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[Ne] Interesting description of Ne

Elfboy

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from this article
Classics in the History of Psychology -- Jung (1921/1923) Chapter 10

9. The Extraverted Intuitive Type
Whenever intuition predominates, a particular and unmistakable psychology presents itself. Because intuition is orientated by the object, a decided dependence upon external situations is discernible, but it has an altogether different character from the dependence of the sensational type. The intuitive is never to be found among the generally recognized reality values, but he is always present where possibilities exist. He has a keen nose for things in the bud pregnant with future promise. He can never exist in stable, long-established conditions of generally acknowledged though limited value: because his eye is constantly ranging for new possibilities, stable conditions have an air of impending suffocation. He seizes hold of new objects and new ways with eager intensity, sometimes with extraordinary enthusiasm, only to abandon them cold-bloodedly, without regard and apparently without remembrance, as soon as their range becomes clearly defined and a promise of any considerable future development no longer clings to them. As long as a possibility exists, the intuitive is bound to it with thongs of fate. It is as though his whole life went out into the new situation. One gets the impression, which he himself shares, that he has just reached the definitive turning point in his life, and that from now on nothing else can seriously engage his thought and feeling. How- [p. 465] ever reasonable and opportune it may be, and although every conceivable argument speaks in favour of stability, a day will come when nothing will deter him from regarding as a prison, the self-same situation that seemed to promise him freedom and deliverance, and from acting accordingly. Neither reason nor feeling can restrain or discourage him from a new possibility, even though it may run counter to convictions hitherto unquestioned. Thinking and feeling, the indispensable components of conviction, are, with him, inferior functions, possessing no decisive weight; hence they lack the power to offer any lasting. resistance to the force of intuition. And yet these are the only functions that are capable of creating any effectual compensation to the supremacy of intuition, since they can provide the intuitive with that judgment in which his type is altogether lacking. The morality of the intuitive is governed neither by intellect nor by feeling; he has his own characteristic morality, which consists in a loyalty to his intuitive view of things and a voluntary submission to its authority, Consideration for the welfare of his neighbours is weak. No solid argument hinges upon their well-being any more than upon his own. Neither can we detect in him any great respect for his neighbour's convictions and customs; in fact, he is not infrequently put down as an immoral and ruthless adventurer. Since his intuition is largely concerned with outer objects, scenting out external possibilities, he readily applies himself to callings wherein he may expand his abilities in many directions. Merchants, contractors, speculators, agents, politicians, etc., commonly belong to this type.

Apparently this type is more prone to favour women than men; in which case, however, the intuitive activity reveals itself not so much in the professional as in the social sphere. Such women understand the art of utilizing every social opportunity; they establish right social con- [p. 466] nections; they seek out lovers with possibilities only to abandon everything again for the sake of a new possibility.

It is at once clear, both from the standpoint of political economy and on grounds of general culture, that such a type is uncommonly important. If well-intentioned, with an orientation to life not purely egoistical, he may render exceptional service as the promoter, if not the initiator of every kind of promising enterprise. He is the natural advocate of every minority that holds the seed of future promise. Because of his capacity, when orientated more towards men than things, to make an intuitive diagnosis of their abilities and range of usefulness, he can also 'make' men. His capacity to inspire his fellow-men with courage, or to kindle enthusiasm for something new, is unrivalled, although he may have forsworn it by the morrow. The more powerful and vivid his intuition, the more is his subject fused and blended with the divined possibility. He animates it; he presents it in plastic shape and with convincing fire; he almost embodies it. It is not a mere histrionic display, but a fate.

This attitude has immense dangers -- all too easily the intuitive may squander his life. He spends himself animating men and things, spreading around him an abundance of life -- a life, however, which others live, not he. Were he able to rest with the actual thing, he would gather the fruit of his labours; yet all too soon must he be running after some fresh possibility, quitting his newly planted field, while others reap the harvest. In the end he goes empty away. But when the intuitive lets things reach such a pitch, he also has the unconscious against him. The unconscious of the intuitive has a certain similarity with that of the sensation-type. Thinking and feeling, being relatively repressed, produce infantile and archaic thoughts and feelings in the unconscious, which may be compared [p. 467] with those of the countertype. They likewise come to the surface in the form of intensive projections, and are just as absurd as those of the sensation-type, only to my mind they lack the other's mystical character; they are chiefly concerned with quasi-actual things, in the nature of sexual, financial, and other hazards, as, for instance, suspicions of approaching illness. This difference appears to be due to a repression of the sensations of actual things. These latter usually command attention in the shape of a sudden entanglement with a most unsuitable woman, or, in the case of a woman, with a thoroughly unsuitable man; and this is simply the result of their unwitting contact with the sphere of archaic sensations. But its consequence is an unconsciously compelling tie to an object of incontestable futility. Such an event is already a compulsive symptom, which is also thoroughly characteristic of this type. In common with the sensation-type, he claims a similar freedom and exemption from all restraint, since he suffers no submission of his decisions to rational judgment, relying entirely upon the perception of chance, possibilities. He rids himself of the restrictions of reason, only to fall a victim to unconscious neurotic compulsions in the form of oversubtle, negative reasoning, hair-splitting dialectics, and a compulsive tie to the sensation of the object. His conscious attitude, both to the sensation and the sensed object, is one of sovereign superiority and disregard. Not that he means to be inconsiderate or superior -- he simply does not see the object that everyone else sees; his oblivion is similar to that of the sensation-type -- only, with the latter, the soul of the object is missed. For this oblivion the object sooner or later takes revenge in the form of hypochondriacal, compulsive ideas, phobias, and every imaginable kind of absurd bodily sensation. [p. 468]

I found it interesting because it gives a more amoral view of Ne doms. where most descriptions make them seem like some sort of 7w6/6w7>9w1>2w3, this description gives a more 7w8 or even 8w7-ish impression. it also seems blatantly Social last

Edit: important distinction. this article is primarily describing the nature of Ne itself. individual variation based on type (which NP), Enneagram, Instinctual Variant and other factors may be prominent
 

Elfboy

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in my opinion, it supports lots of what I've always disagreed with about typical ENFP descriptions.
- when you read the Jungian descriptions, it makes mores sense that Ne is often correlated with Enneagram 8 (not necessarily that NPs tend to be 8s, rather that Ne is the function most behaviorally similar to enneagram 8) due to it's tendency to push boundaries and fervently resist external control.
- when you consider ENFP from a strictly functional perspective, you are NOT looking at the sensitive, conflict avoidant butterfly chaser we're often portrayed as.
Ne: "these are my ideas and I'm pursuing them no matter how crazy they sound. take it or leave it"
Fi: "these are my beliefs and I'm not apologizing for them!"
Te: "this i the correct way to do things based on the evidence we have currently. your emotional reaction to it is irrelevant"
^in other words, you are looking at a triple-unapologetic set of functions here which seldom views the approval of others as a relevant factor (even in cases where it actually is)
- Ne doms often have a dangerous tendency to ignore reality and chase exciting ideas of grandeur before crashing and burning when the need for cold, hard, productivity/functioning within reality sets in. for this reason, Ne doms of both types can have a significant undercurrent of frustration and anger that is rarely mentioned in the descriptions
- I don't want to say ENFPs are an aggressive type (we usually aren't and unsolicited aggression will typical run contrary to our Fi) but I think most descriptions underestimate the ENFP's tendency to ruthlessly fight for their own freedom and independence when they feel they are being restricted, unable to express themselves, mistreated or controlled.
- personally, I see your typical ENFP as a very assertive, expansive type who takes life by the horns and isn't afraid of breaking social harmony to do so. the typical (watered down imho) description of ENFP sounds much more like a 6w7/7w6 So/Sx with 2w3 and 9w1 fixes (think Robin Willliams, an ENFP who comes to mind immediately as an archetypal example. in my opinion, he is not), but Ne as a whole seems more like am 8w7 fixed 7w6 or 7w6 fixed 8w7 Sx/Sp. in my opinion, a more typical ENFP is likely to get mistyped for these reasons and probably looks a lot more like someone like Quentin Tarantino
 

skylights

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To me, almost all N dominants seem to be somewhat anxiety prone (I suspect it results from the inherent survival danger of focusing mainly on non-reality), so when I think of a "typical" Ne dom I do think about someone who is expansive and unafraid of breaking from convention, but I also think generally N doms have more faith in their ideas than in themselves or their actions. I don't know very many who are self-assertive in the way that one finds much more consistently with ExxJs or ESxPs.
 

mintleaf

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in my opinion, it supports lots of what I've always disagreed with about typical ENFP descriptions.
- when you consider ENFP from a strictly functional perspective, you are NOT looking at the sensitive, conflict avoidant butterfly chaser we're often portrayed as.
Ne: "these are my ideas and I'm pursuing them no matter how crazy they sound. take it or leave it"
Fi: "these are my beliefs and I'm not apologizing for them!"
Te: "this i the correct way to do things based on the evidence we have currently. your emotional reaction to it is irrelevant"
^in other words, you are looking at a triple-unapologetic set of functions here which seldom views the approval of others as a relevant factor (even in cases where it actually is)
- Ne doms often have a dangerous tendency to ignore reality and chase exciting ideas of grandeur before crashing and burning when the need for cold, hard, productivity/functioning within reality sets in. for this reason, Ne doms of both types can have a significant undercurrent of frustration and anger that is rarely mentioned in the descriptions
- I don't want to say ENFPs are an aggressive type (we usually aren't and unsolicited aggression will typical run contrary to our Fi) but I think most descriptions underestimate the ENFP's tendency to ruthlessly fight for their own freedom and independence when they feel they are being restricted, unable to express themselves, mistreated or controlled.
- personally, I see your typical ENFP as a very assertive, expansive type who takes life by the horns and isn't afraid of breaking social harmony to do so. the typical (watered down imho) description of ENFP sounds much more like a 6w7/7w6 So/Sx with 2w3 and 9w1 fixes (think Robin Willliams, an ENFP who comes to mind immediately as an archetypal example. in my opinion, he is not), but Ne as a whole seems more like am 8w7 fixed 7w6 or 7w6 fixed 8w7 Sx/Sp. in my opinion, a more typical ENFP is likely to get mistyped for these reasons and probably looks a lot more like someone like Quentin Tarantino

Don't really have anything constructive to add to this, but I completely agree. Hack into personalitypage and similarminds (and the rest of the horrible MBTI sites that show up on the first page of Google) and rewrite the xNFP descriptions, please?

also, that Jung excerpt is really interesting. Maybe I just haven't read enough about MBTI, but I've never heard anything mentioned about paranoia in relation to NFPs, but "unconscious neurotic compulsions in the form of oversubtle, negative reasoning, hair-splitting dialectics, and a compulsive tie to the sensation of the object" is a perfect description of the unhealthy trains of thought I tend to go down. Typical descriptions of negative NF traits tend to focus on our supposed naivety and frailty, which is just insulting and -- based on the NFs I've known -- entirely untrue.
 

Elfboy

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To me, almost all N dominants seem to be somewhat anxiety prone (I suspect it results from the inherent survival danger of focusing mainly on non-reality), so when I think of a "typical" Ne dom I do think about someone who is expansive and unafraid of breaking from convention, but I also think generally N doms have more faith in their ideas than in themselves or their actions. I don't know very many who are self-assertive in the way that one finds much more consistently with ExxJs or ESxPs.

I disagree with this. most Ne doms have a zero tolerance policy for people who try to control or mistreat them (though we may be less able to do anything about it via brute force the way an Se dom might).
 

sculpting

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I disagree with this. most Ne doms have a zero tolerance policy for people who try to control or mistreat them (though we may be less able to do anything about it via brute force the way an Se dom might).

I see a mix in enfps. Some take a ton of mistreatment and some do not. I supsect enneatype plays a huge role in determining how assertive an enfp will be. I do like your earlier post about an "unaplogetic triage of functions". :) That is totally what it feels like. I dont waste too much time listening to others, as they are far too willing to define my path for me. :devil:
 

skylights

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I disagree with this. most Ne doms have a zero tolerance policy for people who try to control or mistreat them (though we may be less able to do anything about it via brute force the way an Se dom might).

Well, I agree that Ne doms tend to be quite outspoken when offended and quite willing to fight against restraint in any form. I just don't think we bring that attitude consistently to all situations. It's more like a reserve to be called upon when needed. I don't really know many Ne doms IRL that come in to situations projecting themselves outwards - I could imagine Enneagram 8, 8w7 in particular, might be an exception to that.
 
Last edited:

lunalum

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from this article
Classics in the History of Psychology -- Jung (1921/1923) Chapter 10

I found it interesting because it gives a more amoral view of Ne doms. where most descriptions make them seem like some sort of 7w6/6w7>9w1>2w3, this description gives a more 7w8 or even 8w7-ish impression. it also seems blatantly Social last

Edit: important distinction. this article is primarily describing the nature of Ne itself. individual variation based on type (which NP), Enneagram, Instinctual Variant and other factors may be prominent

AKA the real story of Ne, minus the pandas riding dinosaurs sliding down double rainbows.

in my opinion, it supports lots of what I've always disagreed with about typical ENFP descriptions.
- when you read the Jungian descriptions, it makes mores sense that Ne is often correlated with Enneagram 8 (not necessarily that NPs tend to be 8s, rather that Ne is the function most behaviorally similar to enneagram 8) due to it's

But then the bolting from thing-to-thing is essentially type 7, right? ;)
 
A

A_priori

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To me, almost all N dominants seem to be somewhat anxiety prone (I suspect it results from the inherent survival danger of focusing mainly on non-reality), so when I think of a "typical" Ne dom I do think about someone who is expansive and unafraid of breaking from convention, but I also think generally N doms have more faith in their ideas than in themselves or their actions. I don't know very many who are self-assertive in the way that one finds much more consistently with ExxJs or ESxPs.

Agreed
 

Elfboy

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[MENTION=15607]The Great One[/MENTION] requested I mention him
I summon thee!
 

The Great One

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I disagree with this. most Ne doms have a zero tolerance policy for people who try to control or mistreat them (though we may be less able to do anything about it via brute force the way an Se dom might).

I think that you have a very misconstrued concept of ENFP's. You that most ENFP's are like you are are very aggressive when it comes to defending their values, but I would disagree. I would say that you are definitely an odd ENFP. Most ENFP's are not like you.
 

lunalum

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I think that you have a very misconstrued concept of ENFP's. You that most ENFP's are like you are are very aggressive when it comes to defending their values, but I would disagree. I would say that you are definitely an odd ENFP. Most ENFP's are not like you.

I disagree with your disagreement with Elfboy's concept...... I don't think you give full credit to how harsh Fi really often is, and Ne can sort of fuel that fire.
 

The Great One

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I disagree with your disagreement with Elfboy's concept...... I don't think you give full credit to how harsh Fi really often is, and Ne can sort of fuel that fire.

Ne is not harsh, nor is Fi. It is the Te reinforcing that Fi that is the harsh component in the equation. Fi is the judge, and Te is the executioner.
 

lunalum

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Ne is not harsh, nor is Fi. It is the Te reinforcing that Fi that is the harsh component in the equation. Fi is the judge, and Te is the executioner.


And judges aren't harsh? ;) Nice play on words with the "executioner" thing but Te really doesn't function in the value-loaded realm you imply it does without Fi. Te in itself just sort of the habituation of surface analyzing.

And I didn't mean that Ne is harsh, but that perceptions can fuel judgements.
 
W

WALMART

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Interesting, they came to the same conclusion of it favoring women than men, as I did.
 

Il Morto Che Parla

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The morality of the intuitive is governed neither by intellect nor by feeling; he has his own characteristic morality, which consists in a loyalty to his intuitive view of things and a voluntary submission to its authority, Consideration for the welfare of his neighbours is weak. No solid argument hinges upon their well-being any more than upon his own. Neither can we detect in him any great respect for his neighbour's convictions and customs; in fact, he is not infrequently put down as an immoral and ruthless adventurer. Since his intuition is largely concerned with outer objects, scenting out external possibilities, he readily applies himself to callings wherein he may expand his abilities in many directions. Merchants, contractors, speculators, agents, politicians, etc., commonly belong to this type.

Apparently this type is more prone to favour women than men; in which case, however, the intuitive activity reveals itself not so much in the professional as in the social sphere. Such women understand the art of utilizing every social opportunity; they establish right social con- [p. 466] nections; they seek out lovers with possibilities only to abandon everything again for the sake of a new possibility.

A lot of this could very easily apply to SP's.

I'm not too convinced by the article, he's mixing a lot of unrelated concepts I think.

Interesting, they came to the same conclusion of it favoring women than men, as I did.

Well the phrase "female intuition" is well known. Though I don't know how much it relates to Jungian iNtuition.

Cue you giving me some crap about translating into the "lexicon" blah blah blah :p
 
W

WALMART

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Well the phrase "female intuition" is well known. Though I don't know how much it relates to Jungian iNtuition.

Cue you giving me some crap about translating into the "lexicon" blah blah blah :p


Actually, it fits in quite well to the modern lexicon :p


I simply believe women think two steps ahead more often than men do, for better or worse. I wonder if I am subscribing to stereotypical connotations with this thinking.
 
G

Glycerine

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I disagree with your disagreement with Elfboy's concept...... I don't think you give full credit to how harsh Fi really often is, and Ne can sort of fuel that fire.
Aren't ENFPs called "The Champions" because their usually championing their causes? :D
 

lunalum

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Actually, it fits in quite well to the modern lexicon :p


I simply believe women think two steps ahead more often than men do, for better or worse. I wonder if I am subscribing to stereotypical connotations with this thinking.


If you are thinking of for worse and in terms of stereotype, you may be thinking of that stereotypical catastrophizing slippery slope drama llama thing, which is more of form-of-the-inferior-Ne than something of the extraverted intuitive type.
 
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WALMART

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If you are thinking of for worse and in terms of stereotype, you may be thinking of that stereotypical catastrophizing slippery slope drama llama thing, which is more of form-of-the-inferior-Ne than something of the extraverted intuitive type.


I'd agree with that. I think the healthy manifestation presents itself much more commonly than the things we now speak of.
 
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