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[NF] INFPs, what do INFJs do that drives you nuts?

cascadeco

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i suppose you mean this:


honestly no, it's not. from an outside perspective, it is incredibly general and you aren't taking responsibility for anything specific you've done

Good heavens, what specifically HAS she done? Does she need to apologize for her very existence and the fact that she processes and thinks in certain ways?
 
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I can provide you a very specific incident or two fairly recently where I have hurt someone in my life and offered them my remorse. But I am not sure if there is any point. I don't think you're going to accept any remorse from INFJs as valid in this thread. HOwever, let me know if you want to hear the examples.

yes, that would probably be a much better approach.
 

miss fortune

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oh wow... what the fuck? seriously! :doh:

because ted bundy was a white dude does that mean that I get to wander up to any white dude I see and demand an apology for his type's crimes against my gender? :huh: does that make all white men liars?

or perhaps I should apologize to a few members of this site who had bad past experiences with alcoholics because I'm a recovering one myself and you know that we're all liars, so why not just demand it from me? :thelook:

and I'd really like an apology from the black members of this site to make up for the dude who hit my parked car a couple of years ago... that makes sense... right?

seriously [MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION]... listen to yourself, you're illustrating my point that typism is akin to racism... these ladies never did a fucking thing to you so why take it out on them? buy a speed bag if you need something to take your frustration out on, don't do it to people who haven't even met you :2ar15:
 
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Good heavens, what specifically HAS she done?

i don't know that she did anything before that point, i wasn't following her every single word or anyone's every word throughout the thread (i mean this is a really long thread), which is why i am entirely open and hopeful to the possibility someone has expressed remorse throughout this thread which she says to have seen and done, and is a lot more likely to remember it and where it was since she is the one who saw it and did it thus the memory would be in her head not mine. its entirely possible that she had nothing to show remorse for, in which case her statement that it was an expression of remorse would still be wrong. i was stating that it didn't make sense as remorse since she then went on to do the exact same thing she claimed to be feeling remorseful for.

Does she need to apologize for her very existence and the fact that she processes and thinks in certain ways?

i really hope that's not the case, i don't know if you noticed, but examples breaking the pattern between "processing and thinking in those certain ways" and an incapacity to show remorse are exactly what i am asking for.

what i was sating to began with was that the assumption that it - and critical elements of it - isn't there, is very strongly present throughout the critique INFJs have recieved throughout the thread, a conclusion which i wasn't a 100% sure about as the engulfing pattern, but since i jumped in i received PMs confirming that it was indeed the base assumption. i am coming forward and asking to show it isn't true.

how can i explain this in any more obvious terms? ladies, i've noticed people have being saying you can't walk, if you know it to be wrong, please, just show us, get off the freaking wheelchair.
 

cascadeco

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what i was sating to began with was that the assumption that it - and critical elements of it - isn't there, is very strongly present throughout the critique INFJs have recieved throughout the thread, a conclusion which i wasn't a 100% sure about as the engulfing pattern, but since i jumped in i received PMs confirming that it was indeed the base assumption. i am coming forward and asking to show it isn't true.

To the bolded, I'd be equally interested in seeing the evidence and proof that the other 15 types do all show remorse in a way that apparently infj's do not. I mean, it seems reasonable, given that you're asking infj's to disprove your assertion that infj's don't show remorse.
 
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because ted bundy was a white dude does that mean that I get to wander up to any white dude I see and demand an apology for his type's crimes against my gender?

yea that's totally the same, except nobody is asking them to show remorse for what someone else did, i'm asking them to give examples of remorse for something they did.

and in taking the metaphor from a different direction: finding a white guy who isn't a rapist or a black guy who didn't hit anyone's parked car are extremely easy. it should likewise be easy to find an INFJ who has experienced and expressed remorse for various actions that they themselves did and felt bad about - like any normal human being - should be extremely easy.
 

Fidelia

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Mane, I'm sorry that you had a bad experience with someone you cared for tremendously and got burned both financially and emotionally.

However, my taking responsibility for her actions wouldn't solve a thing and what's more, it would be inauthentic coming from me because I don't feel responsible for the decisions all people of my type make.

While each type may express unhealthy behaviours in a way more typical of their type, it does not mean that those behaviours define the type. When I first came here I was in the throes of a breakup with someone I had cared tremendously for and who was acting very uncharacteristically of his former self. EJCC's Ask an ESTJ thread was tremendously helpful for me to understand the thinking patterns of that type and typical ways that they might communicate. Ultimately, I had to conclude that his behaviour was not so much the result of being an ESTJ, but rather that it was the result of his individual experiences and choices expressed in a ESTJ style, but not typical of all ESTJs.

Any of those helpful ESTJs apologizing for the loose ends he left untied or the questions I still had still couldn't possibly help me resolve my own conflicted feelings simply because they weren't him! Of course I didn't want to feel that my judgement was that poor, or that he hadn't cared for me, or that the traits I liked in him were just a facade and so it was tempting to try to understand the type, in hopes of understanding him and explaining away some of the things I didn't like with new context or more information.

The only thing that's given perspective for me is more time and distance, which allow me to see our interactions with more clarity. I can see what drew me to him, why he couldn't get emotionally close although he wanted to, why I entered a relationship that I could have foretold the outcome of fairly easily from the start, and appreciate the good things, while still recognizing some destructive patterns that had developed and which wouldn't have made it a sustainable relationship. I don't think there's any way to skip over that process and the longer the relationship has been and deeper it was, the longer it will take to sort all that out.

If you're looking for INFJs to outline their specific personal shortcomings with people they have been close to, I don't think you're going to get that unless you are in their most trusted inner circle. It's not a matter of not admitting to fault, but rather than it is private information that is neither appropriate or relevant to share with a wide audience. I think you might find that INFJs are willing to share personal slices of their life when they are more emotionally distanced from them or if they can see a specific purpose in doing so. Your approach here is unlikely to elicit interest in opening up, as it appears that you are personally trying to visit the sins of your INFJ on complete strangers. It's like comparing apples to oranges.
 
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To the bolded, I'd be equally interested in seeing the evidence and proof that the other 15 types do all show remorse in a way that apparently infj's do not. I mean, it seems reasonable, given that you're asking infj's to disprove your assertion that infj's don't show remorse.

i wouldn't call 'reasonable' because that's 14 types that i'm not one of, meaning their incidents of remorse aren't my own personal mistakes to be open about. for me it's as easy enough, a few month back in my email, but here's a letter of apology i wrote to my exwife (warning: extensively long and personal, and unrelated to the topic).

 

miss fortune

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yea that's totally the same, except nobody is asking them to show remorse for what someone else did, i'm asking them to give examples of remorse for something they did.

and in taking the metaphor from a different direction: finding a white guy who isn't a rapist or a black guy who didn't hit anyone's parked car are extremely easy. it should likewise be easy to find an INFJ who has experienced and expressed remorse for various actions that they themselves did and felt bad about - like any normal human being - should be extremely easy.

how about my middle example... I noticed that you left that one out... is it because it's incredibly hard to find an alcoholic who ISN'T a liar when they're in drinking mode? :huh:

and does this mean that I have to apologize to everyone?

they are not the same person so what's the use of clumping them together into the same category? mbti type isn't a be all, end all... you can't say that just because someone is of a certain type according to a test that they took that they have much in common with anyone else who tests the same at all... life circumstances and upbringing and things of that sort have a MUCH greater play into what sort of person someone is :shrug:
 

cascadeco

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i wouldn't call 'reasonable' because that's 14 types that i'm not one of, meaning their incidents of remorse aren't my own personal mistakes to be open about. for me it's as easy enough, a few month back in my email, but here's a letter of apology i wrote to my exwife (warning: extensively long and personal, and unrelated to the topic).

Well, it seemed reasonable to me, since you had said more than once that INFJ's were the only type you've never experienced remorse from. Therefore, I thought since this was the basis for you honing in on INFJ's and their lack of remorse (contrasting with all other types you've experienced), that it would be helpful for you to explain how all other types differ from the infj. Because, I am wondering if it is tied to how it is expressed or processed.

At the same time, I knew that my request was ridiculous and insurmountable; but, to be honest your request of 'us infj's' seems just as ridiculous from my perspective.

Mane said:
i dont know if it can be stated about all NFs, i've seen xNFPs and suspected ENFJs do all of those... as for all NTs, SPs and SJs. INFJs are the only type who i have never witnessed any sign of experiencing remorse.

I can tell you right off the bat that I found your utter dismassal of [MENTION=14857]fia[/MENTION]'s expression pretty, well, telling. You can wrap up your rationale behind that in all of the 'rationale' and 'logic' that you like, but the fact remains that you do not acknowledge her words on the matter as relevant, or 'true'. Do you think that she or others will be likely to try to express their true thoughts to you in the future, given how you responded to that true thought?

But to be honest this goes beyond just this thread; I am not going to bare my soul to anonymous lurkers of the net in this thread, about my true feelings and expressions of sadness and regret. Most especially when what I post would be held under a microscope, and when I feel that it makes no difference whether I post examples of apologies, as there will be those who don't view my examples as such, and those that do. I can't possibly hope to 'prove' anything from it. Just as other people who post examples of their remorse may not seem very remorseful to ME, but they may seem it to 95% of everyone else.

So I'm pretty content allowing everyone to have whatever impression or beliefs they have about me - most especially in the context of the internet.

However, I commend you for sharing so openly your letter of apology; your vulnerability and sadness and hurt and desire for understanding and re-connection at that time is evident. It sounds like a sad story indeed. I'm also sorry you went through a period of blaming yourself for everything. That...sucks. It's never just one person, it's always the combination of two people that make or break a relationship. One person can try, and try, and try, but it isn't going to do a bit of good if the other person doesn't put in just as much effort out of love and caring. It's always the combination of people...actions, reactions, assumptions, misunderstandings, all building upon one another, such that over time things can erode. I don't think any combination of people is immune to this. It takes a lot of openness and trust. :hug:
 
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If you're looking for INFJs to outline their specific personal shortcomings with people they have been close to, I don't think you're going to get that unless you are in their most trusted inner circle. It's not a matter of not admitting to fault, but rather than it is private information that is neither appropriate or relevant to share with a wide audience. I think you might find that INFJs are willing to share personal slices of their life when they are more emotionally distanced from them or if they can see a specific purpose in doing so. Your approach here is unlikely to elicit interest in opening up, as it appears that you are personally trying to visit the sins of your INFJ on complete strangers. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

which would make sense, except i've being in a couple of those circles for years and find it remarkable in retrospect that i've never seen that, and then i came here and met other people who've being in the various circles of INFJs from their own lives and have never seen that, and now i see a thread full of INFPs speaking about being in those inner circles and never seen that... and i've never known anyone who has. can you see where i am coming from? wouldn't you find it the slightest bit remarkable? the specific actions of each are unique for each case, but the lack of remorse is persistent.

and if fia or anyone else was to follow her intentions and points out examples where they - as she stated she has - have experienced and acted out of experiencing remorse, in this thread or anywhere, it would have being a huge boulder off my shoulders, but instead she pointed out an example where she acted out against a notion of remorse.

all i want is one example.

people have asked for that in return, and i don't think its reasonable to expect that i should betray the privacy of friends and family and people i've known from various types, but my own privacy is my own to betray. and you know what it took me to find an ENTP's expression of remorse? writing "sorry" in my gmail's search box.

was posting it easy? ofcourse not, but if i can get one, just one example of an INFJ showing remorse, it would be wroth while.

for me? it might not redeem my wife, but it would be a huge step towards trying to forgive her internally, and at the very least, i would be able to trust some people (whose company i enjoy very much) further then i can throw them. that alone would be worth the former gut-spilling.
 

PeaceBaby

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@ INFJ's in thread:
[MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION] needs Si data points for processing purposes.

That's why he's asking for them and what he's asking for, despite their irrelevance in your eyes.

He needs to hear your story.

Then, each experience that gets shared has the potential to help him come to terms with the context of his own issues. And can help him move on.

Provide a kind of clarity, as it were.

With Si as the inferior function, he needs a lot of them to come up with fairly reliable conclusions to generate order from the chaos of his individual experience.
 

cascadeco

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all i want is one example.

Yesterday I responded to a note someone sent me. I responded in two sentences, saying I may be off the radar for a little while, but didn't give explanation.

15 minutes later, after getting a very quick 'see ya' response back, I realized how I may have come across. I may have totally misread it and this person may have been totally a-ok with what I'd written, but I wasn't sure, and I also felt bad. So I then apologized for being brusque, wrote a bit more, and I think we reached understanding.

There ya go. :smile:
 
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Yesterday I responded to a note someone sent me. I responded in two sentences, saying I may be off the radar for a little while, but didn't give explanation.

15 minutes later, after getting a very quick 'see ya' response back, I realized how I may have come across. I may have totally misread it and this person may have been totally a-ok with what I'd written, but I wasn't sure, and I also felt bad. So I then apologized for being brusque, wrote a bit more, and I think we reached understanding.

There ya go. :smile:


:happy0065:

thank you.
 

Vasilisa

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[MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION] :)

Once in ventrilo we were reading from The Book of Questions and [MENTION=7760]LEGERdeMAIN[/MENTION] offered up a response that I thought was completely for humor/shock value and I chided him out loud and asked him not to troll us. He was offended by that accusation and I realized it was totally wrong of me to presume that he was being unserious or without sincere sentiment. I felt remorse for scolding him like that and I recognized it as one of the ways I can be an annoying INFJ with directive approach and know-it-all notions. Expressing the true remorse I felt, I described how I was wrong and apologized to him and to those in vent who were present.
 
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[MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION] :)

Once in ventrilo we were reading from The Book of Questions and [MENTION=7760]LEGERdeMAIN[/MENTION] offered up a response that I thought was completely for humor/shock value and I chided him out loud and asked him not to troll us. He was offended by that accusation and I realized it was totally wrong of me to presume that he was being unserious or without sincere sentiment. I felt remorse for scolding him like that and I recognized it as one of the ways I can be an annoying INFJ with directive approach and know-it-all notions. Expressing the true remorse I felt, I described how I was wrong and apologized to him and to those in vent who were present.

:cheers:
 

PeaceBaby

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I am thinking more and more about Ni vs Si in these threads too. This thread has been on my mind a lot over the last few days.

There's a reason a whack of INFP's in one place share a whole bunch of individual stories. Not because we think we are special snowflakes, but because they help us gain a better understanding of ourselves and the stories of our own lives. Those stories form a web from which we can extrapolate patterns and try to reasonably predict the future. Additionally, in the sharing of those stories, we can fact-check our own conclusions and adjust them as necessary. Additionally, since we don't meet many Fi doms in the course of our existence, we can feel the resonance that only comes from Fi truthiness experiences shared out loud.

So, INFP's already see OA's post as one story, not any kind of global conclusion over the INFJ type, and when she shares we will share our own experiences in return. A collective of "what feels right" thus starts to weave into that web mentioned above, and we all feel it out as it gets built to see what feels more true and more false. We already know that some people may stretch their truth. But stories shared out loud will ring other Fi dom's truth-o-meters too and this is another form of fact-checking we can do. And the more data that accumulates ensures that one person's story doesn't get as much opportunity to overly influence the final result. A final result may never even materialize as the web increases in scope and complexity. It only gets refined.

All that's needed to throw it all off though is someone coming in and saying, "Your experience is invalid" or "Your feelings are irrelevant". Because truth is by degrees, subjectivity is by degrees and we all instinctively know this, and feelings matter - no matter what the facts may be. The black and white of right vs wrong risks sending the whole process of our creation awry. Our feelings can never process to their resolution either because they get trapped and stunted in the course of their life cycle. It's why, in these kinds of threads, when someone asks us for what we see but discounts it as inaccurate, we push against that so hard or simply shut down. We already don't think we are right, we already assume subjectivity. We just think we matter too. That our data matters as much as anyone else's experience.
 

PeaceBaby

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This thread is like a photo album to me. You sit down with a friend one afternoon who's never met your family. You leaf through the pages, and she says, "Oh, is that your Mom? You can see the family resemblance!" But you feel annoyed when she says that, because you don't look like your Mom, you don't want to look like her either and somehow, agreeing that you look like your Mom might mean that you possess all of the undesirable qualities of your Mom too.

Does agreeing with any of OA's list feel like saying, "Yes, I look like my Mom" here?? Because if you agree you do look a little alike, does it feel like you're somehow agreeing with the whole package? And you can't align with a package that doesn't represent how you, as a person, are so much more than someone else's interpretation of a family resemblance? After all, you aren't your Mom.

As an INFP, I do roll my eyes at how people interpret my type, but I see little grains of truth in it, even in people I consider type outliers, and even if I don't like it. I have to admit to it now because I have stored up too much Si data that backs up the assertion.

I think us INFP's kind of think the INFJ's will sift through the memory banks to find that data too, but we don't realize or remember that Ni doms don't build a web like we do with Si, you look at the model of the web and try to maintain the purity of that with Ni or create a new paradigm that fits the information you have at your disposal. "Screw making a web - there's probably a better model anyway!" says Ni!

Does that (or the previous post) resonate with anyone? Thoughts very welcome in this attempted verbalization of my feelings on the matter.

Those are my best ideas on this over the last little bit; hope they are illuminating somehow to the whole discussion and explain how these threads somehow get off track.

:)
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I'm out of this discussion, but wanted to leave on a positive note to tell [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] how much I respect your innate desire for diplomacy and unique, important insights. [MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION] and [MENTION=1206]cascadeco[/MENTION], and others here, I admire because they always go way above and beyond the call of duty to understand how other people think and communicate and try to help wherever they can. I have seen both of you be patient in ways that blow my mind on several occasions. If there is something like karma in this world I hope it results in people doing the same for you. You never expect from others what they expect from you, and you have that deep compassion combined with reason. Those I mentioned here and a few others are a rare few that I could trust as friends. I realize this is off-topic a bit, but I just thought it was important to state publicly after everything.

Edit: [MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION] It would be interesting to hear your perspective on this latest topic in this thread if you happen to have interest and time to kill. I'll try to summarize- Mane has stated that the issue he and others in this thread have against INFJs is that they do not think the type expresses remorse. He is an ENTP with an INFJ ex who didn't express remorse and considers that he needs to have the INFJs here express remorse to demonstrate that it is possible for the type. Many have both before and after his request. You can see the exchanges which are pretty extensive. I know your wife is an INFJ and thought you would have interesting input.
 

cascadeco

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Does agreeing with any of OA's list feel like saying, "Yes, I look like my Mom" here?? Because if you agree you do look a little alike, does it feel like you're somehow agreeing with the whole package? And you can't align with a package that doesn't represent how you, as a person, are so much more than someone else's interpretation of a family resemblance? After all, you aren't your Mom.

For myself, I can't 'agree' with the list because I look at every item in the list and like I said in an earlier post, I can think of one item that applies to one INFJ I know, another couple that apply to another, but some/many items wouldn't even enter these infjs' element of being. I look at the same list and this item here -

3. They will not take personal responsibility* for any problem in their life ... they are always blaming something outside themselves.

- rings out loud and clear as being something that I see very much in an INFP I know, as well as countless people of various types, so much so that I can't be around these people, listening to the incessant repeats of the same complaints and woes for years and years without them changing a thing about their situation.

So when I see lists like these, I always feel they're more a product of Individuals and their own issues/hangups - not a Type as a whole. It's also why I wouldn't create a list for INFP's, based on the two or three that I know, because while there are commonalities, the hangups differ and one is quite different from another.

So for me, lists end up being rather unuseful, because in the end, even if certain trends may exist, I can't ever apply a Trend to an Individual, because individuals differ in striking ways outside of the borders of mbti. But I also know that there's a large chunk of people who find great use and utility in looking at things in the List/story way, and compiling trends, and those trends maybe being useful to apply to a Type in general. It is just unuseful for me - but maybe it's unfair of me to think it's unuseful for others or shouldn't be applied by others.

I think any pushback or not 'agreeing' on a List has more to do with not understanding how some of the items are universally applicable to infj's, esp. in the context of the same things being able to be demonstrated by numerous other types.

I think us INFP's kind of think the INFJ's will sift through the memory banks to find that data too, but we don't realize or remember that Ni doms don't build a web like we do with Si, you look at the model of the web and try to maintain the purity of that with Ni or create a new paradigm that fits the information you have at your disposal. "Screw making a web - there's probably a better model anyway!" says Ni!

The thing is, is I have a pretty abysmal memory recall, so I really don't know that I have 'data' in the sense that you do. So that makes me a) a poor story-teller, and b) a poor recaller/reteller of past events. [and had I not actually had a situation happen to me yesterday that fit Mane's inquiry, I honestly don't think I could have come up with an example, because I just don't remember the specifics of much of anything.... I know that I DO apologize and etc, in many cases, but I wouldn't be able to come up with a concrete example unless it happened really really recently.] I think I tend to take the 'gist' of everything in my past, and also project/predict likely unfoldings based on what is NOW before me. It's a shifting template, if you will. Or it's a multitude of interconnected templates.... mbti is WAY too simplistic for me, in most cases.
 
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