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  1. #131
    Parody Parrot meowington's Avatar
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    I'm basically a commie according to American standards but I really do think people who are inventive, work hard, etc. have earned their money except when it gets to more than 10-fold of the capital of other people
    Then it just becomes obscene. Reality check : people make 1000000000000...-fold more money than other people ! That's essentially what's wrong with capitalism imho. That, and the whole eternal growth ideology/religion, whilst living on a globe. Particulary companies who fire entire masses because they'll make less profit than initially expected. There's no justifiable logic in that.
    I hate how capitalism is often considered as logical or rational. It's not. It's just survival of the most ruthless....imho.
    "I’m forever near a stereo saying, ‘What the fuck is this garbage?’ And the answer is always the Red Hot Chili Peppers" ~ Nick Cave
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  2. #132
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    Wanting to get a lot of money for yourself isn't necessarily selfish, but wanting to spend a lot of money on yourself usually is.

  3. #133
    Member ameeker's Avatar
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    I'm not a socialist

  4. #134
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Comunism and socialism are really two very different things. Socialism is the attempt to establish a social security for the lesser lucky in an otherwise capitalistic and rich country. I had a very bad leg injury last year, complicated fracture in the knee region and at the end of they day, it costed me nothing in terms of money. Just a lot of nerves and determination. I wonder what would have been, this happening to me, in a country with no social net, no healthcare. It would have probably ruined me.

    SO while comunism maybe wants to prosecute the rich to give all their money to the poor, socialism tries to establish a security net in society for society. It is basically the attempt for teamwork instead of a one man show. I adhere very much to this concept, tho being no NF. It is a very logical one on the quest of survival.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]
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  5. #135
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    Wanting to get a lot of money for yourself isn't necessarily selfish, but wanting to spend a lot of money on yourself usually is.
    Are you saying if I work my ass off for my money, spending it on myself is selfish?
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  6. #136
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Comunism and socialism are really two very different things. Socialism is the attempt to establish a social security for the lesser lucky in an otherwise capitalistic and rich country. I had a very bad leg injury last year, complicated fracture in the knee region and at the end of they day, it costed me nothing in terms of money. Just a lot of nerves and determination. I wonder what would have been, this happening to me, in a country with no social net, no healthcare. It would have probably ruined me.

    SO while comunism maybe wants to prosecute the rich to give all their money to the poor, socialism tries to establish a security net in society for society. It is basically the attempt for teamwork instead of a one man show. I adhere very much to this concept, tho being no NF. It is a very logical one on the quest of survival.

    As a another European I think that it is sad that so many people around the world simply don't get this idea.

  7. #137
    subterfugee Xann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    As a another European I think that it is sad that so many people around the world simply don't get this idea.
    Many of us do, we just understand that only in an economy held back artificially by eliminating the forces of free market competition by way of socialism could something such as having to pay for their own leg surgery "ruin" someone. You are severely underestimating the power of capitalism (or the understandings of its advocates) because you have never experienced it to the extent others have.

  8. #138
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xann View Post
    Many of us do, we just understand that only in an economy held back artificially by eliminating the forces of free market competition by way of socialism could something such as having to pay for their own leg surgery "ruin" someone. You are severely underestimating the power of capitalism (or the understandings of its advocates) because you have never experienced it to the extent others have.

    In more advanced stuff I am ok with Capitalism, however healthcare for me is the most basic human need and everyone has a right to get their problem solved ragardless of their social status. For example my buissnes partners make a few wrong decisions, we all lose our income/company, in that moment I brake a leg by accident and my life goes to hell. On the technological level of 21th century this is just stupid.


    The problem with healthcare is that people who have problem(s) in this regard are in need that can't be postponed in many cases. What makes them ideal to be victims of blackmail that will come in the form of preverse medical bills. Or there are cases that because of administrative reasons persons insurance get cancel, or they say to a guy that he is ok even if he is not so that they don't have to treat him (what costs money)
    Capitalism and healthcare make too many "what if" situations in one very important area of safety and therefore I don't consider this to be ideal solution. In my part of the world you can't find people who sold their house so that someone could go to therapy of some kind.

    However once you turn the whole thing to market you are risking that money becomes more important than people and I find that problematic, since the main goal of healthcare is not money and it shouldn't be. What is extra problematic since everbody want to work for more so step by step doctors can rise prices where they drain people. (people who have no choice) While this way political figures exchange healthcare service for votes and have to make sure that it stays this way or othervise they will quickly lose quite a bit of votes, what keeps system in balanace. Actually in my country healthcare system is getting more and more capitalistic but it is also becoming more and more shity with that change. (for a number of reasons)


    Therefore in this sphere of life I am perfectly ok with bypassing capitalism, especially since this factor calms the whole society since everbody knows that they are not going to die young because of some random complication in wrong time and that they will get the chance to fight their disease. Broken leg is one turn problem but there are plenty of deseases that need to be threated for years before improvement shows itself and this is where socialized healthcare shows it's strength.


    My 2 cents on healthcare. (to be honest I was thinking about opening the thread about this topic)

  9. #139
    subterfugee Xann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    In more advanced stuff I am ok with Capitalism, however healthcare for me is the most basic human need and everyone has a right to get their problem solved ragardless of their social status. For example my buissnes partners make a few wrong decisions, we all lose our income/company, in that moment I brake a leg by accident and my life goes to hell. On the technological level of 21th century this is just stupid.

    The problem with healthcare is that people who have problem(s) in this regard are in need that can't be postponed in many cases. What makes them ideal to be victims of blackmail that will come in the form of preverse medical bills. Or there are cases that because of administrative reasons persons insurance get cancel, or they say to a guy that he is ok even if he is not so that they don't have to treat him (what costs money)
    Capitalism and healthcare make too many "what if" situations in one very important area of safety and therefore I don't consider this to be ideal solution. In my part of the world you can't find people who sold their house so that someone could go to therapy of some kind.

    However once you turn the whole thing to market you are risking that money becomes more important than people and I find that problematic, since the main goal of healthcare is not money and it shouldn't be. What is extra problematic since everbody want to work for more so step by step doctors can rise prices where they drain people. (people who have no choice) While this way political figures exchange healthcare service for votes and have to make sure that it stays this way or othervise they will quickly lose quite a bit of votes, what keeps system in balanace. Actually in my country healthcare system is getting more and more capitalistic but it is also becoming more and more shity with that change. (for a number of reasons)


    Therefore in this sphere of life I am perfectly ok with bypassing capitalism, especially since this factor calms the whole society since everbody knows that they are not going to die young because of some random complication in wrong time and that they will get the chance to fight their disease. Broken leg is one turn problem but there are plenty of deseases that need to be threated for years before improvement shows itself and this is where socialized healthcare shows it's strength.


    My 2 cents on healthcare. (to be honest I was thinking about opening the thread about this topic)

    Yes, but these are a lot of "what if" situations and it is simply not realistic to expect them all to occur at the same time in anything but the most unfortunate and nearly statistically impossible situations imaginable. If a person manages to:

    -Suddenly lose their job either due to illness or an illness coincidentally strikes at the same time
    -Is unable to find a new job of the same level of income or type due to the nature of their illness
    -Is unable to find a new job of a lower level of income with less hours due to the severity of their illness
    -Is unable to receive any sort of existing welfare or unemployment from the government due to the their country being "full capitalist" in a sense
    -Happens to have no money saved
    -Happens to have no property or anything of any other value to be traded, loaned or sold
    -Happens to have never had the opportunity to purchase health insurance
    -Happens to have an administration error occur on their insurance forcing them to lose their coverage in this situation
    -Happens to have no access to alternate medical venues that could offer services at a more reasonable price or expect payment at a future date once the person was back on their feet
    -Happens to be denied taking out a loan out to pay for whatever medical procedure is needed
    -Happens to have absolutely no family, friends, or acquaintances to fall back on financially or for support in other matters or who are willing to take out a loan for them in this situation that would clearly save their life
    -Is unable to find any charities willing to give them a hand after explaining to them the sheer despair and desperation of their situation despite living in a society in which there is an awareness this situation is possible, enhancing the likelihood and popularity of medical charities
    -Despite suffering all this the individual still desires medical treatment over blowing their brains out

    If all of the above managed to happen at the exact same time to the exact same person, then I'd hazard a guess you'd be living in the Twilight Zone. The sheer infeasibility of these circumstances coming to fruition seeming like a likelihood that could only be staved off via the safety net only socialism could provide is a side-effect of an apparent lifelong subconscious psychological dependence on the government and never having to think of an alternative arrangement.

  10. #140
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xann View Post
    If all of the above managed to happen at the exact same time to the exact same person, then I'd hazard a guess you'd be living in the Twilight Zone. The sheer infeasibility of these circumstances coming to fruition seeming like a likelihood that could only be staved off via the safety net only socialism could provide is a side-effect of an apparent lifelong subconscious psychological dependence on the government and never having to think of an alternative arrangement.

    Well, this is the core of the issue in a way. Since here there is a deficit of certaintly, so this socialized healthcare system is basically the last line of defence for many people and therefore they don't want to give it away. In theory I am ok with capitalistic healthcare but the prices must stay low and acceptable.


    Silly real life example: 30% of my country are ex war zones where economy/infrastructure was completely destroyed and therefore many people moved to other parts of the country and young people especially moved to bigger cities or abroad. Therefore people who live in the devastated zones have to produce their own food and goverment gives them some small amounts of money so that they can pay their bills ( to the government companies). However those people have no means to pay typical healthcare bills and those people are mostly older people and simply can't live without some level of healthcare. What means that they would also go away if there is no healthcare for them, and only government can provide that for basically free to them. Therefore if this practice would end they would move to some cousains or children elsewere and leave the land completely empty. What means that the guys that invaded those places in the first place would just move into empty land and take it as their own.


    Therefore to us healthcare is actually defense budget, since in the twilight zone everything is mixed up in a way it shouldn't be. I bet this scenario didn't occur to you.
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