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  1. #861
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    ok, thank you for clarifying.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Whoever has the most "restrictions" is going to in some way define the parameters of the relationship.
    yes there's the resulting power-play, and i understand that having being on it's other side you have an experience to draw from towards approaching it with empathy (as apposed to mere sympathy). on that tone, i think we are all doing the same thing from different directions - trying to get a better grasp of what we are dealing with here, what kind of "animal" are we facing.

    but i think that in going to the generalized principle (freedom of interaction), your missing what - at least to the extent that i am identifying - the described sense of disillusionment described by the INFPs here is attributed to.

    the conversations that brought that about, describing INFP needs and INFJ needs, basically looked like a gridlock. in Fi world, to the extent that i can understand it, the answers they were being given kept to "vibe" of "my way or the highway" to the extreme of "everything has to be my way or the highway".

    that's being said, i don't think you need Fi to understand it:
    there is an apparent gridlock on a very fundamental level, where the seeds and the water are never allowed to touch.

    basically, the skeleton of the messages gotten seem to be this:
    • "no, I won't accept your thoughts because they don't fit into the conclusion I am trying to make".
    • "what you think your own intentions are is irrelevant, I am right about what you think for my own purposes".
    • "you have to understand my perspective about why all your perspectives don't matter".
    • "if what you say doesn't fit with what i want to hear, you aren't credible and i don't need to hear what you have to say".
    this gridlock seems to be on such a fundamental level, that any suggestion of accommodation after this as long as they accommodate these simple requests, it's sort of like you are saying "i would totally work with you on the garden once the seeds grow, as long as you agree to do so without water".
    it works on the Fe level, because this way you don't look bad for not being willing to grow anything and are just standing for your rights to agree on the chemical composition of the terrain, but on the Ti level, the rationality behind it breaks down completely.

    so i am trying to understand whether the skeletal messages sharing the common theme are there, or is this some sort of massive communication breakdown?

    if it is, then i am wondering whether the gridlock can be broken, and i suspect it can be. my reasoning being that it looks very much like the perfect recipe for cooking the tin man. assuming that this isn't some unavoidable fate of every INFJ, then clearly there has to be ways to break it.

  2. #862
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Misreading, I believe.

  3. #863
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    can you be more specific?

  4. #864
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I kind of view people as being autonomous and that relationships are almost entirely voluntary and entered into and terminated on an at-will basis. If one or the other of the participants does not find the relationship beneficial, they can take several actions. They can attempt to negotiate better terms, they can choose to take one for the team, or they can disengage. There might be others, but that's what I can think of off the top of my head.

    Both people have expected terms, usually not explicit and sometimes incompatible and/or misunderstood by the other party. If the terms cannot be successfully navigated, the relationship is minimized to the maximum possible level if not terminated.

    Personally, I'm only willing to negotiate to a point and under certain circumstances. I think the reason is because I am a pretty linear thinker and maybe it's the J thing, I don't know. I'm forty-two years old, so my life is probably nearly half over. I have a husband, four kids, two brothers, and two parents, one of whom I am probably going to end up caring for to some degree within ten or fifteen years.

    My time, energy, and resources are finite and therefore precious to me and I am just about as happy as a pig in slop just sitting around reading a book and drinking tea. Interactions with most people do not often make me as happy as a pig in slop. Other than my family and a few close friends, the interactions have to compete with reading a book in terms of return on investment. That's a pretty high bar. So I'm going to be pretty quick to walk away from the table, at least at this point in my life. Things may well be different in twenty or thirty years when my husband and mother may be dead and my children will be enmeshed in their own lives.

    So that makes the terms I dictate pretty . . . draconian? But I don't have a problem with other folks waking away from the table if they don't like my terms. I expect them to do exactly that. Sometimes it makes me sad and hurts my feelings, but I respect their right to do what they feel is right for them. Things don't always work out, but there really are seven billion people on the planet and I'm not so much of a special little snowflake that I can't be replaced under most circumstances.

    INFJs are squishy in some ways, but I get the impression that we are also often highly pragmatic and prize efficiency especially when it comes to relationships. The older we get, the more likely we are to withhold the benefit of the doubt because we've just seen, heard, and smelled too many damn ducks not to trust our judgement when we see something waddling our way. Sometimes that means that we will think something is a duck when it's totally not a duck, but frankly, waiting around until we're sure is just not worth the effort. There are just things we'd rather be doing. Like reading a book or poking ourselves in the eye with sticks.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #865
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    So that makes the terms I dictate pretty . . . draconian?
    that depends what they are. is in this in the context of the 4 terms (or possible misunderstandings) i wrote in the post above?

    as in this:
    • "no, I won't accept your thoughts because they don't fit into the conclusion I am trying to make".
    • "what you think your own intentions are is irrelevant, I am right about what you think for my own purposes".
    • "you have to understand my perspective about why all your perspectives don't matter".
    • "if what you say doesn't fit with what i want to hear, you aren't credible and i don't need to hear what you have to say".
    ?

  6. #866
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    that depends what they are. is in this in the context of the 4 terms (or possible misunderstandings) i wrote in the post above?
    Well, lemme see. It probably depends on how you look at it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    basically, the skeleton of the messages gotten seem to be this:
    "no, I won't accept your thoughts because they don't fit into the conclusion I am trying to make".
    I will listen to your thoughts up to a point if I believe doing so is constructive. I may or may not agree with your conclusions, especially if they are in an area that is subjective. I mean, I will accept that they are your thoughts and you have a right to think them, but they may or may not influence me in any way.
    "what you think your own intentions are is irrelevant, I am right about what you think for my own purposes".
    If it appears to me that your stated intentions are not confirmed by your actions as I have observed them, I reserve the right to believe you are full of shit. I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time, but seriously, I could be reading a book right now.
    "you have to understand my perspective about why all your perspectives don't matter".
    If we're going to do this, we should probably try to understand each other's perspectives. Just because I listen to your perspective does not mean I am obligated in any way to change my perspective. And I might decide not to listen to your perspective for a handful of reasons, including but not limited to my believing you are a dick.
    "if what you say doesn't fit with what i want to hear, you aren't credible and i don't need to hear what you have to say".
    You can be perfectly credible and say stuff I don't want to hear. But do I have a good reason to endure hearing things from you that I don't want to hear? Because there are easier ways to experience unpleasantness than listening to you. Like poking myself in the eye with a stick. You have to be more useful than poking myself in the eye with a stick if you want me to listen to you. That's your competition.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #867
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    huh, sorry; i thought you might have being referring to your "draconian terms" in the context of the few posts above the one you made. misunderstood that. though thumbs up for them not applying.

    regarding one thing, that initially i thought you where making a point in good humor regarding such situations in general and had a good laugh, but then i considered whether your serious given the repetitiveness of that theme in this thread, i might as well ask:
    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    but seriously, I could be reading a book right now.
    how could i possibly be preventing you from doing so? how your choice to write a post rather then read a book can be considered as anything other then your own choice?

  8. #868
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Well, lemme see. It probably depends on how you look at it.

    "no, I won't accept your thoughts because they don't fit into the conclusion I am trying to make".
    I will listen to your thoughts up to a point if I believe doing so is constructive. I may or may not agree with your conclusions, especially if they are in an area that is subjective. I mean, I will accept that they are your thoughts and you have a right to think them, but they may or may not influence me in any way.
    "what you think your own intentions are is irrelevant, I am right about what you think for my own purposes".
    If it appears to me that your stated intentions are not confirmed by your actions as I have observed them, I reserve the right to believe you are full of shit. I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time, but seriously, I could be reading a book right now.
    "you have to understand my perspective about why all your perspectives don't matter".
    If we're going to do this, we should probably try to understand each other's perspectives. Just because I listen to your perspective does not mean I am obligated in any way to change my perspective. And I might decide not to listen to your perspective for a handful of reasons, including but not limited to my believing you are a dick.
    "if what you say doesn't fit with what i want to hear, you aren't credible and i don't need to hear what you have to say".
    You can be perfectly credible and say stuff I don't want to hear. But do I have a good reason to endure hearing things from you that I don't want to hear? Because there are easier ways to experience unpleasantness than listening to you. Like poking myself in the eye with a stick. You have to be more useful than poking myself in the eye with a stick if you want me to listen to you. That's your competition.
    100%

    Sometimes it's not worth the time or emotional expenditure to sit there, debating ad infinitem.
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

  9. #869
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    huh, sorry; i thought you might have being referring to your "draconian terms" in the context of the few posts above the one you made. misunderstood that. though thumbs up for them not applying.

    regarding one thing, that initially i thought you where making a point in good humor regarding such situations in general and had a good laugh, but then i considered whether your serious given the repetitiveness of that theme in this thread, i might as well ask:

    how could i possibly be preventing you from doing so? how your choice to write a post rather then read a book can be considered as anything other then your own choice?
    I was not speaking to you personally in that instance. It was hypothetical like everything else in that post.

    My point there is that if by my perception, I think there is at least a 70% chance that someone is full of shit, I'm probably not going to wait around to gather more information. I don't need to know with 100% certainty. The 30% odds of possibly missing out on something good generally do not exceed the 80%+ odds I have of gaining pleasure from reading a book. That is roughly the level of risk/benefit I'm comfortable with in that setting.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #870
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I was not speaking to you personally in that instance. It was hypothetical like everything else in that post.
    thought so - just me being a bit NeFe.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    My point there is that if by my perception, I think there is at least a 70% chance that someone is full of shit, I'm probably not going to wait around to gather more information. I don't need to know with 100% certainty. The 30% odds of possibly missing out on something good generally do not exceed the 80%+ odds I have of gaining pleasure from reading a book. That is roughly the level of risk/benefit I'm comfortable with in that setting.
    though if i might ask - and feel free to tell me to shove it off if it's too personal - how would those situations change when it is your husband and children?

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