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[NF] INFPs, what do INFJs do that drives you nuts?

Z Buck McFate

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I maybe missed something, but I don't understand where people are getting the impression Tiltyred's post was directed at PB.

Also, I agree with what cascadeco wrote. I don't have time just now to expound, but wanted to at least say I'm a bit puzzled about this attachment of it to PB. :shrug:
 

King sns

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I maybe missed something, but I don't understand where people are getting the impression Tiltyred's post was directed at PB.

Also, I agree with what cascadeco wrote. I don't have time just now to expound, but wanted to at least say I'm a bit puzzled about this attachment of it to PB. :shrug:

Well, the insult was directed at others (plural) possibly so that the impact could spread amongst us. (I personally absorbed the pain of the noodly head part.) Perhaps she used this method so that the insult wasn't directed at specific individual(s) which could be construed as a "personal" attack which is against forum rules.
 

PeaceBaby

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I maybe missed something, but I don't understand where people are getting the impression Tiltyred's post was directed at PB.

I think it was directed primarily towards Mane and OA. Still, that doesn't make it any more palatable.
 

Tiltyred

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Well, I didn't mean you, Shorty-boo. :wubbie:
 

cascadeco

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Cascadeco, you haven't done anything to anyone, yet you've lost a night's sleep and several hours on this. It's bullshit. :smile: It's brilliant bullshit, but it's bullshit. (If you walk away from it and refuse to participate any longer, you're probably just another one of those unremorseful, unrepentant INFJs, see how that works?) omg srsly

Well, I'm losing sleep because I start losing sleep whenever there's conflict or I'm doing a lot of analysis to try to figure something out, or am trying to pinpoint what exactly is going on. So it's certainly not unique to just this thread, it's just how I operate if I am bothered by something, or unsure of something. I mentioned that only to try to indicate to the masses that it was impacting me enough to cause me stress, just to try to be honest in this thread. But it impacting me negatively isn't necessarily a bad thing, it just means I'm physiologically impacted by things of this nature, lol.

Note though that I never said I was done thinking about it!! It would take me a long while I think to really figure out what I think about this entire thread. :) Take that however you like...:shrug:
 

Z Buck McFate

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I think it was directed primarily towards Mane and OA. Still, that doesn't make it any more palatable.


Okay, I'm only just stopping by the laptop briefly here and I'm saying this not having digested fully what's going on- but just want to leave a tiny bit of food for thought here: it seems to me like this exact sentiment could apply to the way we've been reacting to OA's list in the first place. "It seems to be directed primarily to INFJs OA has had bad experiences with, but that doesn't make it any more palatable."

What is it that's different here- how is what Tiltyred posted not her "story", and criticizing her comment not "invalidating her experience"? Yes, it's worded strongly. Perhaps worded too strongly to seem fair? (If yes, would it be invalidating your experience to say "It's childish to call it unfair"?.....after all, it's just Tiltyred's opinion, right?)


[I apologize for posting this and taking off- it's just the thoughts I had while reading just now.]
 

Tiltyred

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S

Society

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That is totally understandable. However, evil psychotic bitches do evil psychotic stuff because they are evil and psychotic.


[MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION] -- did you cheat on your wife?

nope:


I think that is going too far...there is enough hostility, assumptions of hostility, and hasty reactions going on. Please don't add more to it, that's not going to help matters.

i don't know if you noticed, but she's... not wrong. asking "INFJs to prove that they bleed", or rather, prove that they carry the scars, is, in a manner of speaking, what went on.

from my perspective, i can claim no naivety in the matter, the chances of nobody's feelings being hurt in the process where very very very slim, and i saw that going in. as far as i am concerned, considering all the horrible paths it could have taken, the damage so far seems to me to be as minimal as anyone could have hoped.
 

Tigerlily

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I say we ALL bury the hatchet and go out for drinks!
group-hug.gif
barman.gif
:drunk:
 

Tiltyred

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Yay! Bury the hatchet! If I could just get one of them to hold still long enough! :angry:
 

Esoteric Wench

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...how is what Tiltyred posted not her "story", and criticizing her comment not "invalidating her experience"? Yes, it's worded strongly. Perhaps worded too strongly to seem fair? (If yes, would it be invalidating your experience to say "It's childish to call it unfair"?.....after all, it's just Tiltyred's opinion, right?)

The major problem I have with what Tiltyred wrote is not with the frustrations she expressed. Those are "her story" and I have no problem with her expressing this. However, intertwined with reasonably expressed frustrations were personal insults, aka an ad hominem attack.

From Wikipedia: An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an argument made personally against an opponent instead of against their argument.

Rather than keeping her comments on point about why certain non-INFJs were behaving in a manner she didn't like, she started attacking people personally:

Screw you blood sucking, mind-fucking, emotionally deaf and dumb, clueless, neurotic, noodly-headed biatches. Leave us alone. You don't have to like us or approve of us.

I'm not invalidating that she was feeling frustrated and fed up. She obviously was. I acknowledge and validate this. I'm just saying that the manner in which she chose to express herself was unnecessarily vituperative. There was simply no need for it. Not only did it not help her make her argument, it was needlessly hurtful. In other words, stick with the straight facts instead of going with the personal attacks.
 

PeaceBaby

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I'm rewinding back a long ways - I've just gone back to see if OA's list feels like an ad hominem approach to INFJ's.

Here's point 1 & 2 from her list (I've deleted OA's disclaimer preface):

1. General paranoia. Example: everyone is out to get them for no good reason. All of their problems are due to these people who are out to get them, and there is absolutely nothing they have done to spur these people, of course. In reality, these people may not like them, but they are ignoring the INFJ, not out to get them; OR the INFJ has given them a reason to react that way.

2. Selfishness & in denial about it. Playing tyrant/victim, whichever suits them to get their way. They pat themselves on the back for being so "giving", but they only give in ways that suits them (ie. benefits them also in some way), not according to what people truly need & are even asking for.​

Now, in that thread, [MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION] responded to the points:

1. General paranoia.
Yes, but it isn't "everyone is out to get them." It's more like if they get burned once, they put up major walls to prevent getting burned again, or if that's impossible, they gloomily predict getting burned again. AND they're often correct about it. One INFJ friend of mine was fairly good at predicting when he'd get let go from a job. Now, he'd predict it more often than would happen, but he was still uncannily accurate.

2. Selfishness & in denial about it. Playing tyrant/victim, whichever suits them to get their way. They pat themselves on the back for being so "giving", but they only give in ways that suits them (ie. benefits them also in some way), not according to what people truly need & are even asking for.
Yes and no. The selfishness aspect is Ni. Ni dominant means we're in our heads all the time. That makes us fairly oblivious to our selfish tendencies, because we're mostly "selfish" because we aren't paying attention to that sort of thing. Even auxiliary Fe doesn't always ameliorate this all the time (for the same reason that aux Te doesn't always make INTJs logical). And for the same reason that not all INTJs are super-logical as they pretend to be, not all INFJs are truly emotionally aware as they pretend to be. Or rather, INTJs are super-logical about particular things, not everything, and INFJs are exceptionally emotionally aware about particular things, not everything.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33051&page=6&p=1668434&viewfull=1#post1668434


Now, I daresay, this is exactly what [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] was looking for in response from INFJ's. Say yes, say no, point / counter-point. Not saying that uumlau is right or wrong either, just what his experience was, and I'm just including this for illustrative purposes. Maybe that's it though, it really is a third party thing. But I'd rather get the story first-hand! I would want to hear it from INFJ's!

Maybe it all fell apart at the "remorse" stage. Thanks Mane.

[MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION]: If you find OA's approach comparable to Tilty's ie you find that her list is just a short-hand for calling INFJ's "blood sucking, mind-fucking, emotionally deaf and dumb, clueless, neurotic, noodly-headed biatches" then I guess I'll concede that point.
 

cafe

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OrangeAppled

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Now, I daresay, this is exactly what OrangeAppled was looking for in response from INFJ's. Say yes, say no, point / counter-point.

Pretty much. It didn't really become "personal". It stayed general & in the realm of theory. That's where I hoped this would stay. I hoped I'd get a theoretical breakdown of how remorse plays out in an INFJ.

Mane's contribution made it take a different turn (such as adding the word "remorse", which I still thank him for; no, I see no manipulative villain in him either...rather, he has helped restore good faith). My last post was pretty much meant to be my exit post, in terms of discussing the actual topic. I thought it was clear that I sought no more & was satisfied with what I had gleaned. I didn't expect anyone to start giving lengthy personal remorse stories after that. As I said above, I thought it would stay in a sort of impersonal, analysis realm where we'd talk about concepts, not pour our hearts out. But I thank those who did and hope the process was beneficial in some way for you as well.

I can see my motivations are going to continue to be vilified though, even by those who claim they accepted my real intent. No honest communication can occur if that's the case. It seems like there was some honest communication there for a moment though, and again, I thank those who contributed.

If you find OA's approach comparable to Tilty's ie you find that her list is just a short-hand for calling INFJ's "blood sucking, mind-fucking, emotionally deaf and dumb, clueless, neurotic, noodly-headed biatches" then I guess I'll concede that point.

There's an obvious difference. It only has to be explained if people insist on making everything black & white, in which case, they don't really want to understand the difference. These detractors don't have anything to do with the core discussion though. They can't contribute nor take away.

Also, let's review the thread title: "INFPs, what do INFJs do that drives you nuts?". My initial post was answering that question, which was solicited by an INFJ. The first few paragraphs were certainly wry, and I don't see the difference between it and INFP fluffy bunny half-jokes, or ESTJ micro-manager half-jokes, etc. I didn't think INFJs were above a razz, and of course there is some real irritation there (see the thread topic again). The list was reposted out of laziness to rewrite those irritations, but with a genuine desire to discuss these patterns I saw & get some real understanding. But I've explained my motives soooo many times now.... and no one is able to successfully pin any other on me short of creating a strawman, conveniently leaving out details which don't align with their dismissal. I truly think many have not even read all of my posts in full, nor followed the core discussion.

Personally, Tilty's post is the sort of thing that's a minor blip on my radar. If it was actually witty, then maybe I'd laugh. Maybe if it was connected to theory & seeking understanding, then it would catch my attention. I won't be losing sleep over it or any of the other detractors' comments; that's for sure. I will say that in spite of it, I have shaken the pattern for INFJs like an etch a sketch and hit the reset on my benefit of the doubt.

That's my summary of the thread.
 

Cimarron

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We're still taking admissions/conversions back into the ISFJ camp.... This NF stuff isn't all it's cracked up to be. :jew:
 
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