[NF] INFPs, what do INFJs do that drives you nuts?

[Ene]

Thanks, everyone. These are wonderful insights and perhaps they will help me be a better friend to the INFPs in my life.

 

[sulfit]

INFPs and INFJs are in quasi-identical relations going by this chart which follow exactly as you say. Both people seem similar but have a lot of trouble explaining themselves to each other. It also shows that communication between INFJs and ENFPs (IEI and IEE) should be easier than between INFJs and INFPs (IEI and EII).

Both having trouble explaining themselves to each other is so right. It's frustrating in an exhausting way--the INFJ/INFP communication problem. I'm wondering if the similar but different situation might be comparable to a Portuguese and Spaniard trying to talk to each other? The two languages are both very similar yet very different all at the same time. From what I understand of this, some communication is possible, but it can never be completely precise, of course. It would be my guess (from my limited knowledge of Spanish and Portuguese) that Spanish sounds like badly-damaged Portuguese to the Portuguese and Portuguese sounds like badly-damaged Spanish to the Spaniard. It's not a perfect analogy (there is no such thing,) but it is one way to approach the issue.

These two types think in very different manners. When it comes to explaining something, you are right, they cannot speak each other's language and so any arguments keep running in circles. They won't be able to persuade each other.

So if you are INFJ with INFP friend or vice versa, keep this in mind so you don't feel disappointed later.

 

[sorenx7]

These two types think in very different manners. When it comes to explaining something, you are right, they cannot speak each other's language and so any arguments keep running in circles. They won't be able to persuade each other.

So if you are INFJ with INFP friend or vice versa, keep this in mind so you don't feel disappointed later.

Maybe some people will take your advice. If they don't need it now, they may need it in the future and save themselves a world of hurt.

 

[_eric_]

Don't worry [MENTION=7063]SilkRoad[/MENTION]On the forum I do get a bit annoyed more generally with the Ni-dom issue of claiming they know some sort of objective truth about something I think is a matter of opinion - however INFJs tend to show more tact in this than the INTJs. But then, frankly I'm a bit of a know-it-all myself (albeit in a different way) so I should probably shut up

The thing is, you gotta know what areas you can do that in (or at least in as objective a way as possible), and what areas where that sort of thing just doesn't work at all, especially when it comes to people since we are not so easy to fit into a testable, repeatable system. Can't use the same approach for everything, and unless you are dealing with very hard facts, like math, you can't claim to be 100% objective. Regardless, it is better to acknowledge what you do not know, before anything.

As for this whole death spiral of communication thing, I don't think it is inevitable at all. Like anything dealing with communication, it really depends on how mature each person is and how much experience they have in balancing out their weaknesses (like for INFJs, being too pushy and overbearing, refusing to see things from a different perspective and admit they might be wrong). My interactions with NFPs have not been perfect, but overall I have very little trouble communicating with them, and it is always quite enjoyable on both ends. We get along really well. I am always more than happy to explain what I think to them differently or in more detail if there is even a hint of misunderstanding, while doing my best to not come across as too strong or harsh (yes, I have been pretty bad at that before but I am so much better now that it is rarely ever an issue), and I express the same need when what they say perhaps isn't specific enough for me to get what they mean, and I am good at helping them with that process, to kind of collect and refine their thoughts from nebulous and nearly unable to be expressed, to condensed and easily seen, which in my experience they have been very appreciative of. The dynamic is very complementary and if both people are willing to put in the effort and practice lots of patience and careful consideration of each other, it's great for balancing and stretching out each other's weaknesses. That is the key to whether it becomes that awful death spiral or something wonderful. Don't be too set in your own ways and kick that stubbornness to the curb! Remember that you aren't out to prove each other wrong, it's not a formal debate...or at least you shouldn't be going about it that way, if you want things to go well.

Yes, there are bad apples--as with any type--but there are plenty of good ones too!

 

[Recondite]

Expectations without understanding (obviously goes both ways).

If I was an infj i'd read up on differences in functional attitudes without positing "the infp" as being "opposed" i.e. an open ended investigation in understanding...

 

[Recondite]

Getting a feel for how Fi operates may be a good approach... obviously there will be more natural points to address issues between you (because they will come up) but doing some work in understanding before conflict or disagreement can be good.. infps aren't the best at handling conflict in a rational way, better if things are addressed before it blows up to get the best out of the infp harmonising and resolving

 

[Joehobo]

The thing is, you gotta know what areas you can do that in (or at least in as objective a way as possible), and what areas where that sort of thing just doesn't work at all, especially when it comes to people since we are not so easy to fit into a testable, repeatable system. Can't use the same approach for everything, and unless you are dealing with very hard facts, like math, you can't claim to be 100% objective. Regardless, it is better to acknowledge what you do not know, before anything.

As for this whole death spiral of communication thing, I don't think it is inevitable at all. Like anything dealing with communication, it really depends on how mature each person is and how much experience they have in balancing out their weaknesses (like for INFJs, being too pushy and overbearing, refusing to see things from a different perspective and admit they might be wrong). My interactions with NFPs have not been perfect, but overall I have very little trouble communicating with them, and it is always quite enjoyable on both ends. We get along really well. I am always more than happy to explain what I think to them differently or in more detail if there is even a hint of misunderstanding, while doing my best to not come across as too strong or harsh (yes, I have been pretty bad at that before but I am so much better now that it is rarely ever an issue), and I express the same need when what they say perhaps isn't specific enough for me to get what they mean, and I am good at helping them with that process, to kind of collect and refine their thoughts from nebulous and nearly unable to be expressed, to condensed and easily seen, which in my experience they have been very appreciative of. The dynamic is very complementary and if both people are willing to put in the effort and practice lots of patience and careful consideration of each other, it's great for balancing and stretching out each other's weaknesses. That is the key to whether it becomes that awful death spiral or something wonderful. Don't be too set in your own ways and kick that stubbornness to the curb! Remember that you aren't out to prove each other wrong, it's not a formal debate...or at least you shouldn't be going about it that way, if you want things to go well.

Yes, there are bad apples--as with any type--but there are plenty of good ones too!

And winner of the thread goes too....


Seriously, hit the nail on the head.

 

[Ene]

The thing is, you gotta know what areas you can do that in (or at least in as objective a way as possible), and what areas where that sort of thing just doesn't work at all, especially when it comes to people since we are not so easy to fit into a testable, repeatable system. Can't use the same approach for everything, and unless you are dealing with very hard facts, like math, you can't claim to be 100% objective. Regardless, it is better to acknowledge what you do not know, before anything.

As for this whole death spiral of communication thing, I don't think it is inevitable at all. Like anything dealing with communication, it really depends on how mature each person is and how much experience they have in balancing out their weaknesses (like for INFJs, being too pushy and overbearing, refusing to see things from a different perspective and admit they might be wrong). My interactions with NFPs have not been perfect, but overall I have very little trouble communicating with them, and it is always quite enjoyable on both ends. We get along really well. I am always more than happy to explain what I think to them differently or in more detail if there is even a hint of misunderstanding, while doing my best to not come across as too strong or harsh (yes, I have been pretty bad at that before but I am so much better now that it is rarely ever an issue), and I express the same need when what they say perhaps isn't specific enough for me to get what they mean, and I am good at helping them with that process, to kind of collect and refine their thoughts from nebulous and nearly unable to be expressed, to condensed and easily seen, which in my experience they have been very appreciative of. The dynamic is very complementary and if both people are willing to put in the effort and practice lots of patience and careful consideration of each other, it's great for balancing and stretching out each other's weaknesses. That is the key to whether it becomes that awful death spiral or something wonderful. Don't be too set in your own ways and kick that stubbornness to the curb! Remember that you aren't out to prove each other wrong, it's not a formal debate...or at least you shouldn't be going about it that way, if you want things to go well.

Very logical points, Eric. Thanks. I think the maturity thing goes a long way.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I have a lot of negative things I could say... and just might say. It doesn't mean I don't like (some) INFJs, even those who annoy me, but I certianly don't see them as the demi-gods others around here worship them as.

[MENTION=17127]sorenx7[/MENTION] will find this familiar...

I will joke that their only flaw is being "too perfect" because that's all they'll cop to.

INFPs & INFJs often do well in the same realms, but with different approaches. Socionics gets it right there, although I don't think it always leads to misunderstandings. This doesn't bother the INFP, in general, but INFJs seem to think there's "a way" and that of course, is their way. This makes INFJs either diminish the INFP's strengths and/or resent them. As a result, you actually hear much more admiration from the INFP camp, which creates an imbalance & eventual resentment from the INFP. The INFJ is patronizing in trying to "guide" someone who is already superior in some capacity.

INFPs are excessively humble, and will readily admit faults while not giving themselves enough credit, whereas INFJs tend to overrate themselves & divert criticisms so as to not have to cop to any faults. This works to basically leave people with the impression that they are nearly faultless. Basically, INFJs seem to believe their own hype & manipulate others into believing it also.

However, as noted, INFJs tend to have a major blindspot when it comes to humility. That's a Ni-dom problem, but at least with INTJs it's out there, with no faking otherwise; INFJs often have this facade of being caring & self-sacrificing, but then they're very fickle & self-serving internally (which they conveniently put a spin on so they don't have to face their own selfishness).

---

Oh, I found THIS post

These are problems I have experienced in INFJs I know in person. I'm not saying this is what all INFJs are like or that these points even sum up these individuals (who DO have good qualities), but I see these as "common issues" in INFJs.

Anyone want to cop to some of these (even if to lesser degree), explain how you get over these negative tendencies, etc?

I've included some points from a Ni description which seem to explain the "root" of some of these issues.

1. General paranoia. Example: everyone is out to get them for no good reason. All of their problems are due to these people who are out to get them, and there is absolutely nothing they have done to spur these people, of course. In reality, these people may not like them, but they are ignoring the INFJ, not out to get them; OR the INFJ has given them a reason to react that way.

"Have little awareness of the facts of the external world... the world of facts are far removed for them, and they try to confine their contact with these things to the aspects which they can regulate as they like. Everything else appears to them as suspicious, as something they must defend themselves against."

"The influence of reason is inconsistent & self-centered....and the knowledge behind their thoughts is often incomplete.....they may force a line of reasoning that ends up being unclear and contradictory."

2. Selfishness & in denial about it. Playing tyrant/victim, whichever suits them to get their way. They pat themselves on the back for being so "giving", but they only give in ways that suits them (ie. benefits them also in some way), not according to what people truly need & are even asking for.

" Egotism, and a desire to dominate, may cause them to use these requirements of an ideal relationship to benefit their own agenda."

3. They will not take personal responsibility* for any problem in their life or any negative effect they have on others; they are always blaming something outside themselves.

4. General Delusion*. They will see nothing but what they want to see, which is a majorly distorted perspective completely at odds with the reality of the world. See quote for #1.

5. They are not simply sensitive to criticism; they refuse to acknowledge they have flaws at all or that they have any blame in a situation, period. Yet, they criticize others heavily & have high expectations for them that they could never meet themselves.

"They may make demands on others without being prepared to meet the same demands themselves."

6. They make promises or state intentions they either cannot keep or don't intend to keep, mainly to get others to do what they want. When they are called on these promises, they get mad at people for being "demanding"* & accuse them of not being supportive of them by expecting too much. I see this as a form of manipulation, even if not intentional.

"Seek to regulate everything according to their own ideas...
Apt to be tyrants within their own small circle...
Rather than adapt themselves to others, they will limit their contact with those who do not agree with them..."

7. INSANE double standards. For example, only the INFJ is allowed to be hurt; if they hurt you & you communicate this, then they act hurt that you'd dare imply they are even capable of hurting someone (see inability to accept criticism, even if that means they will invalidate others' feelings & trample their needs). Other kinds of double standards they flex include holding other people to standards they themselves fail to meet & likely never will. See quote for #5.

* Elaboration: They respond to emotional pain with a perspective shift which eases that pain by removing personal responsibility. Instead of literally running away (as a Pe type would; seeking a new external environment for better possibilities), they mentally distance themselves from something, creating a new mental possibility (or viewpoint) that has nothing to do with reality, but soothes their feelings. This new, distorted perspective explains away any blame they might have to accept otherwise. Now, they don't have to change what they do either; instead, they insist others change for them, & they either cut these people off or manipulate them to if they won't adhere to the INFJ's wishes.

 

[Fidelia]

Do you see most INFJs on here are looking to be seen as demi gods, or exhibiting these characteristics? Without getting personal, I think over a lot of the long time INFJs on here: cascadeco, Silkroad, Vasilisa, Z Buck, Tiltyred, and they don't strike me that way. [edit: I notice now that fia also has officially joined the INFJ ranks and also belongs on that list]. On the other hand, perhaps I'm looking at it from my own context and the INFJ interaction style looks different to an onlooker.

I agree that INFPs tend to more openly express admiration and also downplay their strengths. I don't agree that all INFJs everywhere don't see that INFPs have strengths they don't.

I'd like to better understand. Is it a matter of hoping INFJs will admit to the flaws you have experienced in them (if so, a different approach might be more effective with us/them). Is it giving other types a heads up to stay away? Or is there no intention at all other than voicing an opinion?

I can't speak for other INFJs, but these are a few of the flaws I see most commonly in myself:
1) Tendency to avoid blame or feeling that I am disappointing others. As a result, overpromise and don't deliver and therefore do just what I was hoping to avoid.
2) Grandiose dreams with poor follow through. I think this has something to do with Ni. What you see farther along is like a mirage that keeps disappearing or a dream that you just woke up from and try to recreate. Anything you create seems like a poor replication of the glory it ought to be. And so you put it off or scrap it instead of finishing the project.
3) Bad with details that are uninteresting or difficult for me.
4) Procrastination with things I am unsure of or need to think about more.
5) Reluctance to look at things from another point of view once my own thought structure is in place.
6) Discounting an idea if the person it comes from has insufficient credibility with me.
7) Giving people things they don't want in an attempt to be helpful and supportive.
8) Avoidance of emotionally painful situations, rather than dealing with it head on as things start feeling dicey.
9) Seeming judgey to some people (usually in my inner circle), even if I don't say anything negative to them. I think it mostly has to do with deciding whether the good would outweigh the bad in bringing it up.
10) Don't adapt well to others, just distance self instead. That is one from your list I'd agree with. I think though it has more to do with it being just as difficult to change my thinking structure as it is for you to change the perceptions you have built up through Fi. It's easier to disengage with people who are too different from me, than to have constant conflict or ditch something I actually believe to be important and true. It's one of the number one reasons I can't be on a committee. I need to either be a drone or a boss but not a collaborator. It just doesn't work.
11) Bring things up that bother me much after the fact. Not fun for other people and seems overly critical. I have a hard time deciding which things are important and which aren't until the last straw and then it all comes rushing out and that's no good either. I don't like being that way. Just don't know how to do it better.
12) A bit inflexible and reluctant to try something unless I know exactly how I'll feel about it beforehand.

I think with time, I've at least become more aware of some of these things and the negative impact they can have on others and have worked to improve them. I'd be the first to admit that there are aspects of me that would be most frustrating to deal with. I do think though that it is not so much a matter of refusal to admit they're a problem, as it is how to change in a way that is sustainable.

 

[SilkRoad]

I have a lot of negative things I could say... and just might say. It doesn't mean I don't like (some) INFJs, even those who annoy me, but I certianly don't see them as the demi-gods others around here worship them as.

This seems unfair. There was more of this when I was first on the site, but if anything, these days the INFJs get a lot of bad press: neurotic, self-righteous, constant and gleeful door-slamming, fickle, you name it.

I've seen little or any of the "demi-god" stuff for ages. Not that I'm looking for it; anyone who knows me on here is likely to see that I'm more likely to decry the "INFJs are psychic wonder-beings" reputation, than hold it up. (Which I also think goes for many of the INFJs here.)

The INFJs I relate to on here are more likely to be pretty honest about their own flaws. Believe me, I am aware that I can be self-righteous and rigid at least some of the time...

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I can't speak for other INFJs, but these are a few of the flaws I see most commonly in myself:
1) Tendency to avoid blame or feeling that I am disappointing others. As a result, overpromise and don't deliver and therefore do just what I was hoping to avoid.
2) Grandiose dreams with poor follow through. I think this has something to do with Ni. What you see farther along is like a mirage that keeps disappearing or a dream that you just woke up from and try to recreate. Anything you create seems like a poor replication of the glory it ought to be. And so you put it off or scrap it instead of finishing the project.
3) Bad with details that are uninteresting or difficult for me.
4) Procrastination with things I am unsure of or need to think about more.
5) Reluctance to look at things from another point of view once my own thought structure is in place.
6) Discounting an idea if the person it comes from has insufficient credibility with me.
7) Giving people things they don't want in an attempt to be helpful and supportive.
8) Avoidance of emotionally painful situations, rather than dealing with it head on as things start feeling dicey.
9) Seeming judgey to some people (usually in my inner circle), even if I don't say anything negative to them. I think it mostly has to do with deciding whether the good would outweigh the bad in bringing it up.
10) Don't adapt well to others, just distance self instead. That is one from your list I'd agree with. I think though it has more to do with it being just as difficult to change my thinking structure as it is for you to change the perceptions you have built up through Fi. It's easier to disengage with people who are too different from me, than to have constant conflict or ditch something I actually believe to be important and true. It's one of the number one reasons I can't be on a committee. I need to either be a drone or a boss but not a collaborator. It just doesn't work.
11) Bring things up that bother me much after the fact. Not fun for other people and seems overly critical. I have a hard time deciding which things are important and which aren't until the last straw and then it all comes rushing out and that's no good either. I don't like being that way. Just don't know how to do it better.
12) A bit inflexible and reluctant to try something unless I know exactly how I'll feel about it beforehand.

This is something that struck me when I used to hang out on the INFJ forum - a number of INFJs are brutally honest about their personal flaws. Other people may assume they are not because the topic doesn't come up, so if it isn't being explicitly said, the assumption is that it is not acknowledged.

The INFJ/INFP communication difference can be really complex because from my experience growing up with an INFP sister, I think we can share many of the same strengths and flaws externally, but for different internal reasons. It has made it really complicated to make sense of it. It think it also makes it easy for either type to take those flaws and project them onto the other category. If there was a reverse thread, you could well see similar complaints.

One generalization that could be said is that when Fe is controlling, it focuses on moderating external behaviors, and when Fi is controlling it focuses on moderating internal ideals? I don't think either type is by nature controlling, but can become so based on experience, and so it can manifest itself differently.

I think both INFJs and INFPs should be placed on pedestals because we are all pretty awesome. I am often floored by reading INFP insights about human nature on this forum and my sister and I have marvelous discussions because we come up with different ideas that compliment on the same topics. I feel like the ideal of INFJ/INFP communication is a perfect balance that completes the picture and since NFs are holistic in thinking, it is a beautiful thing to experience.

But now on with the thread topic about the negative aspects of Ni-Fe'ers...

 

[Glycerine]

This seems unfair. There was more of this when I was first on the site, but if anything, these days the INFJs get a lot of bad press: neurotic, self-righteous, constant and gleeful door-slamming, fickle, you name it.

I've seen little or any of the "demi-god" stuff for ages. Not that I'm looking for it; anyone who knows me on here is likely to see that I'm more likely to decry the "INFJs are psychic wonder-beings" reputation, than hold it up. (Which I also think goes for many of the INFJs here.)

The INFJs I relate to on here are more likely to be pretty honest about their own flaws. Believe me, I am aware that I can be self-righteous and rigid at least some of the time...

To be honest, nobody gets a good rep around here because whenever anyone says anything remotely nice about any type, there are always a few who will cut them back down to size (I am sure I took part in that ). There is about as much glorification of INFPs as INFJs from what I can tell even when I typed as INFJ. There seems to be a hyper-focus on our own individual types which makes sense.

As a NFJ, I try to be brutally honest with my flaws because I don't want them used as a weapon against me moreso than me being "sanctimonious".

But then again NFJs can be highly critical and perfectionistic, which can mean they either are rather blunt about their flaws or turn to a measure of "double standards" in order to avoid the flaws and reconcile them in a deluded fashion. Either way, we can be blindsided by our flaws just like anyone else.

 

[pinkgraffiti]

err, let me interrupt to say that although spanish have difficulty understanding (spoken) portuguese, the opposite is not true. even an uneducated portuguese will understand (spoken and written) spanish very well. the problem is possibly a case of "sound", because portuguese is too "closed" a language to be understood by spanish. but spanish can usually understand written portuguese quite well, as can italians.

I've just got to know. Do you think there's anyway to fix that? Maybe the Spainard could learn to speak Portuguese or vice versa. I mean he'd still be a Spainard and the Portuguese would still be Portuguese but they'd at least be able to communicate. I guess that's what I want to do. Learn to speak Portuguese. [Also an imperfect analogy, but the best I can do at the moment.]

 

[Ene]

Thanks, Pink.

 

[sorenx7]

I have a lot of negative things I could say... and just might say. It doesn't mean I don't like (some) INFJs, even those who annoy me, but I certianly don't see them as the demi-gods others around here worship them as.

[MENTION=17127]sorenx7[/MENTION] will find this familiar...

I will joke that their only flaw is being "too perfect" because that's all they'll cop to.

INFPs & INFJs often do well in the same realms, but with different approaches. Socionics gets it right there, although I don't think it always leads to misunderstandings. This doesn't bother the INFP, in general, but INFJs seem to think there's "a way" and that of course, is their way. This makes INFJs either diminish the INFP's strengths and/or resent them. As a result, you actually hear much more admiration from the INFP camp, which creates an imbalance & eventual resentment from the INFP. The INFJ is patronizing in trying to "guide" someone who is already superior in some capacity.

INFPs are excessively humble, and will readily admit faults while not giving themselves enough credit, whereas INFJs tend to overrate themselves & divert criticisms so as to not have to cop to any faults. This works to basically leave people with the impression that they are nearly faultless. Basically, INFJs seem to believe their own hype & manipulate others into believing it also.

However, as noted, INFJs tend to have a major blindspot when it comes to humility. That's a Ni-dom problem, but at least with INTJs it's out there, with no faking otherwise; INFJs often have this facade of being caring & self-sacrificing, but then they're very fickle & self-serving internally (which they conveniently put a spin on so they don't have to face their own selfishness).

---

Oh, I found THIS post

The INFJ is patronizing in trying to "guide" someone who is already superior in some capacity.

That sentence especially struck me. Yes, I know what it's like to have to experience that. I think everything you have posted here is valid, though. I could probably be a little more specific. However, I think it's probably better that I don't.

 

[sorenx7]

err, let me interrupt to say that although spanish have difficulty understanding (spoken) portuguese, the opposite is not true. even an uneducated portuguese will understand (spoken and written) spanish very well. the problem is possibly a case of "sound", because portuguese is too "closed" a language to be understood by spanish. but spanish can usually understand written portuguese quite well, as can italians.

Although not fluent in either, I have heard people who are fluent say exactly what you state here and believe it to be totally accurate.

 

[sorenx7]

To be honest, nobody gets a good rep around here because whenever anyone says anything remotely nice about any type, there are always a few who will cut them back down to size (I am sure I took part in that ). There is about as much glorification of INFPs as INFJs from what I can tell even when I typed as INFJ. There seems to be a hyper-focus on our own individual types which makes sense.

As a NFJ, I try to be brutally honest with my flaws because I don't want them used as a weapon against me moreso than me being "sanctimonious".

But then again NFJs can be highly critical and perfectionistic, which can mean they either are rather blunt about their flaws or turn to a measure of "double standards" in order to avoid the flaws and reconcile them in a deluded fashion. Either way, we can be blindsided by our flaws just like anyone else.

Having been around both extensively, I can say there is a world of difference in dealing with them. Based on my personal experience at least, ENFJs (although they can be harsh) seem to understand me much better than INFJs do.

 

[the state i am in]

my biggest flaw is simply being oblivious to the social story.

my constitution is deeply habituated within me, often stubbornly so, and this obliviousness is the result of a lack of development in other ways. i will at times resist simply owning the fault, but only in the sense that i resist others utilizing pejorative judgments that themselves are constituted within another set of conditions that is not the same and is not superior simply because it is connected to more powerful ways of playing within a particular social space. so instead i often try to find a common denominator, through abstraction, to re-orient the scales. to find an equilibrium for shared learning to best result. i don't think it's fair to watch them tip in service of a direction of change as much as being part of a larger, more reflexive process of feedback. a completed circle. an ability to recognize how the spaces themselves constitute the patterns of conditions from which we can make judgments at all. the spaces that typological thinking demarcate (even tho most of us use it to try to change other types and demand apologies for how we've been treated in the past by those "types" that we deem based on the political boundaries that emerge in our negotiations of what types are and in our own anonymous sourcing of "facts").

at the same time, my social development, as an inferior so type, hinders me. in contrast to updating the story of others, i think in terms of me too much. in terms of sx self-aggrandizement. meanwhile, as an e5, an e8 shadow, a willful body determined to know its own power lies beneath my habitual awareness. i either completely resist the use of power, which takes me beyond the edge of what i can realistically be (setting up those j predictions, those shoulds, in ways that are too disconnected from reality to be fair to me which would allow me to be fair to the world, to be integrated as an interior and as an exterior at the same time), which undermines my foundation and self-efficacy, and leaves me needy and more manipulative as a result. contradictions are everywhere, but the Fe guess system is what it is. we still live towards something at all times. to try to balance the idea-ness of this towards with the moment is the challenge.

i think the most annoying thing about infjs in general is their goddamned preciousness. the desire to never have waves. avoid conflict at all costs. comparing everything to an ideal of what is beautiful. at times refusing to fight for anything because they identify with their ideals too much, which are simply their ideas of themselves. an unwillingness to let go of their desire for harmony with their values (/motives) when deeper issues and higher priorities sometimes need to take the forefront. both internally and externally, and to know the difference between the two. otherwise, there's too much self-referentiality (tangled chains of meaning with no beginning and no end) to move forward, open up to uncertainty, learn from experience, and be wrong (in the composite eyes of the aggregation of all the eyes through which they can see). it prevents them from, at the same time, learning to use their own, and from staying with themselves enough to recognize the inherent conflicts that can be reconciled not simply from a higher order of meaning but from the creative fluctuations that emerge as a result of this instability. and that exists within us just as much as it exists outside of us, a fact that prevents us from losing awareness of what it's like to be fully immersed in experience and instead requires us to notice changes and stay in the flow of time, because it too has much to teach us. and because it is a central way in which we can know and be with others, and ourselves.

giving us shit about this distance from the moment, however, is also unfair. this is like criticizing an infp for inferior Te. it's easy for it to just feel like impatience and a lack of acceptance, because it expects too much too soon. we still try to be present in the ways that we can be. we are still trying to influence in the ways that seem right to us. we are still committing to what we think is important. we are still really good at listening in some highly unusual ways that can help people with meaning traps. and it's true, much can get lost in the translation between the infp and the infj way, but this loss happens in both directions. im my own life, i have so much experience making sense of moments in which we've both misheard each other. to feel like you are treated as if you are not even trying is frustrating because we are thinking about the gap all the damn time. and it is the joke orangeappled says. we are trying to be too perfect, so that we miss the point because we overcommit to solving the problem in one way that is bound to fail. for us, we inherently focus on the problem of bridging the gap and creating common denominators. to find quasi-stable methods for comparison (to help us all see ourselves in a shared context) and to establish a communication network that can thrive. for me this results in a self constituted to give up itself to bridge the gap, motivated by the self-aggrandizing desire to be the best bridge and bind the best self, losing itself in the process of not having a self to give because it is solely fixated on the motive of being the giver (also e4 --> e2 tension). it sounds silly, circular, and paradoxical, but this is true of any "type," any "cognitive function" seen in isolation. no function is sufficient to represent the whole of the socio-cognitive reality that we are part of. we feel this and try to live up to this understanding, which often results in high expectations of consideration from others. Te lives in a land of black and white.

and with infps, the most dangerous pattern is feeling condemned unfairly by another while at the same time feeling superior. this often results in the transliteration of thinking styles. because both types, and especially e4s, recognize the contradictions in any claim to superior value. infjs too recognize that our ideals and values are always constructs that we use to mediate our boundaries and patterns of connection, but what we focus on is an attention to how those must be negotiated across a great variety of orders. we think in terms of orders. my assumption, and maybe this speaks to infj assumptions in general, is that everything has function. our ability to recognize this is a necessity to live in the relativity that we are tossed into. it is a way of comparing value for orders of things rather than simply at an embodied, subjective level, an experiential level. it is a way of acceptance and faith-building and not simply avoidance. it is not simply blind purpose but a central aspect of the evolutionary process. it helps us organize our guesses, rather than thinking that ex post facto "reasons" are enough, or that time can be slowed down to allow reason to be the sole guiding light, or to bask in the false sense that experience can exist without meaning (which is itself the process of constellating across orders).

also, it's really frustrating feeling like your ability to describe your experience is immediately written off as a way of manipulation and shirking the responsibility to change by others who rely on the power of social expectation, of j, even when they pretend like what they are fighting is the j world. because we all use social expectation when we make a case for anything. it is part of all of us, part of what binds us together not just socially but individually. we all use meanings that have various weights without seeing why those meanings are weighted the way they are. we have to. they organize us. they are efficiency. they are the structure of intelligence that provides the context for experience. the conditions of communicating across domains of experience. we cannot unpack the world at all times. as an inj, and probably an awkward e5, it's especially frustrating when those others are playing the "common sense" game in ways that seem deliberately ignorant in order to utilize social resources unreflexively (/without responsibility). when your describe yourself, what you are at your core not simply to issue a claim to RIGHTS but to offer an account of a kind of experience, reflexive in the ways you can be, a kind of humanity that deserves respect and a sincere attempt to relate to it and meet it halfway as well. even as we at times need pushing because we get stuck in too many orders and forget what it's like to be a person who shits, whose stomach growls, and who must politic with their own desires just like everyone else. the whole being above this thing is a categorical error that plagues us, but the underlying why is not bad, and it constitutes a path that we must take in our own individuation.

finally, the T act of visualization is absolutely necessary to help us cut through our ideas and see the outcomes in a more precise way. without it, we are somewhat helpless, and this feeling of helplessness does produce a great deal of existential and social anxiety. visualization, or perhaps simulation more broadly, helps us ground ourselves in ways that can be measured for likelihood. it brings us closer to the kind of learning that produces subjective, experiential ethics, the ability to relate to others' stories of what has happened by thinking about the outside world, by the descriptions of the event that you can manage when you experience it as a kind of simulated process. without these movies, we have no flow, and cannot merge and diverge fluidly from the worlds of others.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I think I've said enough in the thread Zbuck linked ... so I'll leave it at that. Unless you have a specific question.