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  1. #81
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorenx7 View Post
    I have to say that is the first time in my life anyone has ever referred to me as polarizing. If you, a fellow INFP type, see it that way, then, Lord knows I must have no business at all posting on this forum. Just let me say that there is a lot more to me than just one post. In real life, for instance, I'm working on a book with an INFJ, a great friend, one of the best friends I've ever had. I did point out that there is always the exception to the rule. Nevertheless, in general, I do feel I have been treated rather badly by INFJs, and I expressed that in my post. I know it must come across as harsh, but being treated harshly myself through the years might be the reason. Nevertheless, I'll not be posting at all on this forum, and won't be coming back to lurk, either. If I have offended anyone, I sincerely apologize.
    You are entitled to share your thoughts here. No one is trying to shut you down. Free expression reigns! Do post, your viewpoints are welcome. You must surely know however that to be that honest means you will get a variety of response.

    That can be difficult to read sometimes, but don't be a stranger here.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I've gone toe-to-toe with SimulatedWorld back in the day (an ENTP with a bone to pick with NFPs) about INFP flaws, and it was not wholly unproductive. Although his motive seems to be extending a back & forth debate for as long as possible (to get attention I presume, and/or because Ne-dom can be like tiresome puppy dogs), and I tired of such play eventually, I was still able to get something through to him AND acknowledge some of his points as valid (despite his purposely harsh tone & tendency to exaggerate). So I feel confident in saying I can dish i out AND take it.
    As can I. I've played that game too.

    FYI, I think some of the issue is expectations. I think many people usually encounter the INFP e9 variety in person & they expect their kind of style from all INFPs. But note the enneagram type of the "harsher" posters in here - we're all 4w5s or at least 4s, I believe. Well, 4w5s are said to have a "harsh edge" (which is a flaw, yes), and peacemaking is not a goal so much as understanding human nature in all its hideous glory (and let's not deny the 4 & 5 INFJs are harsher also, or at least less inclined to peacemaking). So yes, you will get much more raw expression in an INFP atmosphere when the 4w5 variety abounds; it's acceptable & even preferred (IDK how the e9 INFPs cope with it).
    Eh, whatever. How do we "cope" with it? Eye-rolls I guess?

    Nah, it's good, I like the passion of it too.

    Your reductive approach to e9 has become yawn-inducing however. If you wish to diminish my posts to something akin to fairy-dust cooperation and milquetoast placation, I suppose that's your prerogative. You know I hold strong opinions as well, but I don't need to be seen as a special snowflake in order to communicate those points. And you also know I'm tenacious regardless of my desire to find the common thread of harmony amongst parties with differing viewpoints. (I am assuming you've paid attention over the years.)

    If a situation warranted it, you and I could completely go toe to toe and I would fully hold my own, if not own you. You may be able to induce more pain, granted, but that wouldn't stop me from standing up for my particular values in this regard.

    fwiw, there are many more e4's here on the forum than e9's, and I meet more 4's IRL than 9's too, so I think my brand of input holds value as a result, lends additional perspective. And perhaps more pertinent, as an so-dom, I more readily see the value of group harmony as well as the inherent flaws within that system. I don't need to flip the bird at it so much as work the fine edge.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #82
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    this is one of those times where the "facts" are difficult for us to agree upon. in my own way of disambiguating type correlations, 3w4 is an enfj type and not an infj type. i see 3, 7, and 8 as the most extroverted in orientation. the most driven to do things in the world. while i see so/sx 4s and 9s that look more extroverted and rely less on sp slowness and self-sufficiency, there's still a big difference to me. i also think 90% of the e1 infjs are incorrect. i think 1w9 can be an infj or an intj type, but 1w2 is always an ej.

    without common ground, and without clearly bounding the perceptions we share, it's difficult to talk about features of a type.
    No, you're correct - I don't think a 3w4 is always an extrovert. I don't believe any Jungian type can be any enneagram type, but I don't find 3 at odds with INFJ (with 7 & 8 & 2, yes). The 3 is just looking to establish worth externally, which doesn't have to be Fe-dom to me, but usually is an extrovert or a J of some kind. It's most at odds with IxxPs, IMO. I see an INFJ e3 as someone who deceives themselves with their perspective shifts, and who establishes a valuable image in Fe terms, but mostly in their own mind. They pursue a vain fantasy, with no connection to the concrete reality. The focus is on the inner image of self, so it can be very at odds with their actual appearance to others. The extroverted 3 is much more aware of their outer image.

    i can only sympathize here. i think that often times Pe types think things are self-evident that do not appear as self-evident to me and must rely on a ton of assumptions that are sometimes not recognized too. at the same time, i am trying to admit that i recognize that my Pe obliviousness is clearly my own biggest limitation. the thing is, i don't think there's anything that can really be done about it. i can either get wildly, uncontrollably depressed that i am fucking oblivious, or i can accept it and work from my strengths and try to get more comfortable with the extremely difficult to accept moment, meaning, sensation, etc of what it's like to be wrong and to truly face that when the world is so complicated and the scales of wrong are extremely complex. and i can also appreciate that my experience of the unseen, the kind of reflexivity that operates within my own kind of inner vision, is valuable and offers tools to change the world for the better as well. and is part of the larger system of checks and balances that we collectively are.
    No one is saying "be someone else", but when there is repeatedly a collision with reality because mentally you don't want to deal with it, then you either change, adapt, grow, or you self-sabotage. Every type faces this; you integrate or you become less functional. What I see with the INFJs who inspired my criticism is weak Fe, but perhaps I am judging Fe from my Fi standards. I think, if something is not working with people, then doesn't good Fe adapt? Isn't it about viability? But I guess it's a Fi manner of thinking to value different individual needs enough to adapt so long as no larger moral issue is at stake. I just don't see the same problem with actual Fe-dom so much.... So in those INFJs, I see Fe as just supporting the Ni perspective, not balancing it. It's like when an INFP only sees possibilites which confirm an existing valuation (which distorted Si bolsters as well); Ne can't really help us move then. We're really resisting our auxiliary because it means redefining a value-concept. I don't know exactly how it works with INFJs, but when/how does Fe save the day? I see tert Ti as a tempting trap, but I'm of the opinion that the tert is positive mainly as a sort of playful, stress reliever. Otherwise, it just feeds the bias of the ego.

    this seems like an e4 generalization issue. to be the ecologist, to aim for equanimity, without being as self-aware as we would like to in order to perform a function that is simply beyond us but still must be done, as imperfectly as we are able to. and e4s are made to experience the loss of all changes, the negative difference, that makes them critically oriented both in terms of reason-giving and in terms of aesthetic prejudice. balancing that is the mastery of the e4-->e1 integration. and we're probably, and this may not be how you see it, working with e4 and e1-->e4 (the people we both feel we are battling against at times, both outside of us and internally as well).
    I don't disagree with this, but I'm not connecting it to the main topic. Is this why I have my harsh edge in my comments in here? Yes. But I don't think it invalidates my comments. Is there really no depersonalization with the INFJ when conflict solving where they don't want to adapt? That's precisely what I see as the tert Ti trap....

    so i guess i feel like this is a negotiation about the negotiation that often happens with nfps. and it's not an inherent flaw to work with this different methodology, because this too needs to be negotiated.

    it can be difficult for us to read you when you do prefer an informing style that is more embodied rather than a pointed answer to a pointed question. i'm consistently surprised that one of my best friends, an infp 4w5 so/sx, often sees ways of modifying behavior that would be enormously helpful to me but says nothing, or says something in a way that i do not see. i just want to be like, you're a good friend! you have not only rights but responsibilities to say something obviously helpful! be more directive, dammit! (probably one area i have an easier time with 9w1 infps than 4w5s). explain the reason! identify how to control the change, not just stay with all the consequences of these continual fuckups! sure i'll learn the lesson, but you already know it, so just share it! teach! sometimes it's worth it to bring to light a negative effect on a variety of people and on myself that will lead to me being hurt, my identity being bruised, etc, when it's for the greater good. i don't think the informing style is everything. it doesn't supply the ethics in and of itself. it is a way you have mastered being ethical, but not the only way. it too has its flaws, for it is best at seeing only at certain scales of activity. it protects the experiences of individuals in spaces over the spaces themselves. constraints are not evil just because you have not been able to experience their full process of emergence. this is the cultural knowledge that we share, that organizes us without our knowing, that binds us so that we can focus awareness in other ways. but infjs and Ni types focus on updating the cultural knowledge that seems circular and tautological and is harder to diagnose causally because we exist through it as much as it exists through us. focusing our attention on that makes us reflexive in some ways that are highly costly to us and others in other ways. but it doesn't just make us wrong. it makes us flawed and incomplete and dependent on others just like everyone else.
    Of course there is a downside to informing (vagueness, for example), but it's a difficulty for an INFP to find the middle ground between informing, which allows someone to choose a solution which suits their individual nature (our preferred method), and just criticizing in an insensitive, inferior Te way. It seems like if someone cares, is awareness not enough to get the ball rolling? I tend to think the person doesn't care much then.
    And with INFJs, you can't tell if suggestions fall on deaf ears or not. When you pull out some Fe standards, they seem to get mad that you're using their tricks. Then there's the "la la la la - I can't hear you!" response and/or playing victim ("why does everyone pick on me!"). At that point, I don't know if anything can be done on my or anyone else's part; the person has to decide if they want to move or stay stuck.

    but regardless of this, we do go through phases when it feels like it's controlling me in ways that are not fair to the rules and understanding of my own worldview. when we feel judged, dismissed, as if our perspective as we experience it is less important than the way the other person renders the context and defines the situation.
    I think for an INFP it comes down to the view of the facts not mattering so much as acknowledging what is significant. Whether it's blue or red doesn't matter - it had an impact on someone. How do we prevent it or deal with it? If you deny you had anything to do with it, but it's always following you around, then it just looks like stubborn delusion and/or a lack of caring about how you affect others. That's where I see an evasion of taking responsibility. That's where I might pull a Fe card & say, "it's standard to accomodate this feeling; it's not an unreasonable or unusual demand."


    i think it's unfair because i just don't think you can do anything about it. Te (especially as an Si user) isn't something where you can get the categories first and then iterate to know the boundaries of the guesses that help you parse out the grammar of the statistical prediction system. you need repetitions. and you need attention to find ways of recognizing this new way of thinking, of incorporating this process that has been going on in the dark and shining a big fucking spotlight on it so that it can connect to your overall long-term decision-making system. they can only be taught in terms of allowing your dominant systems to recognize what is missing and look for them a little more closely, to start to build by staying with different kinds of awareness and cognitive processes that are unusual and hard to locate. i always forget where Ti is, and the huge storms of Ni iteration just kind of wash over everything and require clean-up, restoration, and rebuilding to find balance again. we're all like this, and this developmental process takes fucking forever (in lived time) and rarely reaches a full completion. to criticize your inferior is to criticize you for not being a perfectly enlightened person. especially when you don't seem to establish or recognize first and foremost that you appreciate the strengths of the other person and work your best to understand the value of that.
    But I don't think awareness of where you lack has to mean full incorporation of your inferior processes. I think you can solve/lessen many issues with your preferred processes once you're aware of them, and you can also rely on the strengths & support of others for guidance. But that takes humility too. You can acknowledge you're not good with Pe (or whatever), but do you have the humility to accept input from someone who is? I mean, I've had to recognize the validity of Je as times; it doesn't mean I generally take a Je approach, but it helps me see when I'm not being effective & why. I can then seek a solution instead of hitting my head against a wall.

    And sure, no one is perfect, and I'm not asking for that. You're creating something of a false dichotomy here. It's not all or nothing. Surely, you believe people can improve? Individuals will always have a tendency for certain flaws, but that doesn't mean they can't minimize them.

    I mean, if someone informs you of a problem, but they don't advise any solution, then can't you ask for it? I see this as improved Fe, to find an external "right method" to act with.

    i am glad that i am able to say something that means more to you and that you recognize is an attempt to find common ground. but i wrote all the other stuff to do that as well, so if you don't think it's important, it's hard for me to feel that you are trying to understand what i am saying too. because i'm trying to show you both the bad and good side at the same time and then show that they're somewhat inseparable. that they can't just be corrected any more than we can just be perfect, but then can be improved through effort, strategy, and patience.
    I wasn't totally devaluing the rest, just noting what I found to be most clarifying for me. I certainly agree with & only ask for the latter.

    because what prevents us from being what you want is partly a limitation of type and partly a swing to the bad side of what we can be. falling down the levels of health. when you feel depressed, do you not lash out at others more? do you not forget how to give? or appreciation what you have been given? i feel like when we lose balance, we lose some degree of control over our behavior. and then the blindspots are more obvious and less integrated. we lose our well-being.
    This is true, but I've come to the realization as an e4 that I (and others) have a lot more control over these bad moods, bad days, bad years, etc, and the behaviors they lead to than we like to admit. You don't have to give into it. You don't have to stay there if you don't want to. I didn't like this realization much. I always feel like I'm being asked to be a robot, to not feel anything, to deny the reality of sadness & misery in life - but then I accept that it's just not working for me to live by my moods. And I always have a large degree of control - it's just a matter of wanting to see that I do. The limitations lessen a lot when you define yourself less narrowly. Whenever I catch myself saying, "that's not who I am, so I can't do X", then I realize I am shooting myself in the foot. And I do that a lot - shoot myself in the foot, and then I limp around in life.
    So I see INFJs shooting themselves in the foot because they're limiting the sphere they will concede to operate it. How/when/why do they ever decide to widen that sphere?

    to me, this is the most helpful thing you have said to express what you need from us. i agree that this kind of awareness needs to be defended, practiced, and cultivated by everyone. and i know that inferior Pe can lead to a kind of ignorance related to the concrete effects of these things, especially as we identify with emotion, as we embody value through an external perspective rather than an internal one. our feelings are outside of us. they're not focused by an inner kind of awareness. this too is what i appreciate so much about the concentrated emotional intelligence of Fi.

    i think the imbalance also comes from the instincts. so types favoring the group too much at the expense of the marginal experiences. sx types favoring their own self-aggrandizement and self-directed leadership over the wishes of others. and sp types denying that others have needs at all in order to stabilize their own situation.
    Concerning the bolded, it's admittedly difficult for me to grasp this, and all I can wonder is how expression of feeling can be transferred so the INFJ doesn't merely feel weighted by someone else's feeling, but can see how it connects to the wider net of people interacting productively. Because I get the sense that this is when the temptation to depersonalize comes in, so as to simply remove the weight of the feeling by invalidating it. I try to couch it in "this is not just ME & MY feeling", but that doesn't always work. Having to reference someone/thing else as if my own feeling is not valid enough is an irritation for me as an INFP too; it further emphasizes that this person doesn't really value me.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  3. #83
    Senior Member Presumptuous Pepper's Avatar
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    In a perfect world...differences which exist between INFJ and INFP would be completing each other. But in a real world, constant differences and disagreements tire out the relationship and start to be annoying.
    Thrills happen for awesome reasons, shit happens for shitty reason. So don't pay attention on stuff which happen for shitty reasons, but on ones which happen for awesome reasons. I'm an awesome reason.

  4. #84
    Senior Member _eric_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Presumptuous Pepper View Post
    In a perfect world...differences which exist between INFJ and INFP would be completing each other.
    I've experienced that though. It isn't easy (but I think it's relatively much easier for me than most, I love it and I can definitely handle it. ), but it's entirely possible and very much worth it, at least to me anyways. It doesn't require a perfect world...but, in relationships, I do everything I can to make what I think is ideal into reality, and I have pretty high standards for relationships haha. Seriously, I've gotten along very well with every INFP (and ENFP as well) I've ever met, both in person and online.

  5. #85
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Your reductive approach to e9 has become yawn-inducing however. If you wish to diminish my posts to something akin to fairy-dust cooperation and milquetoast placation, I suppose that's your prerogative. You know I hold strong opinions as well, but I don't need to be seen as a special snowflake in order to communicate those points. And you also know I'm tenacious regardless of my desire to find the common thread of harmony amongst parties with differing viewpoints. (I am assuming you've paid attention over the years.)
    I wasn't reducing anything in the larger context...but I have a different goal. My point becomes lost with such a method, so no, I don't value it a lot in this specific context. In another context, I might value it. But I'm not looking to bond in this discussion, or that's not how I bond. When it begins to take place, then I feel like my goal is edged out. Sure, bonds are important, significant, lubricate communication, etc, but I find they also bring in a bias. I don't want someone to consider my points valid because they like me. I can see how this works with Fe-ers though...which was a frustration I said I have.

    Asserting "specialness" has nothing to do with my comments (and that's a rather tired dig to make at a 4). Can I note differences in styles without people assuming I'm holding one universally superior? I'm saying what I prefer. Perhaps it was unfair to say "we" in my sarcastic comment about learning anything, but I just don't see much evidence of it. I do see people bonding.

    If a situation warranted it, you and I could completely go toe to toe and I would fully hold my own, if not own you. You may be able to induce more pain, granted, but that wouldn't stop me from standing up for my particular values in this regard.
    Okay then.

    fwiw, there are many more e4's here on the forum than e9's, and I meet more 4's IRL than 9's too, so I think my brand of input holds value as a result, lends additional perspective. And perhaps more pertinent, as an so-dom, I more readily see the value of group harmony as well as the inherent flaws within that system. I don't need to flip the bird at it so much as work the fine edge.
    I didn't devalue e9 input in general.... Their opinions are perfectly valid in this thread, but theirs were not the ones taken issue with. I said e9 was the EXPECTED manner for an INFP, and so when the 4 approach is given, it throws people. Rather, the 4 approach has been devalued, because it was dismissed by some as dramatics & pot-stirring. What defense does the e9 need to give? Their manner was not questioned.

    I'm pretty sure I noted the rawness of INFP forums/discussions is due to a heavy 4 presence also.... although I disagree that there are more e4 INFPs in person, and certainly not more e4 Fi-dom than e9 Fi-dom. Neither statistics nor theory would support that. That doesn't make e9 individuals less unique or special. It just means that ego fix is more common for a human to have, for obvious reasons (it's a much better one in terms of survival).
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  6. #86
    Senior Member Presumptuous Pepper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _eric_ View Post
    I've experienced that though. It isn't easy (but I think it's relatively much easier for me than most, I love it and I can definitely handle it. ), but it's entirely possible and very much worth it, at least to me anyways. It doesn't require a perfect world...but, in relationships, I do everything I can to make what I think is ideal into reality, and I have pretty high standards for relationships haha. Seriously, I've gotten along very well with every INFP (and ENFP as well) I've ever met, both in person and online.
    Nah, this was a general statement. My best friend is an ENFJ...i think.
    Generally I'm picky with close people but not with people in general. I try to take the best out of it and i like to feel we are comfortable with each other.
    But i see your point, it is worth it. But it takes two mostly.
    Thrills happen for awesome reasons, shit happens for shitty reason. So don't pay attention on stuff which happen for shitty reasons, but on ones which happen for awesome reasons. I'm an awesome reason.

  7. #87
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorenx7 View Post
    I have to say that is the first time in my life anyone has ever referred to me as polarizing. If you, a fellow INFP type, see it that way, then, Lord knows I must have no business at all posting on this forum. Just let me say that there is a lot more to me than just one post. In real life, for instance, I'm working on a book with an INFJ, a great friend, one of the best friends I've ever had. I did point out that there is always the exception to the rule. Nevertheless, in general, I do feel I have been treated rather badly by INFJs, and I expressed that in my post. I know it must come across as harsh, but being treated harshly myself through the years might be the reason. Nevertheless, I'll not be posting at all on this forum, and won't be coming back to lurk, either. If I have offended anyone, I sincerely apologize.
    You can't leave and not come back. Doorslamming is only for INFJs! <------attempt at humor

    Seriously, please don't leave because of this. I didn't mean for anyone to be offended. It's been said enough times that INFJs take Te bluntness the wrong way that I truly was wondering if I was being too sensitive. Your post sounded harsh to me, especially since I was included in your criticism by default (because I'm an INFJ), even though you don't know me. I wondered how the same post with J and P switched would sound to INFPs. Would it sound as harsh, or would it sound like Te bluntness?

    And PeaceBaby didn't say you were polarizing, she said that the post was too polarized to be helpful--there's a difference.

    So, I hope you reconsider.
    Johari / Nohari

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    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  8. #88
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    Possibly. However my criticism was not of your reasons for doing so, they are no doubt very different from my own and perhaps very well reasoned. My criticism was on the action itself and that basically there's nothing wrong with a bit of disruption to social harmony and the ethics of the group from time to time.
    Disrupting social harmony and group ethics just for a bit of fun, laughs, and "let's see what happens now" is a big fat waste of time, however, and just creates a lot of debris to sort through.

    But hey, I've got that awful auxiliary function, so what do I know.
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    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I find it humorous. I'm pretty sure it's exaggerated and that's how I'd take it. Would I respond to that post? Probably not, but it wouldn't upset me.
    In general, with that kind of post, I would assume that the poster has been hurt and is venting and I would mostly ignore it. However, the "I've been hurt by [insert type], so all [insert type]'s are hateful and cause all the problems in this world, even though I'll admit that there are one or two exceptions" post seems to happen often and then the discussion seems to go downhill from there, with everyone who ever had a beef with [insert type] joining in. And if [insert type] tries to refute this type of post reasonably (because sometimes there are unreasonable posts in reply), then everyone seems to dig in their heels for their respective sides, with the original post being defended by saying that the OP wasn't venting and anyone who thinks that the post was harsh is just too sensitive. So, I wanted to see what the *other side* thought about the level of harshness in the post in order to gauge whether I WAS just being too sensitive to these things.

    When this type of thing keeps happening, time after time, then maybe it's time to look at it more closely and try to work something out, because, IMO, it doesn't produce anything productive or enlightening.

    And I have no problem with people venting when they've been hurt, as long as they realize that it IS venting. Heck, I've said and thought some typist things while venting, but I don't really believe them about the whole type, so I try to keep that in mind when I post, or try to make it very clear that I'm venting and I know I'm venting. And when I do step on a whole group's toes, I expect I'll be called out for it.


    I've gone toe-to-toe with SimulatedWorld back in the day (an ENTP with a bone to pick with NFPs) about INFP flaws, and it was not wholly unproductive. Although his motive seems to be extending a back & forth debate for as long as possible (to get attention I presume, and/or because Ne-dom can be like tiresome puppy dogs), and I tired of such play eventually, I was still able to get something through to him AND acknowledge some of his points as valid (despite his purposely harsh tone & tendency to exaggerate). So I feel confident in saying I can dish i out AND take it.
    This is why it's good that we all have different strengths and weaknesses. Personally, getting into that kind of exchange seems like a waste of my time and energy, especially since I take long amounts of time to process and reply to certain things. It's good that there are people who will, since, as you said, it sometimes isn't wholly unproductive.


    A rundown list with theory quoted (like mine) would be welcome; I like an opportunity to dissect myself, including my flaws, from a semi-detached perspective. I felt couching the complaint list in generalized & theoretical terms would distance it enough to allow intellectual exploration instead of taking personal offense.
    Yes, I agree that this is a good way to approach this type of exchange.


    FYI, I think some of the issue is expectations. I think many people usually encounter the INFP e9 variety in person & they expect their kind of style from all INFPs. But note the enneagram type of the "harsher" posters in here - we're all 4w5s or at least 4s, I believe. Well, 4w5s are said to have a "harsh edge" (which is a flaw, yes), and peacemaking is not a goal so much as understanding human nature in all its hideous glory (and let's not deny the 4 & 5 INFJs are harsher also, or at least less inclined to peacemaking). So yes, you will get much more raw expression in an INFP atmosphere when the 4w5 variety abounds; it's acceptable & even preferred (IDK how the e9 INFPs cope with it).
    I'm still learning, and I have very little knowledge of enneagram, so I can't comment on what you've said. However, in regards to style, no matter whether it's harsh or kiss-ass, I think (or would hope) that most people can determine whether the goal is to learn something/communicate or to just hear one's self talking/promote an agenda.


    Once it's out there though, once you've cut through the BS, then you can really explore the heart of a matter. Everything else feels like noise to me; when people start giving out hugs & reaching an easy to swallow consensus then that's my cue to leave. How dull, how ineffectual. Did we learn anything at all? It doesn't appear we did, but we sure feel good, don't we?
    To me, this is the other side of the coin on what you said about SimulatedWorld. Where you think it's worth it to go toe-to-toe against a stubborn opponent, I would probably be willing to take the time and energy to squeeze some learning out of this type of exchange, IF there was something to be learned. Otherwise, I agree that being nice just to gloss over a subject is frustrating and ineffectual, just as being harsh for the sake of stirring up the pot is also frustrating and ineffectual.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  10. #90
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I don't want someone to consider my points valid because they like me. I can see how this works with Fe-ers though...which was a frustration I said I have.
    Yes, I hear what you're saying here. I share it since without that build up of credibility, I too can feel that my pov has less weight. So ya, I get this.

    I said e9 was the EXPECTED manner for an INFP, and so when the 4 approach is given, it throws people. Rather, the 4 approach has been devalued, because it was dismissed by some as dramatics & pot-stirring. What defense does the e9 need to give? Their manner was not questioned.
    Well, I'm not sure if e9 is the expected manner for an INFP. I suspect I present differently than most INFP's here, but I tend to think that's more about the dominance of the social instinct. SK is the only other so-dom INFP here, but I think she's a 4 like yourself. It's an interesting dichotomy with a lot of push and pull between individualism and the group.

    And ... your history here does give you credibility to the Fe crowd, but your point gets lost to many in the noise of your approach. It's a shame to be sure, but it is what it is. It gives you the choice to take a path that's more true to your nature or be a bit bendy. I do admire that you interact on your terms. And there have been times I've attempted to do that too. It does get frustrating that speaking in pure Fi speak (which you and I and other INFP's get and are comfy with) is misinterpreted and even maligned.

    Asserting "specialness" has nothing to do with my comments (and that's a rather tired dig to make at a 4).
    Ya, it's as tired as the digs at e9. You served one, I served it back.

    Can I note differences in styles without people assuming I'm holding one universally superior? I'm saying what I prefer. Perhaps it was unfair to say "we" in my sarcastic comment about learning anything, but I just don't see much evidence of it. I do see people bonding.
    It's hard for folks to do that I think. The approach from a negative vantage point implies that you hold yours in a more positive regard. And certainly, your approach has merit. It sparks a discourse that sometimes may not otherwise take place. It's just not going to resonate with a majority.

    Okay then.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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