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  1. #841
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    This is how it would go between 2 INFJs.

    INFJ: Well, I don't know. All I can do is guess from the few clues you've given me where it might be. I suppose it could be under that large palm tree way over there.
    INFJ: WRONG! STUPID! You don't know anything. It's actually 3 feet to the left of that.
    INFJ: DOH! So it is!


    Hurray, @SubtleFighter! Good for you, for coming out and saying your piece.

  2. #842
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    For the most part, I find that it's trial and error. The main thing we can do is make the trial and error piece be less painful and take less time. I had a post here a week or so back in this thread that went into lots of detail on this. The main thing is to learn how to "hear" the opposite perspective, and to answer it in its own terms. For INFJs, this means not stating things declaratively, and be more explicit about your internal reasoning. For INFPs, this means developing a thicker skin and learning to state things more declaratively.
    To me, it's not about 'trial and error'. The body count gets too high for that to be considered effective, especially day to day; it will only work with more 'enlightened' parties, and even then ...

    An INFP has to first choose to adhere to the INFJ rules of engagement. If that doesn't happen, practically nothing is going to happen. You could say sure, people have stuck around in here regardless, but it's been 700 posts at least since the contention around OA's list, and still we're in here dancing around, sorting it all out. Speaking of dancing, there's something in that as a metaphor ... someone's gotta lead, someone's gotta follow, regardless of the pleasure for both parties...

    I suppose that what an INFP needs then to realize is that by choosing to let the INFJ lead, it enables the INFP to drive.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #843
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Even when that's the case, there's still something. I mean, even if they have no goal, then that in itself informs how I interact with them. It usually is still centred around sharing something, understanding someone better, feeling in need of company, or any variety of other things.
    Thanks for the clarity.

    From my INFP vantage point, I guess I see any outcomes more as a byproduct of our interaction ... I went over to you perhaps because I saw you looked lonely and I envisioned that I might cheer you. If it works, then I see it as a fortunate result, but the outcome of my desire and approach is not certain. Therefore I set no expectation of result, although I do of course wish for the outcome to be more positive than negative.

    eta: if it went wrong, I would say to myself, "Well, that was a fail" ... but I wouldn't automatically think I was in the wrong as to why things didn't go smoothy. I'd probably replay it my head a lot, to try to figure out that "why". And kick myself if I thought I said something stupid in hindsight that may have offended inadvertently... But I see it as a combination of elements, some of which I have no control over.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #844
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Ji "goals" tend to be much more broad and general than Je goals, and this is especially so for a Ji dom. Just the same way that "Ni" is simply what you automatically do without thinking about it, so Fi is for PB. Having a goal, a purpose, for everything is just how Ni is wired. Fi is more about a state of being, and if you try to turn it into a singular Ni-style cause, you either end up being totally wrong, or you learn (fairly truthfully) that it's a never-ending fractal pattern of multiple causes and effects. Fi takes an overall reading of what things are, which enables handling the vast multiplicity efficiently, but it renders the question of "goal" almost meaningless. This is how Fi "building blocks" work.
    I can align with this. I like it.

    The Ni / Ne apple analogy leaves a bit of an off-taste though, I have to think about that more. It seems colored with your Ni. It's resonating a lot with the INFJ's in here too, so it could be skewed. Of course, it's wonderful to have you as the Ni interlocutor, and I often feel you capture the Fi essence, but Ne-Si, not so much. At least for me.

    The analogy applies to the INFJ/INFP interaction, in that there is only a small area of understanding in common, and huge areas of mastery where the other type cannot (easily) see. If the INFP only sees the INFJ being an arrogant ass who needs to be right all the time, and the INFJ only sees the INFP as being whiny and emotionally manipulative, then that's being like the blind experts, certain of their own mastery, while denying the mastery of others.
    But I can sense it .. I can feel the potential for interaction, what I can gain from the Ni dom, that particular mastery. I have wanted to positively interact with Ni doms ... as long as I can think back.

    So why can't they sense mine? I know they don't, and it seems likely they can't, but why?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #845
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    FWIW, Uumlau hit the nail square on the head for me in the apple thing, but as describes someone I work closely with. He does this all the time and sometimes it nearly brings me to tears. "I choose the red apple." "It's not entirely red; it's got yellow in it too and it's white on the inside." My internal reaction sometimes is "Why do you argue and nitpick everything I say?!? Even the most insignificant statement!" and Uumlau is saying because that's just what they do. That he could describe it so perfectly was highly reassuring to me. All of a sudden the whole interaction fell into place for me.

    Peacebaby, if something that I initiate goes wrong, I think it's my fault. So it's interesting to me that you would not see yourself to blame in your example. (just an observation, fwiw)

    Did you have a rejecting INFJ parent or something?

  6. #846
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Peacebaby, if something that I initiate goes wrong, I think it's my fault. So it's interesting to me that you would not see yourself to blame in your example. (just an observation, fwiw)
    But, I would probably blame myself upon examination, even whilst saying rationally that I couldn't control everything, couldn't have predicted an outcome ... I don't know how that's different, but somehow it is ... I can't quite put my fingers on it!

    Did you have a rejecting INFJ parent or something?
    No, but I have an ISTJ father and ISFJ mother. To me, Fe and Te are a challenge, in that I can feel constantly ordered about by them both, trying to please both.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #847
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    But, I would probably blame myself upon examination, even whilst saying rationally that I couldn't control everything, couldn't have predicted an outcome ... I don't know how that's different, but somehow it is ... I can't quite put my fingers on it!



    No, but I have an ISTJ father and ISFJ mother. To me, Fe and Te are a challenge, in that I can feel constantly ordered about by them both, trying to please both.
    Now it seems to me like we're getting somewhere.

  8. #848
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Now it seems to me like we're getting somewhere.
    kk I'll play ... where are we going? I'll let you drive for a bit.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #849
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Maybe this explains your attachment to this theme. You're working out something unresolved with a parent. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense to me. This sort of yearning quality, the frustration, and the feeling that someone is bossing you around, making rules, etc., sort of not interacting fully as an adult or feeling more like a child. I was reading back through some of your stuff and you've been on this subject for at least 3 years now and it doesn't get resolved. To me, that indicates something deeper's going on, and I'm not going to be able to fix it. I would if I could.

  10. #850
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Perhaps.

    No worries on that, I'm doing my due diligence, emotionally there's no evading such work as an Fi-dom. Interesting to me that there's always work to be done.

    It fuels this deep need I have to understand, to really 'get it' and simultaneously, be 'heard'. There's this energy transaction that goes on where I want to feel equity, that I'm getting back at least as much as I am giving out. To feel that flow. So my desire is to take ownership of that, but within the boundary of reasonable expectation. I know what I feel the limitations are, I just need more evidence that proves better what they actually are. And why. And the answer to the 'why' can be very peace-inducing.

    So, in these threads, as either a full participant or attempted mediator / interlocutor, keeping the dialogue going is the best bet to find the key, the missing pieces, the 'aha' stuff. At least, that's what I'm motivated by. I don't know what I'll find, but I feel like I will find something. Something of value to apply to my whole life. And maybe I can help all of us along the way too.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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