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  1. #871
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  2. #872
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I'd like to think that her husband and/or children would not have a 70% chance of being full of shit, for starters. I tend to think if her husband was full of it 70% of the time, she'd have given him the boot a long time ago. I could be wrong, but since I absolutely 100% resonate to every word she said, I'm gonna take a chance on that.

    Well said, Cafe, well said!

  3. #873
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Preamble for Fi or Ne types ... I woke from a dream in the middle of the night last night and I saw with a clarity the differences between our outer and inner worlds. Like many of my middle of the night revelations, it was clear as a bell when I thought the thoughts in the moment. This morning, it's more like a remembered symphony but still I want to try to share it. And @Z Buck McFate & @cascadeco have said some stuff like this in the past, but something really struck me last night ...

    Now, I've got a deadline here in terms of writing this. So, it will be narrative, might be less structured and I request tolerance of that, apologizing in advance.

    Before I went to bed, I had written out the following post but not posted it:

    The best metaphor I can come up with is the sense that I am always getting my head dunked under water in the outer world.

    Someone says, "Did you do that errand?" The sense I get from that for a second is total confusion, being startled. Not unlike that feeling you get when you suddenly find your head dunked under water. So I splash back up to the surface, manage to collect my thoughts enough to ask "Did I do what?" "You know, you said you would do X this week."

    Someone else asks says, "Why did you do that?" Again ... for a few seconds it's *splash* a head dunk, I splutter back up and say, "What do you mean, what was wrong about it?" It's hard to sort out what the real question is ... and Fi doms can be very bad at hearing criticism where it's not intended.

    It's a vantage point, it's a position, and I take total ownership of my reaction, and I know I'm the only person who can depersonalize from those questions. But for the first few seconds ... the reaction is so ingrained, it's a challenge to not get the head-dunk feeling ...

    I just wish I wouldn't get head-dunked in the first place! No matter how much I ask not to be, it's especially hard for a Je dom or aux to not do it, it's like it just busts out of you guys! You don't realize the kind of impact it has.

    And it feels dangerous too sometimes, like I'm getting my head held under water just a little longer than is tolerable ...


    Maybe INFJ's feel like they're getting head-dunked in the inner world, when INFP's focus on wanting the information we find pertinent ...

    And perhaps you feel the same way about the inner world as I do about the outer world.

    Another metaphor:

    I'm not a tidy person. I am comfortable with piles of paper on my desk, messiness in general. Oh sure, I will clean it up, for a few reasons: 1.) because messiness in the outer world stresses my husband 2.) things run more smoothly when everything is in place or 3.) sometimes outer messiness adds to inner messiness and symbolically, cleaning the outer messiness helps tidy the inner world.

    Where I can't tolerate messiness is in my inner world. My inner work, with all of the emotions I feel, all of that processing every day, is tantamount to cleaning house every single day. I know that the majority of folks do not keep a tidy inner house, far from it. Some people VERY far from it. So when I work so hard to keep the inner house clean so my inner messiness does not spill out into the outer world (like most people's do) I can feel frustrated when everyone else is far more interested in keeping the outer world tidy, just a veneer of structure with chaos underneath. But I feel that's what the INFJ's are more tolerable of - that the inner world can be messy as long as the outer world is in order. To me, when the inner world is tidy, so is the outer world, at least more so, since it is messy, chaotic - uncontrollable. I can tolerate a lot of outer world messiness since I have no expectation it should be a certain way. But messing with my inner world - throwing a pile of my well-organized papers in the air, not so nice.

    So, for INFJ's protocols are important, social graces are important, because they keep the outer world managed ... chaos can't just pop up wherever.

    I manage my inner world like you manage the outer. The reliability & continuity of the outer world brings you security, minimizes your mixed messages, brings order to your inner world I think. I was noting how @Tiltyred looked at each of my posts, looking for what each one was saying, trying to manage that outer world info ... assign a motivation to it all, add a message to it all.

    Z Buck talked about throwing furniture around the room. That happens for me when intention is misread, when motivation is misread, when grand stories to explain something are created, when inferences are made ... I look to how I feel about all the inner world stuff, what emotions I sense from each person, contemplate word choices, assess sincerity of expression ... all that stuff. The outer world stuff is just messy and I can deal with the fractal nature of it not seeming to make sense.

    Eh, like most dreams trying to express it all here in the morning, in this post is difficult. Pick out any stuff that jumps out as relevant or resonant.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #874
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    At the great risk of your feeling like you're being dunked again, my first reaction to your post is great curiosity at how you would feel more comfortable being approached if someone wants to know whether or not you did indeed do the errand you had mentioned last week you intended to do.

  5. #875
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Sure - if someone said, "You know that errand we talked about last week, going to the XYZstore? Did you get a chance to do it?" then I wouldn't be lost.

    eta: it's about mentioning the topic before the action ... it's like the filing system in my mind is set up by topics, and yours by tasks ??
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #876
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Honestly, not even that -- your reaction to it is the same as mine, but having that reaction doesn't disturb me. And my having that reaction will sometimes cause the other person to smile, but it doesn't seem to hurt me going forward. It happens at work with my ISTJ. "Did you do X?" and because X is just at the moment the furthest thing from my mind, my first reaction is often "Huh?" or similar, and I have to hear the question again to give me a second to focus. This seems fairly normal to me and goes across types. If you ask anyone a direct question out of the blue, it might take them a second to redirect their attention to where it's being pointed.

    And p.s. (sorry, I'm so bad with the afterthoughts) -- a "normal" actual response would be "Yes," "No," "It's next on my To Do list," or "It slipped my mind! Thanks for the reminder."

    I may be overstepping and I apologize in advance if so, but this concern seems to indicate a desire on your part to appear in control to an extent that might not be possible for mere humans. That's my impression. I mean, I could see a reasonableness on the part of the questioner that at least some of the time you would know right off hand what they were referring to, but expecting you to always know what they're talking about immediately, especially if you are otherwise occupied when they ask you, seems like a lot to ask.

    And if somebody's giving you shit for it, they need to stop. IMO. Unless you have never done the thing you said you would, and you never know what they are talking about. But even then, there are ways to help yourself and it's not disastrous.

    Also, and I say this with the hugest respect, your inner world seems to have a lot of hot spots, some of which are maybe created by unrealistic expectations of yourself or perhaps by having been treated harshly for being human, I don't know, but I just put it out there fwiw. (And I know it's true of myself as well)

  7. #877
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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  8. #878
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    @PeaceBaby, Yes, my inner world is rather an unclear imprecise morphing mess, at times, until I have clarity and things come together. It's why as I mentioned earlier, I'm much more susceptible and distrustful of any nudgings or what I perceive as being forced to make my inner world more concrete/being 'rushed' to cement things. I don't work that way. And as for externals, I don't care so much about being prodded about schedules or external decision-points, because I naturally like the externals to be 'concluded' or organized, anyway.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

    My Photography and Watercolor Fine Art Prints!!! Cascade Colors Fine Art Prints
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  9. #879
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Srsly!

    Also, to "why did you do that?" I see "I don't know" as a perfectly valid answer. "I don't know. Why do you ask?" is particularly effective because it makes the other person answer so you have something to react to while you organize your mind to respond. At the very least, you can hear them and say No, it wasn't because of that. and then you can choose to elaborate or remain mysterious and drive them nuts wondering.

  10. #880
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    This makes me think of my ESTJ husband asking me "Why did you buy that?" - when we were first married, I thought he was looking for a list of tangibles, why it was a good value or why we needed it.

    I learned years and years ago all I had to say was, "I liked it" and that was usually a good enough answer for him!

    Now, if it was something potentially expensive, the next question might be, "How much did it cost?" THAT's a whole 'nuther discussion!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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