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  1. #801
    From the Undertow CuriousFeeling's Avatar
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    Just as a friendly reminder, please keep conversations in this thread related to the topic at hand and keep it constructive and civil.
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    Johari/Nohari

    “Thoughts are the shadows of our feelings -- always darker, emptier and simpler.”
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  2. #802
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    @Mane I think you had some great points but please tread carefully with your tone. I really don't want my words to start an all out character assassination of INFJs. What I said was probably harsh enough as it was.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    These are Ni issues.
    Yes, I realise that they are more generally present in Ni doms. I think there is a Fe spin on it though (which I couldn't define) that makes it slightly different.

    Ni/Se can look circular to Ne/Si, while Ne/Si looks tautological. These are the most difficult issues to address, because the entire basis of perceiving issues is different. This is where both sides need to express patience and listen.
    Interesting, I never thought of Ni-Se in general appearing circular. Tautological is a new word to me but I see what you're getting at. In a way, Ne-Si is more of a spiral - we circle an indirectly perceived truth/principle (Ti/Fi), getting just a little closer each time. The idea is to get as close as possible to that core and perhaps fully grasp it (if that's in fact possible). I can see why this would irritate Ni-Se because it seems like time wasting, when we could just make a direct leap. I grasp Truths through refining and distilling ideas, whereas the INFJs seem to grasp it through revelation (?). I don't really have "Aha moments" like Ni-users. My version of it is simply a sudden swing in the spiral towards the core Truth - it doesn't solve all the issues involved, it just clarifies things a little and gets me a little closer.

    Fe issues. The main difference between Fe and Fi is object vs subject. When dealing with the object, there is only object to be shared in common, so the notion of everyone having their own object, or everyone legitimately seeing the object differently is nonsense. In the case of the subject, each has their own, so the notion of multiple points of view is self-evident. I believe this is an easier barrier to cross, though it's more touchy than the Te/Ti version, especially if participants are easily offended.
    What do you mean by this? Can you elaborate?

    Personally, I find this to be the most difficult issue for me with INFJs. When they start trying to "out-logic" me, it makes my head hurt. Basically, they do an "Ni-twist" of perspective, and then "prove" that you're wrong in that perspective - which is why I initially read this as an Ni thing, but the Ti nitpickiness is more prevalent. The Ni-twist is just a one-time thing, and probably way more visible to me than to xNFPs. I try to point out that they simply chose axioms that are consistent with their point(s), and thus didn't prove anything, but that really never goes anywhere. After all, how do you tell someone who sincerely believes he/she is being logical that they aren't even close to being logical, and still maintain a civil conversation? In this case, I find myself having to remind the INFJ that we should be debating which axioms are correct, not whether the INFJ's axioms "disprove" my statements.

    (This isn't to say that INFJs aren't logical as a rule, but rather that when they're illogical, it has particular traits like this, namely the Ni-twist of axioms, and then peppering with Ti-deconstructive "disproofs" of others' points. INTJs and INTPs can also be illogical, but it doesn't look like this. )
    Interesting. Yes, I think I have vaguely had a sense of that going on beneath, but I do imagine a Ni and Te user would recognise it better. This is in part what I meant about the circularity defence. It seems like when they feel under threat, there can be a walling up and they simply work with what data they have already imbibed. It's like they sense a siege is coming and (real) progress is halted. They close the drawbridge to the castle and then work with what resources they have stored up to defend themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I actually cop to every one of SK's points. It's true I often think FiNe is wrong and am dismissive. It's true I think they're wrong because they're wrong. All the rest of it: true. Yes, this makes me infuriating and hard to live with.
    Thank you for your honesty.

    I admit I am surprised that you would particularly address point 4 and admit to it outright (not that I thought you were particularly guilty of it or anything). I just thought this wasn't a point that would be talked about much, and that it was a less common issue among INFJs compared with some of the other ones. I also imagined that if it was done by a INFJ, that it would be done quite unconsciously and therefore would be hard to recognise within yourself.

    (It doesn't make FiNe right, though.)
    Absolutely not. I hope I didn't suggest that I believed that. You are well within your rights to question Fi-Ne ideas/conclusions, I just hope you will consider them too.

    It is perhaps an accurate portrait of what we're like when we're near the end of our rope with having to explain everything all the time to somebody who doesn't get it. How's that for arrogant? Not trying to be provocative, that's just what I experience. The person who I believe doesn't get it is also thinking the same about me -- that I don't get it. But time after time, I'm proven right. And time is what it takes. Arguing doesn't help.
    Oh, I very much realise that these issues aren't much of a problem outside of tense/stressful/argumentative situations. On a day to day basis, these are probably very minor, background issues - that is, unless they're a particularly unhealthy INFJ.

    About seeming arrogant -- The trick to being seen as mostly right is to know what you're talking about before you talk. I think INFJ usually doesn't talk unless they feel quite sure know what they're talking about.
    Fair enough.

    Perhaps. INFP will talk endlessly about stuff they really have no idea of, and only find out what they really think at the end of the talk. Maybe it's not so much that we disagree with whatever conclusion you finally come to. Maybe we just don't understand the having to listen to you process.
    I can see that. The thing is, in such situations the INFPs do have an idea about things - it's just so vague and intangible or almost in another language entirely. Part of the Fi-Ne waffle is attempt to translate an impression of things into 'human' language. Other times, it is the spiral process. I realise this can be frustrating, but it is important to recognise the worth in it. I sometimes get the impression that the INFJs see it as taking the long way round to get to what they knew immediately (hence the appearance of arrogance). The point is, that lengthy process can reveal totally new and different things than the Ni-Fe conclusion, so it's not just a waste of time.

    P.S. Yes, I find it very hard to accept inconvenient truths. I am an idealist. I very much want to believe that if I throw my entire will into achieving the ideal, it is achievable. I believe somewhere inside me that if I just had pure enough, good enough energy and the right technique, I could make something perfect happen. The more you draw attention to how much that's not going to happen because of xyz, the more I want you to shut up so I can focus. I confess to this for myself.
    Makes sense. I realise Fi-Ne can sound like a bunch of negative, party poopers. This comes back to the tendency to react more to the negative (eg. disagreeing) than the positive.

    BS-ing FiNe insights -- that we act like they don't exist -- it's not that they don't exist. It's that they don't matter. That it's a waste of energy to land there and fixate on that point, because it takes you nowhere. This is my experience of it. (when there is conflict -- not all the time) (example deleted)
    ...in your opinion. I disagree.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  3. #803
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Being painfully honest, PB, I see you as desperately wanting to be liked. I feel you wanting attention and approval more than anything. I feel that a lot with INFP -- that it wants approval more than anything else. Ok -- taking that a step further, and I'm walking on thin ice, I know, but wth, I can swim -- needing approval a priori puts you one down. Do you see that? If you're waiting for me to see you as equal, you've already put yourself one down to me.
    Hmmm. Could you explain what you're getting at here? I fear replying without some elaboration.

    I'm glad to see you being direct, though. It helps.

    Also -- again, I'm cringing because this is brutally honest -- I'm not in the least interested in seeing things as you do. It's not adaptive for me. Just as you find my process objectionable and not adaptive for you -- you prefer your own process.
    Is this because putting yourself in others' shoes too much pollutes your process, making it harder for your perception to function effectively?

    Sometimes you ask process questions, though, and instead of it being about the process, i.e., where did I go wrong, it seems like you don't really want to hear where you went wrong. You want to hear where you were misjudged in your intent. Or where you understandably didn't adequately process the information that was given to you. Or, in general, that you are ok. That's a different question than "What did i do wrong?" Your question (it seems to me) turns out to actually be "Why did I not experience validation?"
    Interesting that you see it that way. This is very meta INFP issue territory so I'm not sure how well I can explain or understand this - in other words I'm still processing so I might not get this totally spot on.

    You're right, we don't like to ask "where did I go wrong?" - well I don't anyway. To me that's a Fe question; something you guys say when you're trying to work through Judging issues externally. I don't look down on that question or people who ask it, I just don't tend to ask it myself. That is not to say that I never consider that I might be wrong; I just think that perhaps it's difficult for me to totally submit to another person's perspective and have complete faith that they'll guide me in the right direction. I'm more than willing to listen to their perspectives, advice and arguments, then input that data into my Si and consider whether it's useful/applicable/whatever, but I struggle to put myself in their hands. It feels a lot like handing over the steering wheel to another person, and that's scary for me. I don't mind having people suggest where I should drive but I don't want to be told and I want to be the one in the drivers seat. This may sound weird and controlling, but in my mind, if I let go of the wheel the car will crash; I have this strange child-like sense that if I'm not driving the car, no one is. And while I know that the other person is competent enough to drive, in my heart I struggle to believe it. I suppose to Fe, it looks like a form of arrogance (no one else can be trusted to drive - which implies to you that I think I'm the best driver - yes?), but really it's fear of losing authority over my own mind. It's not that I necessarily think Fe is trying to control me; I just worry about the helpless and unknown path of being a passenger.

    Does this make any sense? Is it even what you're talking about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Ok, yes, Standuble, that's exactly what I see as well. "I am an SO and an INFP and I therefore have standing to believe I am good with people, so why did this interaction not go well?" with the intended meaning actually being "My ego is hurt. Please tell me that I did it right and this person just responded badly."

    and this is what INFJ means as white noise. What you ask for is not really what you want. Believe it or not, if we know what you want, we will likely be very happy to give it to you on a platter with a complimentary glass of champagne. But if we think you're trying to trick it out of us, we balk. Or if we receive the impression you want ego strokes when you say you want to have an intellectual discussion about a point. This to us is a mixed message, and we'll usually go for the objective part of it and "attack" the behavior, because that's the observable part of it. To which INFP objects "but I meant ...." and we'll say "but you said ..." and then after a few rounds of this, we want you to stop talking, because we're not getting the meaning out of what you say -- the words are all in the way.

    It goes the other way 'round, too. INFJ says "Stop doing x thing. It's driving me crazy." INFP hears "Something about x drives her crazy. I'm pretty sure she doesn't mean literally x thing, because I didn't intend any harm by x thing," and keeps on doing x until INFJ explodes in a rage, whereupon INFP retreats in confusion. It's only after repeated requests from INFJ, "Please no more X thing, and when I say X thing, I mean exactly X thing" that INFP finally gets that X thing = no good in INFJ land. Whereupon INFJ is accused of being judgmental, harsh, etc.

    Dunno, that's what I see.
    I want to reply in depth to this but I think it might relate in part to what I said above. It would help if this argument was restated with that in mind (if I'm on the right track). Sorry, I'm trying to piece this together.

    I don't think ego is involved (not significantly, anyway). I think it is that INFP response to the negative (ie. things aren't gelling right) and needing to shift that closer to the positive (eg. clarity or agreement). Believe it or not, disharmony bothers us as a concept, not because we need to be humoured and told everything is OK.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  4. #804
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    That was as clear as I know how to be. I don't know how to explain it more.

  5. #805
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    You're right, we don't like to ask "where did I go wrong?" - well I don't anyway. To me that's a Fe question; something you guys say when you're trying to work through Judging issues externally. I don't look down on that question or people who ask it, I just don't tend to ask it myself. That is not to say that I never consider that I might be wrong; I just think that perhaps it's difficult for me to totally submit to another person's perspective and have complete faith that they'll guide me in the right direction. I'm more than willing to listen to their perspectives, advice and arguments, then input that data into my Si and consider whether it's useful/applicable/whatever, but I struggle to put myself in their hands. It feels a lot like handing over the steering wheel to another person, and that's scary for me. I don't mind having people suggest where I should drive but I don't want to be told and I want to be the one in the drivers seat. This may sound weird and controlling, but in my mind, if I let go of the wheel the car will crash; I have this strange child-like sense that if I'm not driving the car, no one is. And while I know that the other person is competent enough to drive, in my heart I struggle to believe it. I suppose to Fe, it looks like a form of arrogance (no one else can be trusted to drive - which implies to you that I think I'm the best driver - yes?), but really it's fear of losing authority over my own mind. It's not that I necessarily think Fe is trying to control me; I just worry about the helpless and unknown path of being a passenger.
    Fascinatingly, this is exactly how @fidelia reacted to this metaphor when I once asked if she would let go of the wheel for a bit.

    There are a lot of similarities I've noted in this thread, just in a different purview for each type. Very interesting stuff.

    Believe it or not, disharmony bothers us as a concept, not because we need to be humoured and told everything is OK.
    Agreed.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #806
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    ...in your opinion. I disagree.
    And from my vantage point Tilty's saying she doesn't mind if you agree or not.

    She's ok not understanding your pov or the INFP pov in general.

    Can we be ok with that? Can we accept that?

    What I am hearing is that if INFJ's understand what we need, they would be happy to provide that - under reasonable conditions that we approach from the perspective they feel is the most indicative of goodwill. That's about as good as this is going to get I think. The Fi position is just not one that INFJ's are wired to see, appreciate, or 'get' very easily. And that's ok. I can be ok with that.

    The question "INFP's, what do INFJ's do that drives you nuts" - the answer - "You choose to dictate the terms of our interaction." So, the question ultimately comes down to choice - do we choose to interact or not?

    choice.jpg
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #807
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Although this thread's topic has morphed more than the models in the end of the Michael Jackson "Black or White" video, some recent posts have been moved to OT posts. There have been two previous in-thread warnings to mind the level of civility in here. This makes three. Please, don't disregard these warnings. Typically we would close the thread or start banning people from the thread if the first warning was not heeded, but I think this thread has had some of the best discussion on the forum right now and for the most part, the lows haven't been that low (in terms of violating the forum's actual guidelines, that is- they have definitely stirred up some powerful negative feelings, but stirring up powerful negative feelings is not against the rules here).

    This is the last in-thread warning that will be posted. If you have no chance of engaging constructively with a certain poster, just don't engage with that poster, especially if you have been specifically asked not to by a mod or admin. There is no "but I was really mad!" exception to the forum's rules about insults and personal attacks.

  8. #808
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Fascinatingly, this is exactly how fidelia reacted to this metaphor when I once asked if she would let go of the wheel for a bit.

    There are a lot of similarities I've noted in this thread, just in a different purview for each type. Very interesting stuff.
    Maybe there's a Ni version of my Fi reaction. Like what I said about INFJs struggling to put themselves in other people's shoes because it pollutes their thinking process - perhaps?
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  9. #809
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    And from my vantage point Tilty's saying she doesn't mind if you agree or not.

    She's ok not understanding your pov or the INFP pov in general.

    Can we be ok with that? Can we accept that?

    What I am hearing is that if INFJ's understand what we need, they would be happy to provide, under conditions that we approach from the perspective they feel is the most indicative of goodwill. That's about as good as this is going to get I think. The Fi position is just not one that INFJ's are wired to see, appreciate, or 'get' very easily. And that's ok. I can be ok with that.

    The question "INFP's, what do INFJ's do that drives you nuts" - the answer - "You choose to dictate the terms of our interaction." So, the question ultimately comes down to choice - do we choose to interact or not?

    choice.jpg
    I don't know. It's pretty hard to accept.

    I tend to expect a lot of people out there will dismiss my thoughts/feelings/ideas as dull, insignificant or just plain nonsense. I suppose I kind of hold out that a INFJ, being fundamentally similar and pretty empathetic, would at least try to understand. Too often I feel like the INFPs are viewed in MBTI circles as the INFJs' poor cousin, or idiot brother. The fact that the INFJs, being one of the types in a better position to understand us, would feel that way too, is pretty shattering.

    Again with the disillusionment...
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  10. #810
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I don't know. It's pretty hard to accept.
    I know.

    I tend to expect a lot of people out there will dismiss my thoughts/feelings/ideas as dull, insignificant or just plain nonsense. I suppose I kind of hold out that a INFJ, being fundamentally similar and pretty empathetic, would at least try to understand. Too often I feel like the INFPs are viewed in MBTI circles as the INFJs' poor cousin, or idiot brother. The fact that the INFJs, being one of the types in a better position to understand us, would feel that way too, is pretty shattering.
    I know, I get the feeling like it should 'work out' too. Probably one-to-one is simply the best answer. Some of this stuff remains unsaid, but the connection and affection can still be of great value in our lives.

    Again with the disillusionment...
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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