[NF] INFPs, what do INFJs do that drives you nuts?

[cascadeco]

Possibly. However my criticism was not of your reasons for doing so, they are no doubt very different from my own and perhaps very well reasoned. My criticism was on the action itself and that basically there's nothing wrong with a bit of disruption to social harmony and the ethics of the group from time to time.

Yes, I agree. I tend to disrupt social harmony while at work, by not jumping on the work bandwagon or towing the company line all of the time.

Mostly, though... for me personally I have no beef with 'INFPs' or any type as a whole, I have beef with individuals within each type. I can't really disrupt any 'harmony' in this thread. Plus, I think harmony's not really present, anyway, so there's nothing to disrupt that isn't already kinda absent.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Possibly. However my criticism was not of your reasons for doing so, they are no doubt very different from my own and perhaps very well reasoned. My criticism was on the action itself and that basically there's nothing wrong with a bit of disruption to social harmony and the ethics of the group from time to time.

You realize though that you feel this way because of your wiring, eh? There's nothing inherently wrong with valuing social harmony, and myself, as an Fi-dom so-dom, experience this weird dichotomy all of the time.

 

[Standuble]

You realize though that you feel this way because of your wiring, eh? There's nothing inherently wrong with valuing social harmony, and myself, as an Fi-dom so-dom, experience this weird dichotomy all of the time.

Yes absolutely. That's why I included it under "my views" section at the bottom. It's an opinion and opinions are like assholes. Another one is that there is nothing inherently wrong with anything, thus nothing wrong with screwing social harmony. Anyhoo I am going to bed.

 

[Fidelia]

You're right, PB about the treating emotions carefully instead of ideas and I'd wager that part of the issue that OA mentioned (about INFJs not seeming to care that they have hurt other people) has to do with that same issue. For example, I feel confused and bewildered when someone treats something totally changeable and separate from my identity (my current emotion) as important, while ignoring the thing that I do count as mattering much more and having way more to do with me as a person.

It wasn't until coming here that I even realized that other people don't all see their emotions in the same way as I do. I still find it difficult to know how to focus on and honour that part of things (particularly if there is not particular outcome that the person is stating they want so that they can feel better) and not feel that if we just come to agreement of terms, that will help to smooth things over and deal with the real issue! I think it is also why I resent the repeated accusation of Fe users just kissing a** or blowing smoke when I don't believe that they are doing that. I see their response as a reasonable way of trying to meet other people where they are at so that together we can reach an outcome that makes us both happy. When others don't use that method, it seems strange to me because often the reasons for them choosing their approach are not verbalized (introverted function). Only through discussion of Ni/Ti have I realized that I underverbalize what I falsely assume seems clearly there (so it would be obnoxious and condescending to say) or that I don't share a structure in my thinking because it is so ingrained that I've forgotten others don't share it. I feel like that has helped to start seeing why Fi users also don't tend to verbalize their reasoning, but I still feel like I'm kind of in no man's land, feeling my way in front of me. I've realized too that the outcome is the reason that I tend to overaccommodate (sometimes even in ways that other people don't want me to) if I can't foresee a negative exchange having any ultimate value in improving the situation.

 

[Eilonwy]

I'm curious and want to try an experiment. I'm not trying to be a smartass by doing this; I'm genuinely curious as to how INFPs would read the following:

There is a greater chance that the Middle East conflict will be solved than there is that INFJs and INFPs will come to an agreement. Nothing will ever change until the INFPs lose their condescending, dismissive attitude toward INFJs. It's doubtful that will ever happen. IF more INFPs acted the way Peacebaby acts, of course, it would be different. But you've got to look at the way things usually are, not to the exception to the rule. If the human race had only consisted of INFJs and INFPs, mankind would have destroyed itself long ago. Cooperation which is necessary for progress would have been impossible. In my own life, I now know (from finding out the hard way) that trying to get anything done that's meaningful with an INFP is a waste of time. The best I can do is hold no bitterness or ill will and try to be at peace. So, in case it isn't clear, I do believe it's impossible for INFJs and INFPs to understand each other no matter how hard they try. Once again, there will be some exceptions, but I'm just talking about as a general rule.

All I did was take sorenx7's post and switch P and J, and put Peacebaby in for Silkroad (sorry to pick on you PB ). How does it come across to INFPs? Is this an example of how Te from us would look to you? In other words, is this how we should try to speak to you when we have an issue?

*ETA: Here's one of my flaws...it takes me time to review what I've said/posted in my head and see it from other perspectives. With that in mind, I want to say that I was not trying to pick on sorenx7. The word "blunt" has been used a lot and I was wondering if the above was an example of that (Te bluntness) and if, perhaps, I was taking it in a way it wasn't intended.

 

[PeaceBaby]

[MENTION=8244]Eilonwy[/MENTION] - it would read as harsh and would hurt me to read that, although as the token "reasonable" INFP I would be at least glad I was coming across as trying to meet in the middle.

It's too polarized to be particularly helpful. Although a part of me would appreciate the brutal honesty aspect, the willingness for someone to state their true opinion to that degree.

 

[Eilonwy]

We treat your emotions carefully, but not your ideas. And vice-versa. See, above I'm more concerned that fia is feeling annoyed by this thread than I am about the veracity of the ideas put forth so far. I already know that their will be outlier opinions on either end of the scale, some who really love INFJ's and othrs who dislike, so I already weight those as to where they're coming from. So we add disclaimers sometimes, that we think you're great etc etc before rendering value assessments out loud. You ask us questions about our ideas and we feel like you're probing them as though you think they're incorrect and you thus come across as defensive. Just like we can too when trying to explain our emotional expressions.

Can you elaborate on this? I'm not understanding it. Are you saying that we don't have to be careful of what you might feel, but we need to be careful of what you might think? Or are thinking? I'm not sure how to separate the two out.

 

[PeaceBaby]

[MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION]: If I may presume to speak for INFP's, I think most of us would say we look at all the viewpoints in the thread and look for the patterns. The patterns to us speak to the way ahead, but we'll make an action path for ourselves after seeing the aggregate of response. We aren't looking to be probed on it because each person's response will ring our Fi truth-o-meter. We'll feel the ring of rightness / wrongness from each poster and consider that some posts feel bitter, some feel aggrandizing, and we'll take all those little essences we glean from each post into account for credibility's sake.

INFJ's look at the thread offerings, I think, wonder what the goal of the person sharing them is, and realize that there's little you can take away in terms of action points. And then I'm sure to your eyes, a whole bunch of negative ideas thrown out there seems to have the purpose of trying to denigrate. It might even seem like there's a kind of ganging-up taking place, and that will bring a bunch of INFJ's in too to try to do more probing for balance. Which to INFP eyes, just looks defensive and full of denial.

So we both are looking for very different things in these threads I think. I want as much data as possible to fill out my Si mappings. You want action items so you can improve future interactions and understand why things go awry. Does that seem about right?

My goal right now is to try to clarify based on these many interactions in the past and use that knowledge I've gained to a positive purpose. I already take most of what's in here with a grain of salt.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Can you elaborate on this? I'm not understanding it. Are you saying that we don't have to be careful of what you might feel, but we need to be careful of what you might think? Or are thinking? I'm not sure how to separate the two out.

I'm saying that an INFP values their feelings being respected, and ideas - you can bat them around as much as you want. We attach our identity to our emotions and values, not to ideas and concepts.

SO, if I say I am sad, an INFP would just want sympathy for the sadness, and in receiving that care, it allows us to experience the feelings and then process them, move forward from them. We want the feelings to be honored for what they are. We don't want to be told that how we feel is irrelevant, and we don't want to feel like no one cares about how we feel.

Does that help? Any other INFP's chime in on this.

 

[Eilonwy]

[MENTION=8244]Eilonwy[/MENTION] - it would read as harsh and would hurt me to read that, although as the token "reasonable" INFP I would be at least glad I was coming across as trying to meet in the middle.

It's too polarized to be particularly helpful. Although a part of me would appreciate the brutal honesty aspect, the willingness for someone to state their true opinion to that degree.

See, and this is confusing to me, too, because that is how I would read the original post.

I've found there have been times when something said on the forum has provoked a reaction in me that has nothing to do with the person who said it, but everything to do with an issue I have in real life. My initial reaction has been to dislike, or get angry with, the forum person who said it, but if I step back and think, I realize that I'm projecting. There's the possibility that the forum person will be someone who I won't get along with, but I can't just assume that outright. In fact, the specific example that I'm thinking of was something said by someone I like very much, though I haven't interacted with them on the forum at all.

Sometimes I've been guilty of typism, too. But then I step back and realize that it's more about individuals than whole types. I still end up back at we're all human and we all have faults. Some faults are deal-breakers and some aren't.

 

[OrangeAppled]

After a number of threads like this, I realize that Fi-ers generally are kind of brutally honest with each other (presenting it in various terms depending on the hearer feels inauthentic, maybe?) and it sounds loving to the Fi receiver so no offense is taken. However, anyone who has been around here this long has to be aware that Fe users will not receive it in the same way. To me, it only makes sense to adjust the mode of communication to achieve the intended goal if you know that not doing so may prevent the person from receiving an important piece of information. That doesn't mean changing the message, but it does mean putting some thought into how the person will likely respond most openly to what you have to say.

I might agree, except there's been too many threads about Fi for Fi-ers where some Fe-er comes in & tells us that we need to be more Fe, even though we were communicating with each other just fine. This suggestion from you always sounds like "fe style is always the way". But I don't find that style effective, despite how much Fe types try & say it will be. Instead it ends up in a circle-jerk that leaves me bored. Another poster mentioned how INFJ forums look like a bunch of people blowing smoke up each other's butts - yeah, I'd agree. Although instead of being annoyed, I'm just bored & frustrated with all the red tape. It never goes anywhere.

Since this thread is asking for INFP opinions specifically, I didn't & don't see a problem with giving an actual INFP perspective.

To Fe ears, anything said means there are about 10 things left implied that are far worse for each point. Therefore, coming from someone with whom there is insufficient relationship to supply context, and who is admittedly approaching from an antagonistic rather than constructive perspective, it is unwelcome.

I think you're zeroing in on one comment I made & blowing it out of proportion. I didn't say my motive was merely to provoke. "Antagonistic" is certainly not what I meant. In addition to giving my opinion, I was hoping to get thoughtful responses instead of a brush-off, and I got much more thoughtful ones than most other posts, so it worked. That's precisely why I quoted Jung & Van Der Hoop - to avoid the "that's just some INFJs you know" brush-off or "they probably aren't even INFJs" brush-off.

Does it mean that INFJs are unwilling or unable to cop to any flaws? I don't think so. With the particular post in question, it feels as if the writer expects all INFJs to patently agree with all observations or else they are just as blind and selfish as the real life INFJs that said person already likes but doesn't admire (I find it hard to like people I don't admire, so I think maybe I assume automatically that others work the same way).

No, I've explained what I'm looking for. It seems it's easier to harp on my motive than address the points for some people. I appreciate that you addressed the points before; that's all I was seeking beyond simply giving my opinion. It's not necessary to say "I'm a bad person", and I think my responses to the responses has shown that.

And to me, likability is about enjoyability. Admiration is looking up to someone. I can dislike someone & admire them, and I can enjoy them & not look up to them. So yes, we differ there.

OA has requested some thought and perspective on why the INFJs act as they do and what they recognize as familiar in her list. If perspective for why certain behaviour is offered though, it seems that she is saying INFJs are attempting to "sidestep" and avoid taking responsibility. It feels like we're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

It's side-stepping when the points aren't addressed at all or are completely twisted so as to excuse any possible personality flaw. Again, I quoted sources for the theory, because you must relate to Ni to identify as a Ni-dom, and these are points which describe negative aspects of Ni. This is how I've seen them played out in person, from an outside perspective. I wonder how INFJs identify these in themselves, if at all.

I think the issue I take is delivery and intent, which seems to be less of an issue to Fi users than expression and personal truth. I'm open to discussion with someone who either truly wants to understand what makes our behaviour make sense to us (and allows them to see it in a more charitable or comprehensible light while making us aware of the repercussions it has) or someone who truly wants to help and feels we are missing something important that will improve communication between us and other types. Either is fine. But you can't deliver in an offensive way, offer someone no valid way to respond and then finish with an "AHA! So you see, you simply are a bad person, as are all other of your ilk and you won't change my mind on that!". I just have no patience for it.

I stated this was part of my intention, but you don't seem to want to accept it. I think you're exaggerating my manner as much more villainous than it is/was. There have been valid responses, and I've responded to them & acknowledged them as such. This sort of thing is diverting from those discussions, which I genuinely believe would not have been started if I had taken the fluffier manner you suggest. Then it would have been a circle jerk of, "oh, yeah, sometimes I'm rigid, but it works for me! hehe!".
[MENTION=6275]the state i am in[/MENTION] - I intend to respond....

Bringing up the issue of how INFJs are generally perceived on the internet as opposed to the context right here (especially without stating that fact) just seems like it is someone who got burned on INFJs looking for a dumping ground. It takes away their credibility.

I'm comparing an idea of a type with a reality I've experienced. I think it's a fair way to approach it, because types are just abstractions as [MENTION=1206]cascadeco[/MENTION] says, but this thread is asking what in actuality annoys INFPs. Well, some of what annoys me IS the difference between the perception & the reality. That perception does exist here, because this is the internet. I also wanted to note the connection between the reality & the actual theory, as opposed to the perception. However, that post was also made in a different context, and I mainly quoted it because I'm too lazy to type the same ideas again in a different manner.

Again, there is a focus on "credibility" of the speaker instead of the actual argument. To me, this sounds like, "I don't like YOU, so I'm not going to listen to you" regardless of whether I'm actually making any valid points. To me, this is childish. It goes back to the "la la la la - I can't hear you!" hand-over-ears reaction.

Finally, admitting to being curious as to how the INFJs will react because one is naturally inclined towards stirring the pot seems less mature even than the ENTP pastime of trying different things that they know will be irritating to NFPs just to see how they will react.

You're taking what I said out of context & in the wrong way, but I addressed that above. I take the route which has the most potential for response, not with the idea to cause trouble; major difference. The cheekiness is just my sense of humor, but that was lost on INFJs (as it often is online... yes another complaint). I think I'm adding levity to the situation.... but I will try & note that this leads to offense in INFJs online. I say "online" because this is one thing I've had no issue with in person; perhaps tone is lost online.

As I'm writing this though, I'm realizing that most of my beefs have to to with the ultimate goal of interaction. If I can't figure out what the other person's intended outcome of a negative exchange is, it frustrates me no end because there is no way to bridge the gap, measure whether the it can be achieved or engage productively. It feels like being forced to walk somewhere unfamiliar with a blind fold on and then have other people upset that you bump into things.

I straight out told you my goals.

If real dialogue is to occur, I think that asking questions about our reasoning and thoughts (which probably seems uncomfortably intrusive and not all that personally useful), rather than making statements about an entire type of people (who are not all exactly the same) to engender discussion would be a better place to start.

This thread was asking INFP opinions. It wasn't a "ask INFJs questions to better understand them" thread. In posting my opinion, yes, I wanted some responses as to how people view these ideas about Ni and how my outside observation jives with their perspective of themselves. I'm also asking for honest self-scrutiny, instead of defensiveness.

 

[Eilonwy]

I'm saying that an INFP values their feelings being respected, and ideas - you can bat them around as much as you want. We attach our identity to our emotions and values, not to ideas and concepts.

SO, if I say I am sad, an INFP would just want sympathy for the sadness, and in receiving that care, it allows us to experience the feelings and then process them, move forward from them. We want the feelings to be honored for what they are. We don't want to be told that how we feel is irrelevant, and we don't want to feel like no one cares about how we feel.

Does that help? Any other INFP's chime in on this.

Oops, I got that completely backwards, then.

So, if I asked you why you're sad, would that feel like probing and like I'm doubting your sadness?


*ETA: I realize I'm derailing the thread, so this will be my last post that's not related to the OP.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Not sure. I would have to search. Generally though in these threads, Fi folks feel like they're WHACKING their heads against the wall trying to be understood by the Fe folks. We say how we FEEL, and how we feel is the most risky thing for us to share, because we protect that just as you protect your ideas. Usually, one or more of the Fi folks say something "dumb" that sets off one of the Fe folks alarm bells, and we hear the bell but don't know why and no one explicitly says why, and get collectively taken to task for it. This brings us to need to try to employ Te to be understood, since you aren't reading our Fi accurately, which then is often unfortunately misread as Fe, and then more problems ensue. Entertaining actually.

Very few people feel understood and it is possible to assert that no human being is understood. If I brought myself to a point of desiring to be understood, I'd whack my head against a wall plenty. Why do you assume that only Fi-doms feel this way? Why would an INFP assume to know how others feel about being understood? One could easily make the argument that Fe has a much stronger need to be understood, so when it isn't, there is much more potential motivation for head-banging and such. Understanding must be demonstrated not declared.

Honestly, I'll share a truth here - it's way easier for Fi to appreciate Fe than the other way around. Why? Because Fe has the advantage of believing itself correct by nature of the function orientation. Your Fe has you standing there thinking that what you just said is RIGHT, or you wouldn't have said it. Just like Te - Te acts exactly the same way. Both are "out loud" functions.

Fi is way more explorative and tentative, as is Ti. We don't have the default position of RIGHTNESS, because we see lots of alternate options, and we play probabilities as opposed to black & whites of right vs wrong. Your Ni + Fe leads you to believe that your distillation of the issue is especially insightful and true because of the "aha" nature of Ni.

Do you think that your position is correct? Are INFP correct about all their complaints about INFJs? Is Fi not understood by Fe people? Are you correct and certain or could you be mistaken about parts of this? Fe is much more relative and context oriented than Fi. Fe has a great deal of uncertainty because of the continually changing context of communication and meaning. This can be experienced as overwhelming anxiety in the face of the massive complexity of people and systems of people which are ever changing. The outside world is dynamic, changing, uncertain, and so any preference that has its focus there will parallel these processes. This is currently not understood. Fe has a strong tendency to internalize negative or positive energy from its environment and Fi has a tendency to project their inner world and feelings onto the outside world. When these criticisms get comprehensive and questionable, then it is worth examining the possibility of projection and assumptions distorted by their inner world?

Also why does it play out exactly the opposite in these threads? It is almost always the Fe people tentatively trying to understand their "thick elephant skin" and how their feelings are shadows, etc. I have been impressed with how nice many of them have been when confronted with some condescending comments. I'm the only one here pushing back, and I have less Fe than most here. I'm breaking the rules terribly, but just this one time so far I'm trying it to see what happens.

I have several opinions about this thread and every topic I encounter. Ni sees the world from multiple perspectives at once and attempt to organize this into its core concepts. I don't dislike even the INFPs who have said the most condescending comments because they are the product of their genetics and environment as we all are. Our faults or strength are what they are, and one hypothesis I have is that when it comes down to it we are nothing more than observers of processes for whom choice is only an illusion. We may also be the core of our reality in which our choices can shape ourselves and the world around us. I consider many more possibilities. Do INFJs in general do this? From what I understand they do at least to some degree.

In these threads there is an inconsistency to point out and a concepts to mirror back. I do the same with ENTJs or with more force because that is how they are communicating. I try to match communication styles.

With regard to this thread however, let's note that the op is asking for opinions from INFP's.

That gives it a different context. I realize I am bringing in a much broader context than just this thread. It is an ongoing issue that has been expressed in much more derogatory terms than here. This may have been the wrong thread to bring it up, but I've just read and listened many times in the past, and I didn't see the OP, and happened to choose this instance to respond.

SO - when an INFP hears this, we expect that you are asking for an UNVARNISHED TRUTH and we deliver it in a Te way. Blunt to the ears perhaps, but you'll generally find it offensive because you're hearing it laced with all kind of judgement from an Fe perspective when NONE is intended. It's the Te angle that tends to rile. And Te is our inferior function. When we use it, it's going to have some "taint" if you will from the functions that precede it. There will be history from Si, Ne will color it with all of the tangential spin-off issues, and Fi will signal our sadness or irritation or disappointment about these previous communication failures.

How do you feel about receiving unvarnished truth? I see a lot of push back against it because that is all I'm trying to do as well.

You asked. We'll tell. Fi-style though, because well, that's what we hear you asking for. It doesn't mean we don't admire a MYRIAD of other things about you all. Which we express with 10x more frequency than is reciprocated. In ordinary circumstance, we feel like we're the ones reaching out to you, trying to match your communication style, not the other way around generally. Ask for truth though, and you'll get it from our functional perspective. Fi-style.

That might be true for you, but I haven't seen that as the case on the forums any more for INFP than for INFJ.

Please tell me fia, how are things with you? And why does this thread bother you? Why do you feel a need to pull us INFP's down a peg because of it? To us, we are giving you what you asked for. If you ask us if the dress makes you look fat, well, we figure you want us to HONOR you with truth. We usually don't say because we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. But if you ask, we will RISK telling you our subjective truth on the matter. Anything less would be insulting to you.

I'm not trying to pull you down a peg. What I am saying is not the offensive position, but the defensive one. By mirroring back what is being expressed you now understand what it is that was originally communicated here. You know experientially what has been communicated. I really like hearing INFP perspective when they aren't judgmental, but instead analytical. I find it one of the most important perspectives.

Us INFP's have flaws galore that we've admitted to with alarming frequency here on the forum and other people are happy to poke at them too. You know that we're not exempt by any stretch and have been attacked too for risking to tell our truths here.

Realize that many truths expressed here and elsewhere are judgments and criticisms of other people. Who could express such a thing without push back?

What reaction are you expecting or desiring? What would be the best reaction to a similar thread in which INFJs made criticisms of INFPs? Answers to that question could be one of the most helpful things to communicate.

 

[PeaceBaby]

See, and this is confusing to me, too, because that is how I would read the original post.

It's been said we (INFJ's & INFP's) often come to the same conclusions, we just arrive at them from a very different process. And we expect each other to understand the process because we share the same insightful conclusion, but when we do try to explain it to each other here, we're all like "whaaaaat are you all talking about?"



I think this is why sometimes IRL it's not an issue. It's online that we can't say it right somehow.

I still end up back at we're all human and we all have faults. Some faults are deal-breakers and some aren't.

I agree.

 

[_eric_]

I'll try to give a little personal anecdote about these two trait lists. I'll put how I am in bold. I apologize if I don't have much to say about any particular one, but I'll at least say if it applies to me or not.

Oh, I found THIS post

These are problems I have experienced in INFJs I know in person. I'm not saying this is what all INFJs are like or that these points even sum up these individuals (who DO have good qualities), but I see these as "common issues" in INFJs.

Anyone want to cop to some of these (even if to lesser degree), explain how you get over these negative tendencies, etc?

I've included some points from a Ni description which seem to explain the "root" of some of these issues.

1. General paranoia. Example: everyone is out to get them for no good reason. All of their problems are due to these people who are out to get them, and there is absolutely nothing they have done to spur these people, of course. In reality, these people may not like them, but they are ignoring the INFJ, not out to get them; OR the INFJ has given them a reason to react that way.

"Have little awareness of the facts of the external world... the world of facts are far removed for them, and they try to confine their contact with these things to the aspects which they can regulate as they like. Everything else appears to them as suspicious, as something they must defend themselves against."

"The influence of reason is inconsistent & self-centered....and the knowledge behind their thoughts is often incomplete.....they may force a line of reasoning that ends up being unclear and contradictory."

I'm not even remotely paranoid. I don't blame my problems or the things I've been through on anyone; there may be some things where others play a part but it's almost never entirely their fault. I am very much concerned with knowing the facts about anything I say or talk about, as much as I am able, and I try not to make any solid statements about something I'm not very knowledgeable about, while admitting that I am nowhere near being an expert on the subject (like economics). I express myself clearly and try to maintain a high degree of internal and external consistency.

2. Selfishness & in denial about it. Playing tyrant/victim, whichever suits them to get their way. They pat themselves on the back for being so "giving", but they only give in ways that suits them (ie. benefits them also in some way), not according to what people truly need & are even asking for.

" Egotism, and a desire to dominate, may cause them to use these requirements of an ideal relationship to benefit their own agenda."

That's not me at all, I don't like manipulation and I don't give in order to get; it is nice to get back but I don't require it, I just do it because I want to, and they don't even have to say "Thank you." for it to be worthwhile to me.

3. They will not take personal responsibility* for any problem in their life or any negative effect they have on others; they are always blaming something outside themselves.

That's definitely not me. The majority of the time I am well aware of the consequences of my actions, and in any case where I'm not, I'm fine with someone else pointing it out. I don't think I am flawless, and I have no problem with apologizing.

4. General Delusion*. They will see nothing but what they want to see, which is a majorly distorted perspective completely at odds with the reality of the world. See quote for #1.

I always try to see things the way they are, I don't fool myself to make myself feel better or make me look perfect, even if it's only in my own eyes.

5. They are not simply sensitive to criticism; they refuse to acknowledge they have flaws at all or that they have any blame in a situation, period. Yet, they criticize others heavily & have high expectations for them that they could never meet themselves.

"They may make demands on others without being prepared to meet the same demands themselves."

As I mentioned before, I'm open to correction, and will at least consider what someone has to say. Even if I disagree, I will explain why and try to be detailed enough for them to understand me, as opposed to just outright dismissal. If the person still insists I'm wrong about something, I basically say "Let's just agree to disagree here." and not keep circular arguments going.

I do have high standards but honestly, they are considerably higher for myself than others because I know I cannot control how others work, and also they may not have the same strengths as me, so I'm not unrealistic with what I expect from others.

6. They make promises or state intentions they either cannot keep or don't intend to keep, mainly to get others to do what they want. When they are called on these promises, they get mad at people for being "demanding"* & accuse them of not being supportive of them by expecting too much. I see this as a form of manipulation, even if not intentional.

"Seek to regulate everything according to their own ideas...
Apt to be tyrants within their own small circle...
Rather than adapt themselves to others, they will limit their contact with those who do not agree with them..."

I think all of this is downright awful. If I make a promise I do my absolute best to keep it, and in the off chance I can't, I say I'm really sorry and explain why I couldn't do it; that almost never happens though, and the few times it does it's because of something dependent on timing if I might end up having to do something necessary last minute that wasn't planned for.

7. INSANE double standards. For example, only the INFJ is allowed to be hurt; if they hurt you & you communicate this, then they act hurt that you'd dare imply they are even capable of hurting someone (see inability to accept criticism, even if that means they will invalidate others' feelings & trample their needs). Other kinds of double standards they flex include holding other people to standards they themselves fail to meet & likely never will. See quote for #5.

same as my answer for #5. Also, even if I think someone's feelings about something are not logical, I don't invalidate them because I explain how I understand they came to feel that way. Like if I say something that's unintentionally hurtful (mostly this happens in text-only communication though, from lack of intonation and body language and all that), I apologize and explain what I meant in a different way to make sure they aren't hurt by it. I hate hurting others and would do anything to avoid it or correct it when it happens. I know with some things it is inevitable though, like if it's something really personal, but even still, I try to be very tactful and respectful about it. I don't sugar-coat things and I say what needs to be said, but I am careful to not come across as arrogant and presumptuous, and I also try to address any possible misunderstandings before they even have the chance to happen.

I can't speak for other INFJs, but these are a few of the flaws I see most commonly in myself:
1) Tendency to avoid blame or feeling that I am disappointing others. As a result, overpromise and don't deliver and therefore do just what I was hoping to avoid.
nope

2) Grandiose dreams with poor follow through. I think this has something to do with Ni. What you see farther along is like a mirage that keeps disappearing or a dream that you just woke up from and try to recreate. Anything you create seems like a poor replication of the glory it ought to be. And so you put it off or scrap it instead of finishing the project.
This does happen sometimes but mostly for practical reasons like lack of money.

3) Bad with details that are uninteresting or difficult for me.
It can go either way here. Some things I have no interest in I can't remember at all, while others I have excellent memory of.

4) Procrastination with things I am unsure of or need to think about more.
I do this because I hate making mistakes and I always try to do what I believe to be the best. Regretting bad or hasty decisions makes me feel terrible.

5) Reluctance to look at things from another point of view once my own thought structure is in place.
Nope, even if it's something I have a strong opinion of, I'll always hear what other people have to say and try to understand how they think about it.

6) Discounting an idea if the person it comes from has insufficient credibility with me.
nope

7) Giving people things they don't want in an attempt to be helpful and supportive.
That's never happened, everyone I've given things to liked them a lot and were very thankful. I've been told I'm really good at picking out gifts and cards, and even just doing something to go out of my way to help.

8) Avoidance of emotionally painful situations, rather than dealing with it head on as things start feeling dicey.
I don't sweep things under the rug. It does really suck sometimes but I just deal with it and push through anyways. I'd feel worse if I avoided it, even if the avoidant action would be considered 'easy.'

9) Seeming judgey to some people (usually in my inner circle), even if I don't say anything negative to them. I think it mostly has to do with deciding whether the good would outweigh the bad in bringing it up.
Nobody has told me if I am or not, but I don't think anyone does though.

10) Don't adapt well to others, just distance self instead. That is one from your list I'd agree with. I think though it has more to do with it being just as difficult to change my thinking structure as it is for you to change the perceptions you have built up through Fi. It's easier to disengage with people who are too different from me, than to have constant conflict or ditch something I actually believe to be important and true. It's one of the number one reasons I can't be on a committee. I need to either be a drone or a boss but not a collaborator. It just doesn't work.
I don't think I'm like that at all.

11) Bring things up that bother me much after the fact. Not fun for other people and seems overly critical. I have a hard time deciding which things are important and which aren't until the last straw and then it all comes rushing out and that's no good either. I don't like being that way. Just don't know how to do it better.
I only do that if it's something REALLY important, otherwise I just let it go. Sometimes it can take me a good while to think of a response to something, I'm not always good at coming up with quick answers to difficult questions. Also, sometimes the conversation is just going by too quickly, and one thing that is said stands out to me as something to address but it gets put on hold because it is something that will take a good while to think about and I have to continue to focus on the conversation in the moment so that there isn't a big gap of silence.

12) A bit inflexible and reluctant to try something unless I know exactly how I'll feel about it beforehand.
I'm definitely like that. My anxiety plays into this a lot as well; I have generalized anxiety disorder, which for me is basically a pretty constant moderate level of anxiety, with worse spikes during certain triggers, like heated arguments.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

This thread was started by an INFJ asking for opinions from INFPs. There have many threads where INFPs have asked similar questions or threads which discussed INFP flaws.

But not threads where INFJs are exploring INFP flaws. I didn't see the OP started by an INFJ and perhaps would have not responded if I had. I usually just read these and feel frustrated by them.

I don't think this is a Fi/Fe issue either. I get the impression you are mainly responding to my post, and you'll notice that almost all of my points refer to Ni. Much of the time, I find clashes with INFJs to be a Ne/Ni issue, because it's far more often about perspectives than values

So that makes it more of a focus on INFJ. Consider the possibility that Ni is just as hard to understand as Fi. You may not understand it.

Since INFPs did not create this thread, then I'd say no. I'm not looking to take anyone down a notch to look better. I think I explained my motive in a previous post. You'll notice that none of my criticisms have anything to do with being "unique" or seen that way (rather, "flawless" and "unselfish"), although I don't think INFPs have a stronger desire to be seen as unique than some other types.

I think "rampage" is quite an exaggeration .
Of course INFPs have flaws, and they have been discussed before in other threads. You're welcome to make another if that makes you feel better.

It would actually make me feel like shit. I don't want to think about anyone's flaws. I adore all NF types which is why these kinds of comments are frustrating and sometimes downright hurtful. I don't have a laundry list of complaints against each type. My inner archetype of an INFP is really beautiful, unique, peaceful and insightful. I think each NF type is really interesting and I have people I intensely admire and love of each type. I have read comments you have made analyzing people that I remember for their insightfulness. The only difference here is that these are based on personal annoyance and such.

Yes. INFPs will often "admit" to flaws they may not even have. That's not a good thing either. In person, ISFPs have even more of a problem with this lack of self-confidence. It stems from too high standards & a different kind of obliviousness.

INFPs are not frequently placed on pedestals online... and when they are, then you're likely to see many refute it. Sometimes I find it annoying (and perhaps INFJs find being put on a pedestal distasteful as well), because the reasons are usually not very flattering (ie. the fluffy bunny stuff).

One thing that made me identify with INFJ instead of INFP is that they have this capacity to be blatantly self critical and honest. The INFJ dichotomy of private and exposed is core to who I am. They often don't share because when they do, it is completely open and raw. One has to figure out when it is safe for such a case. I've seen it online many times and read it in the analysis of the type as well as experience as a person. I struggle terribly to make friends because of not being able to find the middle ground so necessary to socializing. Right now I managed to pick a few people who can tolerate this offness about me.

While this is true, I don't think it applies here. The points I've made are regarding people I like(d), but have/had frustrations with, not people I necessarily admired.

I think crying "jealousy" is something of a cop out too... It's fine to defend yourself, but you're trying to discredit me instead of my points. Even if someone has bad motive, they can still make valid points.

The last statement I made was not directed personally, but I did imply earlier that you could be communicating jealousy. I agree that valid points can be made regardless of motivation. You could well have no feeling of jealousy whatsoever, but the points you focus on as complaints about comments on the internet placing INFJ on a pedestal as a point of annoyance while INFPs are not does bring up the question of why would that matter? What is the reason to care about that? For many people it would be jealousy because being socially honored in some way is something people feel frustrated when they are overlooked. It is an archetypal issue for jealousy.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Oops, I got that completely backwards, then.

So, if I asked you why you're sad, would that feel like probing and like I'm doubting your sadness?


*ETA: I realize I'm derailing the thread, so this will be my last post that's not related to the OP.

Eh, I suppose we're all derailing now, but it's to the good intent of understanding, so hopefully the op isn't too unhappy about that.

Asking why is all good. You just don't have to feel like you need to fix that for us. Listening is wonderful.

 

[Ene]

Thank you INFPers, for your honesty, for your answers, for your help and for being yourself. That is what I asked for and that is what you gave.

Thank you fellow INFJers for caring and responding.

Now, I think it's time to start a mutual...what I like about you thread. Haha....It might be FUN.

 

[sorenx7]

[MENTION=8244]Eilonwy[/MENTION] - it would read as harsh and would hurt me to read that, although as the token "reasonable" INFP I would be at least glad I was coming across as trying to meet in the middle.

It's too polarized to be particularly helpful. Although a part of me would appreciate the brutal honesty aspect, the willingness for someone to state their true opinion to that degree.

I have to say that is the first time in my life anyone has ever referred to me as polarizing. If you, a fellow INFP type, see it that way, then, Lord knows I must have no business at all posting on this forum. Just let me say that there is a lot more to me than just one post. In real life, for instance, I'm working on a book with an INFJ, a great friend, one of the best friends I've ever had. I did point out that there is always the exception to the rule. Nevertheless, in general, I do feel I have been treated rather badly by INFJs, and I expressed that in my post. I know it must come across as harsh, but being treated harshly myself through the years might be the reason. Nevertheless, I'll not be posting at all on this forum, and won't be coming back to lurk, either. If I have offended anyone, I sincerely apologize.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I'm curious and want to try an experiment. I'm not trying to be a smartass by doing this; I'm genuinely curious as to how INFPs would read the following:

All I did was take sorenx7's post and switch P and J, and put Peacebaby in for Silkroad (sorry to pick on you PB ). How does it come across to INFPs? Is this an example of how Te from us would look to you? In other words, is this how we should try to speak to you when we have an issue?

*ETA: Here's one of my flaws...it takes me time to review what I've said/posted in my head and see it from other perspectives. With that in mind, I want to say that I was not trying to pick on sorenx7. The word "blunt" has been used a lot and I was wondering if the above was an example of that (Te bluntness) and if, perhaps, I was taking it in a way it wasn't intended.

I find it humorous. I'm pretty sure it's exaggerated and that's how I'd take it. Would I respond to that post? Probably not, but it wouldn't upset me.

I've gone toe-to-toe with SimulatedWorld back in the day (an ENTP with a bone to pick with NFPs) about INFP flaws, and it was not wholly unproductive. Although his motive seems to be extending a back & forth debate for as long as possible (to get attention I presume, and/or because Ne-dom can be like tiresome puppy dogs), and I tired of such play eventually, I was still able to get something through to him AND acknowledge some of his points as valid (despite his purposely harsh tone & tendency to exaggerate). So I feel confident in saying I can dish i out AND take it.

A rundown list with theory quoted (like mine) would be welcome; I like an opportunity to dissect myself, including my flaws, from a semi-detached perspective. I felt couching the complaint list in generalized & theoretical terms would distance it enough to allow intellectual exploration instead of taking personal offense.

FYI, I think some of the issue is expectations. I think many people usually encounter the INFP e9 variety in person & they expect their kind of style from all INFPs. But note the enneagram type of the "harsher" posters in here - we're all 4w5s or at least 4s, I believe. Well, 4w5s are said to have a "harsh edge" (which is a flaw, yes), and peacemaking is not a goal so much as understanding human nature in all its hideous glory (and let's not deny the 4 & 5 INFJs are harsher also, or at least less inclined to peacemaking). So yes, you will get much more raw expression in an INFP atmosphere when the 4w5 variety abounds; it's acceptable & even preferred (IDK how the e9 INFPs cope with it).

Once it's out there though, once you've cut through the BS, then you can really explore the heart of a matter. Everything else feels like noise to me; when people start giving out hugs & reaching an easy to swallow consensus then that's my cue to leave. How dull, how ineffectual. Did we learn anything at all? It doesn't appear we did, but we sure feel good, don't we?