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Thread: I'm gonna piss a lot of people off with this thread

  1. #141
    Let me count the ways Array HelenOfTroy's Avatar
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    I'm somewhere between socialist because I appreciate the single wage rule as it is a great deterrent to corruption however I do believe individuals have different needs and want individuality and uniqueness to be celebrated so that side of me is more left libertarian.

    I suppose I'm a liberal lefty with a smattering of socialist...
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  2. #142
    Senior Member Array GIjade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    Are you saying if I work my ass off for my money, spending it on myself is selfish?
    Did you even read what Legion wrote? He/she said spending "a lot of it". I don't think anyone thinks there's anything wrong with spending some of it on yourself, since you worked so hard for it.
    “Oh, what a tangled web we weave...when first we practice to deceive.”
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  3. #143
    Away Array Xann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    Well, this is the core of the issue in a way. Since here there is a deficit of certaintly, so this socialized healthcare system is basically the last line of defence for many people and therefore they don't want to give it away. In theory I am ok with capitalistic healthcare but the prices must stay low and acceptable.
    I just feel it is an illusion to expect with certainty that a socialized healthcare system will adequately be able to provide for medical needs, in a lot of cases the cost/benefit differential is simply astronomical when held under a microscope. Basically in my mind this is a giving up freedom for security situation, where those buying into the system are actually losing both in a lot of ways. Prices of capitalistic healthcare in countries where it is not being subsidized are currently being inflated by a number of other problems (such as drug patent laws and other FDA type institutions), but that is a whole other topic...

    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    Silly real life example: 30% of my country are ex war zones where economy/infrastructure was completely destroyed and therefore many people moved to other parts of the country and young people especially moved to bigger cities or abroad. Therefore people who live in the devastated zones have to produce their own food and goverment gives them some small amounts of money so that they can pay their bills ( to the government companies). However those people have no means to pay typical healthcare bills and those people are mostly older people and simply can't live without some level of healthcare. What means that they would also go away if there is no healthcare for them, and only government can provide that for basically free to them. Therefore if this practice would end they would move to some cousains or children elsewere and leave the land completely empty. What means that the guys that invaded those places in the first place would just move into empty land and take it as their own.

    Therefore to us healthcare is actually defense budget, since in the twilight zone everything is mixed up in a way it shouldn't be. I bet this scenario didn't occur to you.
    This makes a lot of sense then as a temporary solution, but I can't see it being anything other than temporary in the sense that until the infrastructure and rule of law returns to those areas your country is going to keep hemorrhaging wealth and potential prosperity. But I suppose some of the EU economic agreements your country has going on likely give this situation a sense of sustainability and reasonableness...

  4. #144
    Senior Member Array GIjade's Avatar
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    Let's just break up America into two sections, one section for the capitalists and the other for people who actually care about other people.
    “Oh, what a tangled web we weave...when first we practice to deceive.”
    ― Walter Scott, Marmion

  5. #145
    Away Array Xann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIjade View Post
    Let's just break up America into two sections, one section for the capitalists and the other for people who actually care about other people.
    I don't think the men and women could bear to be separated in that manner...

    I think you're misunderstanding both sides entirely if you believe that the two are mutually exclusive.

  6. #146
    Queen hunter Array Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xann View Post
    I just feel it is an illusion to expect with certainty that a socialized healthcare system will adequately be able to provide for medical needs, in a lot of cases the cost/benefit differential is simply astronomical when held under a microscope. Basically in my mind this is a giving up freedom for security situation, where those buying into the system are actually losing both in a lot of ways. Prices of capitalistic healthcare in countries where it is not being subsidized are currently being inflated by a number of other problems (such as drug patent laws and other FDA type institutions), but that is a whole other topic...

    This makes a lot of sense then as a temporary solution, but I can't see it being anything other than temporary in the sense that until the infrastructure and rule of law returns to those areas your country is going to keep hemorrhaging wealth and potential prosperity. But I suppose some of the EU economic agreements your country has going on likely give this situation a sense of sustainability and reasonableness...

    If the costs of socialized healthcare are astronomical then you are doing something wrong with it. In Western countries there are so many private components in healthcare that I can't recognize that as trully socialized, thererefore I can say that you didn't see trully socialized healthcare. (just as I didn't saw the completely capitalistic one) But to tell you the truth I think both extremes are better than the middle ground where it is inevitable that private components will suck out huge amount of tax money. In capitalism market and competency solve the issue and in socialism government and public are much more merged togather and government throught its domination organizes healthcare that does not cost much and provides fairly good quality in order to win simpathies and therefore make itself stabile. Middle way is clearly the worst option in my opinion.


    Yeah this is temporary measure but here something can always come up and changes can be postponed because of that. We joined western association exactly because that is basically the only way that we brake horrible circles that are running the place to the ground. Also don't get me wrong but I am deliberately showing apsurds of my country that are comming from our past but the truth is that that my country today isn't that "black place" these days as it was 20 or so years back.



    I think that mods should move this into my twilight thread, since here that is quite a bit of drail.

  7. #147
    Away Array Xann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    If the costs of socialized healthcare are astronomical then you are doing something wrong with it. In Western countries there are so many private components in healthcare that I can't recognize that as trully socialized, thererefore I can say that you didn't see trully socialized healthcare. (just as I didn't saw the completely capitalistic one)
    Very true, but without an extremely high level of control over the system from an administrative standpoint combined with a nearly godlike understanding as to how the system operates and how it affects individuals within it, as well as comprehension of the true nature of treatments for the vast majority of ailments and of the absolute ideal and most up-to-date methods of how to implement them, it is very very difficult to keep socialized healthcare from growing into a financially vampiric behemoth without the checks and balances of the free market. (Or at least without being able to obtain on a regular basis information as to treatments and methodologies from countries that were able to retain their free market healthcare)

    There is pressure from all sides at all times to pay higher wages, to hire more staff, to implement new remedies, to widen the scope of illnesses that are treatable, to widen the scope of what symptoms are considered illnesses (aka psychological/hypochondria/general stupidity), as well as to build more hospitals, etc. The desired quality of these institutions as well as sense of how much money the workers are perceived to be entitled to in this situation tend to be relative in a sense to the most highly paid private sector employees due to how highly the healthcare sector is regarded by the general public as well as by the government. In this situation, dubiously overpaid government staff begin to have complete control over the amount of money reportedly needed to sustain the system and if there is ever an error at any level that has been overlooked then it is nearly an impossible task to dismantle the entire system and have whatever error there was admitted and begin a system overhaul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    But to tell you the truth I think both extremes are better than the middle ground where it is inevitable that private components will suck out huge amount of tax money. In capitalism market and competency solve the issue and in socialism government and public are much more merged togather and government throught its domination organizes healthcare that does not cost much and provides fairly good quality in order to win simpathies and therefore make itself stabile. Middle way is clearly the worst option in my opinion.
    This is probably true in some ways but sometimes that small amount of private influence is undoubtedly needed to influence the larger system into a correction of some kind. There are definitely all sorts of possibilities for corruption in this mixed set-up but again that could be chalked up to administrative oversights, laziness, or ignorance on the part of the government employees, which happen very very frequently because the public frequently loses the ability to gauge their competence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    Yeah this is temporary measure but here something can always come up and changes can be postponed because of that. We joined western association exactly because that is basically the only way that we brake horrible circles that are running the place to the ground. Also don't get me wrong but I am deliberately showing apsurds of my country that are comming from our past but the truth is that that my country today isn't that "black place" these days as it was 20 or so years back.
    Yeah, I am glad your country is getting better. Mine unfortunately is getting worse...

    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    I think that mods should move this into my twilight thread, since here that is quite a bit of drail.
    If you desire, although I think this conversation benefits this thread greatly in some ways due to it being somewhat of a linchpin issue to the entire debate.

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