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  1. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by En Gallop View Post
    Haha well there aren't! You try proving scientifically than one opinion is better than another. It's all bullshit.
    You'd have to define what you mean by science but if you mean that there's objectively a correct and empirically proveable or evidence based approach to analysing politics then I'd say yes.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You'd have to define what you mean by science but if you mean that there's objectively a correct and empirically proveable or evidence based approach to analysing politics then I'd say yes.
    No matter how perfect the solution, people will always fuck it up. The problem with Capitalism and Communism is not the theory (both are quite brilliant) but the people implementing it.

  3. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by En Gallop View Post
    No matter how perfect the solution, people will always fuck it up. The problem with Capitalism and Communism is not the theory (both are quite brilliant) but the people implementing it.
    I think that's a bit simplistic, its also oddly medieval religious in outlook, all people being fallen, irredeemable souls who can not but occasionally or exceptionally be any good.

    It is possible to build systems which respond to individual or personal failings or flaws. They may not be able to eliminate them but they can mitigate them enough for to make them matter less.

    If this were not the case then there could not be what exists already in terms of law, education, economy etc.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think that's a bit simplistic, its also oddly medieval religious in outlook, all people being fallen, irredeemable souls who can not but occasionally or exceptionally be any good.

    It is possible to build systems which respond to individual or personal failings or flaws. They may not be able to eliminate them but they can mitigate them enough for to make them matter less.

    If this were not the case then there could not be what exists already in terms of law, education, economy etc.
    Haha I didn't think it was a religious viewpoint, but if so I agree with the theists in that respect. I believe they have a good point.

    Exactly - THIS is the best we can do. You've made my point beautifully, thanks!

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by En Gallop View Post
    No matter how perfect the solution, people will always fuck it up. The problem with Capitalism and Communism is not the theory (both are quite brilliant) but the people implementing it.
    Once ideologies’ claim to total validity is taken literally they become the nuclei of logical systems in which, as in the systems of paranoiacs, everything follows comprehensibly and even compulsorily once the first premise is accepted. The insanity of such systems lies not only in their first premise but in the very logicality with which they are constructed. The curious logicality of all isms, their simpleminded trust in the salvation value of stubborn devotion without regard for specific, varying factors, already harbors the first germs of totalitarian contempt for reality and factuality.

    -Hannah Arendt
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Once ideologies’ claim to total validity is taken literally they become the nuclei of logical systems in which, as in the systems of paranoiacs, everything follows comprehensibly and even compulsorily once the first premise is accepted. The insanity of such systems lies not only in their first premise but in the very logicality with which they are constructed. The curious logicality of all isms, their simpleminded trust in the salvation value of stubborn devotion without regard for specific, varying factors, already harbors the first germs of totalitarian contempt for reality and factuality.

    -Hannah Arendt
    *nods*

    I'm not sure who that is, but I've been saying similar things less well for ages haha. I totally agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by En Gallop View Post
    *nods*

    I'm not sure who that is, but I've been saying similar things less well for ages haha. I totally agree.
    Well, what that dear old Hannah tried to show here is the exact opposite of what you claimed here.

    The problem is always the theory in itself, not the men who implement it. An ideology will always remain that: an ideology, and ideologies are simplified, seductive abstractions which lure us away from the complexity of the real world.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Well, what that dear old Hannah tried to show here is the exact opposite of what you claimed here.

    The problem is always the theory itself, not the men who implement it. An ideology will always remain that: an ideology.
    A theory, in itself, is never a problem. But to actually try to bring it into the world requires many people to believe in it, which is when it becomes an ideology* and goes wrong.


    *I tend to think of ideologies as things groups of people believe in, not just the theory maker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by En Gallop View Post
    A theory, in itself, is never a problem.
    Do you think theories, ideas and ideals are that innocent and pure, that they appear out of nowhere, that they have no history of their own?
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  10. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by En Gallop View Post
    Haha I didn't think it was a religious viewpoint, but if so I agree with the theists in that respect. I believe they have a good point.

    Exactly - THIS is the best we can do. You've made my point beautifully, thanks!
    And what a point it is...

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