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  1. #1
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Default Interesting description of Ne

    from this article
    Classics in the History of Psychology -- Jung (1921/1923) Chapter 10

    9. The Extraverted Intuitive Type
    Whenever intuition predominates, a particular and unmistakable psychology presents itself. Because intuition is orientated by the object, a decided dependence upon external situations is discernible, but it has an altogether different character from the dependence of the sensational type. The intuitive is never to be found among the generally recognized reality values, but he is always present where possibilities exist. He has a keen nose for things in the bud pregnant with future promise. He can never exist in stable, long-established conditions of generally acknowledged though limited value: because his eye is constantly ranging for new possibilities, stable conditions have an air of impending suffocation. He seizes hold of new objects and new ways with eager intensity, sometimes with extraordinary enthusiasm, only to abandon them cold-bloodedly, without regard and apparently without remembrance, as soon as their range becomes clearly defined and a promise of any considerable future development no longer clings to them. As long as a possibility exists, the intuitive is bound to it with thongs of fate. It is as though his whole life went out into the new situation. One gets the impression, which he himself shares, that he has just reached the definitive turning point in his life, and that from now on nothing else can seriously engage his thought and feeling. How- [p. 465] ever reasonable and opportune it may be, and although every conceivable argument speaks in favour of stability, a day will come when nothing will deter him from regarding as a prison, the self-same situation that seemed to promise him freedom and deliverance, and from acting accordingly. Neither reason nor feeling can restrain or discourage him from a new possibility, even though it may run counter to convictions hitherto unquestioned. Thinking and feeling, the indispensable components of conviction, are, with him, inferior functions, possessing no decisive weight; hence they lack the power to offer any lasting. resistance to the force of intuition. And yet these are the only functions that are capable of creating any effectual compensation to the supremacy of intuition, since they can provide the intuitive with that judgment in which his type is altogether lacking. The morality of the intuitive is governed neither by intellect nor by feeling; he has his own characteristic morality, which consists in a loyalty to his intuitive view of things and a voluntary submission to its authority, Consideration for the welfare of his neighbours is weak. No solid argument hinges upon their well-being any more than upon his own. Neither can we detect in him any great respect for his neighbour's convictions and customs; in fact, he is not infrequently put down as an immoral and ruthless adventurer. Since his intuition is largely concerned with outer objects, scenting out external possibilities, he readily applies himself to callings wherein he may expand his abilities in many directions. Merchants, contractors, speculators, agents, politicians, etc., commonly belong to this type.

    Apparently this type is more prone to favour women than men; in which case, however, the intuitive activity reveals itself not so much in the professional as in the social sphere. Such women understand the art of utilizing every social opportunity; they establish right social con- [p. 466] nections; they seek out lovers with possibilities only to abandon everything again for the sake of a new possibility.

    It is at once clear, both from the standpoint of political economy and on grounds of general culture, that such a type is uncommonly important. If well-intentioned, with an orientation to life not purely egoistical, he may render exceptional service as the promoter, if not the initiator of every kind of promising enterprise. He is the natural advocate of every minority that holds the seed of future promise. Because of his capacity, when orientated more towards men than things, to make an intuitive diagnosis of their abilities and range of usefulness, he can also 'make' men. His capacity to inspire his fellow-men with courage, or to kindle enthusiasm for something new, is unrivalled, although he may have forsworn it by the morrow. The more powerful and vivid his intuition, the more is his subject fused and blended with the divined possibility. He animates it; he presents it in plastic shape and with convincing fire; he almost embodies it. It is not a mere histrionic display, but a fate.

    This attitude has immense dangers -- all too easily the intuitive may squander his life. He spends himself animating men and things, spreading around him an abundance of life -- a life, however, which others live, not he. Were he able to rest with the actual thing, he would gather the fruit of his labours; yet all too soon must he be running after some fresh possibility, quitting his newly planted field, while others reap the harvest. In the end he goes empty away. But when the intuitive lets things reach such a pitch, he also has the unconscious against him. The unconscious of the intuitive has a certain similarity with that of the sensation-type. Thinking and feeling, being relatively repressed, produce infantile and archaic thoughts and feelings in the unconscious, which may be compared [p. 467] with those of the countertype. They likewise come to the surface in the form of intensive projections, and are just as absurd as those of the sensation-type, only to my mind they lack the other's mystical character; they are chiefly concerned with quasi-actual things, in the nature of sexual, financial, and other hazards, as, for instance, suspicions of approaching illness. This difference appears to be due to a repression of the sensations of actual things. These latter usually command attention in the shape of a sudden entanglement with a most unsuitable woman, or, in the case of a woman, with a thoroughly unsuitable man; and this is simply the result of their unwitting contact with the sphere of archaic sensations. But its consequence is an unconsciously compelling tie to an object of incontestable futility. Such an event is already a compulsive symptom, which is also thoroughly characteristic of this type. In common with the sensation-type, he claims a similar freedom and exemption from all restraint, since he suffers no submission of his decisions to rational judgment, relying entirely upon the perception of chance, possibilities. He rids himself of the restrictions of reason, only to fall a victim to unconscious neurotic compulsions in the form of oversubtle, negative reasoning, hair-splitting dialectics, and a compulsive tie to the sensation of the object. His conscious attitude, both to the sensation and the sensed object, is one of sovereign superiority and disregard. Not that he means to be inconsiderate or superior -- he simply does not see the object that everyone else sees; his oblivion is similar to that of the sensation-type -- only, with the latter, the soul of the object is missed. For this oblivion the object sooner or later takes revenge in the form of hypochondriacal, compulsive ideas, phobias, and every imaginable kind of absurd bodily sensation. [p. 468]
    I found it interesting because it gives a more amoral view of Ne doms. where most descriptions make them seem like some sort of 7w6/6w7>9w1>2w3, this description gives a more 7w8 or even 8w7-ish impression. it also seems blatantly Social last

    Edit: important distinction. this article is primarily describing the nature of Ne itself. individual variation based on type (which NP), Enneagram, Instinctual Variant and other factors may be prominent
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  2. #2
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    in my opinion, it supports lots of what I've always disagreed with about typical ENFP descriptions.
    - when you read the Jungian descriptions, it makes mores sense that Ne is often correlated with Enneagram 8 (not necessarily that NPs tend to be 8s, rather that Ne is the function most behaviorally similar to enneagram 8) due to it's tendency to push boundaries and fervently resist external control.
    - when you consider ENFP from a strictly functional perspective, you are NOT looking at the sensitive, conflict avoidant butterfly chaser we're often portrayed as.
    Ne: "these are my ideas and I'm pursuing them no matter how crazy they sound. take it or leave it"
    Fi: "these are my beliefs and I'm not apologizing for them!"
    Te: "this i the correct way to do things based on the evidence we have currently. your emotional reaction to it is irrelevant"
    ^in other words, you are looking at a triple-unapologetic set of functions here which seldom views the approval of others as a relevant factor (even in cases where it actually is)
    - Ne doms often have a dangerous tendency to ignore reality and chase exciting ideas of grandeur before crashing and burning when the need for cold, hard, productivity/functioning within reality sets in. for this reason, Ne doms of both types can have a significant undercurrent of frustration and anger that is rarely mentioned in the descriptions
    - I don't want to say ENFPs are an aggressive type (we usually aren't and unsolicited aggression will typical run contrary to our Fi) but I think most descriptions underestimate the ENFP's tendency to ruthlessly fight for their own freedom and independence when they feel they are being restricted, unable to express themselves, mistreated or controlled.
    - personally, I see your typical ENFP as a very assertive, expansive type who takes life by the horns and isn't afraid of breaking social harmony to do so. the typical (watered down imho) description of ENFP sounds much more like a 6w7/7w6 So/Sx with 2w3 and 9w1 fixes (think Robin Willliams, an ENFP who comes to mind immediately as an archetypal example. in my opinion, he is not), but Ne as a whole seems more like am 8w7 fixed 7w6 or 7w6 fixed 8w7 Sx/Sp. in my opinion, a more typical ENFP is likely to get mistyped for these reasons and probably looks a lot more like someone like Quentin Tarantino
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
    ENFP
    5w4>1w9>2w1 Sx/Sp
    SEE-Fi
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    Motivation: Dark Worker
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Chibi Seme
    MTG Color: black/red
    Male Archtype: King/Lover
    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

  3. #3
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    To me, almost all N dominants seem to be somewhat anxiety prone (I suspect it results from the inherent survival danger of focusing mainly on non-reality), so when I think of a "typical" Ne dom I do think about someone who is expansive and unafraid of breaking from convention, but I also think generally N doms have more faith in their ideas than in themselves or their actions. I don't know very many who are self-assertive in the way that one finds much more consistently with ExxJs or ESxPs.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    in my opinion, it supports lots of what I've always disagreed with about typical ENFP descriptions.
    - when you consider ENFP from a strictly functional perspective, you are NOT looking at the sensitive, conflict avoidant butterfly chaser we're often portrayed as.
    Ne: "these are my ideas and I'm pursuing them no matter how crazy they sound. take it or leave it"
    Fi: "these are my beliefs and I'm not apologizing for them!"
    Te: "this i the correct way to do things based on the evidence we have currently. your emotional reaction to it is irrelevant"
    ^in other words, you are looking at a triple-unapologetic set of functions here which seldom views the approval of others as a relevant factor (even in cases where it actually is)
    - Ne doms often have a dangerous tendency to ignore reality and chase exciting ideas of grandeur before crashing and burning when the need for cold, hard, productivity/functioning within reality sets in. for this reason, Ne doms of both types can have a significant undercurrent of frustration and anger that is rarely mentioned in the descriptions
    - I don't want to say ENFPs are an aggressive type (we usually aren't and unsolicited aggression will typical run contrary to our Fi) but I think most descriptions underestimate the ENFP's tendency to ruthlessly fight for their own freedom and independence when they feel they are being restricted, unable to express themselves, mistreated or controlled.
    - personally, I see your typical ENFP as a very assertive, expansive type who takes life by the horns and isn't afraid of breaking social harmony to do so. the typical (watered down imho) description of ENFP sounds much more like a 6w7/7w6 So/Sx with 2w3 and 9w1 fixes (think Robin Willliams, an ENFP who comes to mind immediately as an archetypal example. in my opinion, he is not), but Ne as a whole seems more like am 8w7 fixed 7w6 or 7w6 fixed 8w7 Sx/Sp. in my opinion, a more typical ENFP is likely to get mistyped for these reasons and probably looks a lot more like someone like Quentin Tarantino
    Don't really have anything constructive to add to this, but I completely agree. Hack into personalitypage and similarminds (and the rest of the horrible MBTI sites that show up on the first page of Google) and rewrite the xNFP descriptions, please?

    also, that Jung excerpt is really interesting. Maybe I just haven't read enough about MBTI, but I've never heard anything mentioned about paranoia in relation to NFPs, but "unconscious neurotic compulsions in the form of oversubtle, negative reasoning, hair-splitting dialectics, and a compulsive tie to the sensation of the object" is a perfect description of the unhealthy trains of thought I tend to go down. Typical descriptions of negative NF traits tend to focus on our supposed naivety and frailty, which is just insulting and -- based on the NFs I've known -- entirely untrue.

  5. #5
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    To me, almost all N dominants seem to be somewhat anxiety prone (I suspect it results from the inherent survival danger of focusing mainly on non-reality), so when I think of a "typical" Ne dom I do think about someone who is expansive and unafraid of breaking from convention, but I also think generally N doms have more faith in their ideas than in themselves or their actions. I don't know very many who are self-assertive in the way that one finds much more consistently with ExxJs or ESxPs.
    I disagree with this. most Ne doms have a zero tolerance policy for people who try to control or mistreat them (though we may be less able to do anything about it via brute force the way an Se dom might).
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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    Motivation: Dark Worker
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Chibi Seme
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    Male Archtype: King/Lover
    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

  6. #6
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I disagree with this. most Ne doms have a zero tolerance policy for people who try to control or mistreat them (though we may be less able to do anything about it via brute force the way an Se dom might).
    I see a mix in enfps. Some take a ton of mistreatment and some do not. I supsect enneatype plays a huge role in determining how assertive an enfp will be. I do like your earlier post about an "unaplogetic triage of functions". That is totally what it feels like. I dont waste too much time listening to others, as they are far too willing to define my path for me.

  7. #7
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I disagree with this. most Ne doms have a zero tolerance policy for people who try to control or mistreat them (though we may be less able to do anything about it via brute force the way an Se dom might).
    Well, I agree that Ne doms tend to be quite outspoken when offended and quite willing to fight against restraint in any form. I just don't think we bring that attitude consistently to all situations. It's more like a reserve to be called upon when needed. I don't really know many Ne doms IRL that come in to situations projecting themselves outwards - I could imagine Enneagram 8, 8w7 in particular, might be an exception to that.
    Last edited by skylights; 01-05-2013 at 04:13 PM.

  8. #8
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    from this article
    Classics in the History of Psychology -- Jung (1921/1923) Chapter 10

    I found it interesting because it gives a more amoral view of Ne doms. where most descriptions make them seem like some sort of 7w6/6w7>9w1>2w3, this description gives a more 7w8 or even 8w7-ish impression. it also seems blatantly Social last

    Edit: important distinction. this article is primarily describing the nature of Ne itself. individual variation based on type (which NP), Enneagram, Instinctual Variant and other factors may be prominent
    AKA the real story of Ne, minus the pandas riding dinosaurs sliding down double rainbows.

    in my opinion, it supports lots of what I've always disagreed with about typical ENFP descriptions.
    - when you read the Jungian descriptions, it makes mores sense that Ne is often correlated with Enneagram 8 (not necessarily that NPs tend to be 8s, rather that Ne is the function most behaviorally similar to enneagram 8) due to it's
    But then the bolting from thing-to-thing is essentially type 7, right?
    Tune into Ventrilo weeknights between 6pm and 1am PST for continuation of universe dominating shenanigans and occassional type-related propaganda.........

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    To me, almost all N dominants seem to be somewhat anxiety prone (I suspect it results from the inherent survival danger of focusing mainly on non-reality), so when I think of a "typical" Ne dom I do think about someone who is expansive and unafraid of breaking from convention, but I also think generally N doms have more faith in their ideas than in themselves or their actions. I don't know very many who are self-assertive in the way that one finds much more consistently with ExxJs or ESxPs.
    Agreed

  10. #10
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    @The Great One requested I mention him
    I summon thee!
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
    ENFP
    5w4>1w9>2w1 Sx/Sp
    SEE-Fi
    Papa Bear
    Motivation: Dark Worker
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Chibi Seme
    MTG Color: black/red
    Male Archtype: King/Lover
    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

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