatively Bias ENFJs, but I noticed most of the posts did that with ENFPs so I set out to balance things. I think this happens a lot, when people try to balance things they are viewed as negative, but at the same time, when the world is ignoring things, sometimes you gotta point them out.


    "ENFJs are more organized leaders, but ENFPs are more thoughtful ones."

    Ok, how is the ENFP part more positive than the ENFJ. Organization is CRUCIAL to leadership are you kidding me. It is ENFPs biggest weakness in leading. I think "logical" should have been there instead of thoughtful.


    Perhaps "better" leader was the wrong word, let me try and say what I meant.


    What is good? To some people it is to be convincing, to others, it is to listen and cooperate. "Better leader" is subjective.

    Yes, I think the action focus of ENFJ makes them better in a certain sense, but they are also more selfish leaders in my opinion. They don't listen as much and do what they want to do and convince people they are acting in their best interests.

    Also I think a key to good leadership is directness and honesty, something many leaders in todays world act.


    Like I said, ENFJs made better leaders in the past, and ENFPs in the future. The less say and the less concerned the people being led are, the more the ENFJ will be successful. The more concerned the people are the better the ENFP will be. They both can lead well in different situations.






    "ENFPs I know aren't like that too much. They're kind of fire starters. They see Shangri-la far ahead and then jump to immediate action."

    Immediate action is more like the ENFJs I know, as an ENFP, I find I am much slower to act than the EJs I know, and more likely to think first before acting. However, I usually open my big mouth before thinking, and perhaps I did that earlier.


    Also, I did not mean to say the ENFJ isn't long term focused, they are very long term focused. That said, I think they sometimes miss the big picture while leading, getting caught up in the day to day routine and like you said, motivating people, where this won't be as likely to happen with ENFP.

    The ENFPs problem is that on their bad days their intuition becomes horrible, and leads them to be very short term. I think this is what people see when they extrapolate and see them as short term, or they are just seeing unhealthy ENFPs or ones with poorly developed primary functions.

    It is our greatest strengths that become our greatest weaknesses. ENFJs can be some of the kindest most generous people I have met, yet they can also become the meanest most selfish as well. Kind of the whole Yin/Yang. That said I would hardly call an ENFJ a mean and selfish personality just because it can happen to them. On that note, I think it is a mistake to see ENFPs as short term, they are always looking at the big picture, always, the problem is, they can miss the big picture when they overlook details.

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