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  1. #791
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    And your analysis should be taken straight, with no salt
    nope, that's the beauty in sharing how you reached a conclusion - nobody has to take anything straight or salt free, the thought process is naked, out in the open and welcoming for anyone to have it's way with it, see the foundation and the connections, point out any errors of judgement along the way, find the axioms you disagree with, examine the variables from various angles, find any missing variables that can be related to the variables i did see. and if i accidently left a garment on, which does happen - my translation from what is mostly visual thinking is far from perfect - there's always an openness to questioning, because in doing so you would be helping me reach a better conclusion.
    sometimes the error you'll point out is some fallacy that i then realize to be really obvious and you can join me as i have a good laugh at my own expense, other times i'll see axioms in your counter argument that i'll want to explore before combining, sometimes i find an assumption that i didn't realize i was making. other times i will find that the counter argument works verbally but not in the mental schema, and see if i can better translate it.

    the reason being that the best strategy so far for finding if your assertion is true is to make it as easily as possible to disprove when it isn't. the more vulnerable it is to disproved and the more opportunities it has to do so, the more confident i can be about it when that doesn't happen.

  2. #792
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    The fact that you can point out holes in my reasoning does not mean that my conclusion is wrong, so a lot of what you do just looks like mental masturbation to me.

  3. #793
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Your candor is appreciated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Being painfully honest, PB, I see you as desperately wanting to be liked. I feel you wanting attention and approval more than anything. I feel that a lot with INFP -- that it wants approval more than anything else. Ok -- taking that a step further, and I'm walking on thin ice, I know, but wth, I can swim -- needing approval a priori puts you one down. Do you see that? If you're waiting for me to see you as equal, you've already put yourself one down to me.
    I certainly don't want to alienate anyone in this conversation; I do want to be likable, in this venue, on this topic. I'll 'cop' to that. If I was desperately wanting to be liked in general though, there are certainly far better threads to be participating in than this one!

    That's a different question than "What did i do wrong?"
    Hmm, well, it is a different question to me. I didn't want my ego stroked, or to be validated that I am a good person. That kind of validation is relatively meaningless to me. I already knew I did 'wrong' - I shared that story to say, "Hey, I generally do a good job meeting the needs of the people around me. But look, here's how I sucked! I don't know 100% why, so I don't understand the minutiae here, but I learned that this approach may not work best for INFJ's."

    "Help me understand why" is the unspoken question. If the INFJ answer is, "Well, she is going through a divorce, and most INFJ's will find it difficult to concentrate with that kind of emotional white noise in their life. So, while processing any kind of unpleasantness, especially if it tends to affect their overall performance in other areas they'll really appreciate others who silently 'get' this, cut them a little slack, and believe that with a little support they'll be back to their normal selves in due time..." hey, I can TOTALLY accept that answer.

    It's not the approach I would want or need, but hey, I will try to give you what you need too. But I won't presume to know it. I'm not a mind-reader, and I won't pretend to be, even if I think my guess might be 70 or 80% right. That percentage is not enough. Maybe it's enough for Te and Fe, but not for me. I'm not as confident in a one-size approach because for one thing, the Fe guidelines are not as obvious to me to begin with. I already get lots of Fi signs from Fi people that are kind of in opposition to Fe, so what can I say?

    So, I customize interactions to the individual. Not to a wider context. My first guess might be off. Over time, I can tailor it. The part I guess that bugs me somewhat is during this 'tailoring' process, an INFJ will think, "Hey, we are not so aligned after all, they don't just 'get' me therefore this person does not fit into the framework of my life." I know that's a right you have, to make that choice, it's just usually never articulated, so the recipient doesn't know the 'why' of the distancing. I would say this has happened to me with one INFJ? One can just feel that process. It feels cold. I want to understand it better. And I think I do now, thanks to this thread.

    Your question (it seems to me) turns out to actually be "Why did I not experience validation?"
    I look inside for validation, not outside, so the ego-stroke isn't invested in the outer interaction itself. It's invested in me doing what I think is the right thing to do, approach a friend in need. Sure, the result matters too though, very much to me, hence the interest in approaching in the most advantageous manner possible.

    So maybe that's the lesson for INFJ -- you people basically see us as not very nice. To the extent we care (and I don't mean that to be flippant, I mean only to be honest), we need to do something about that. Do you think this is true, at the fundament of it all?
    Well, wasting 100 or so posts on people I don't think are "not very nice" wouldn't be very logical, would it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Also ... it's an impression I have formed over time, that those are her thought processes. Certainly I may be wrong. But I do see a lot of "pay attention to me and tell me I'm wonderful" or even just "pay attention to me" interspersed with more thoughtful posts. What else is this, for example?

    *peacebabe-ster returns to thread ..................... decides to start den renovations whilst pondering latest developments*
    *sigh* remembers that INFJ's are going to try to infer 100 different meanings from a silly post.

    This was simply a way of saying, "I am back, but am at a loss to collect my ideas in the moment. To anyone who's waiting on a reply, of which there are a couple I know of, here's my public announcement that I will try to post some thoughts soon."

    Your guess, although possible, was only conjecture. Maybe that's what you'd probably be saying if you posted that. If you wondered about my motivation, I'm curious ... why you don't just ... ask? If NFP's have a reason, they'll generally tell you.

    As for your impressions on my thought processes:

    Your interpretation of my needs is incorrect. Your interpretation of my intentions is incorrect. Your impression of me is incorrect. That's as plain as I can be about it. I guess I wish you would ask me what I need instead of projecting your own vision of that on top of me all the time.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #794
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    This was simply a way of saying, "I am back, but am at a loss to collect my ideas in the moment. To anyone who's waiting on a reply, of which there are a couple I know of, here's my public announcement that I will try to post some thoughts soon."
    I'm sure people know you are working on a post without you having to pop up and say "I'm going to have a thought! Stay tuned! As soon as I figure out what my thought is, I'm going to express it!"

    The post referred to above comes across to me as having zero content. In my mind, you have not left, so there's no need to announce that you are back, or that you are going to say something at some point. We're in a conversation, so I take that for granted.

    I think this is Ni/Ne again.

    I can understand that this might not be a good thread if your motivation is to be liked (that gave me a chuckle), but if your motivation is to be "equal," then this would be a good thread for demonstrating that you are equal, which is what I get from you.

    I see how it feels cold to you. It is cold. I think INFJ is not as feeling as INFP.

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  6. #796
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Your candor is appreciated.

    I didn't want my ego stroked, or to be validated that I am a good person. That kind of validation is relatively meaningless to me. I already knew I did 'wrong' - I shared that story to say, "Hey, I generally do a good job meeting the needs of the people around me. But look, here's how I sucked! I don't know 100% why, so I don't understand the minutiae here, but I learned that this approach may not work best for INFJ's."

    "Help me understand why" is the unspoken question. If the INFJ answer is, "Well, she is going through a divorce, and most INFJ's will find it difficult to concentrate with that kind of emotional white noise in their life. So, while processing any kind of unpleasantness, especially if it tends to affect their overall performance in other areas they'll really appreciate others who silently 'get' this, cut them a little slack, and believe that with a little support they'll be back to their normal selves in due time..." hey, I can TOTALLY accept that answer.

    It's not the approach I would want or need, but hey, I will try to give you what you need too. But I won't presume to know it. I'm not a mind-reader, and I won't pretend to be, even if I think my guess might be 70 or 80% right.
    My point to you in that interaction was that you did not have to be a mind reader, because she took the trouble to tell you that she was going through a divorce to begin with. She made it easy for you. I felt you didn't pay attention when she tried to keep you from having to feel you needed to read her mind.

    There's something here about INFJs seeing things as a continual process where INFP seems not to see it that way at all, and every single incident has to be re-explained that seems worth paying attention to. Or if you leave a thread for a few hours, you have to pop up and announce that you intend to return to it. Even after you've made statements like "Post #X to come ..."

    I apologize for completely misunderstanding you. I'm sure I do. I do feel a lot like "Am I speaking English??" as another INFJ whose name now escapes me posted earlier. I felt like it in that thread, too, and imagine your INFJ in your question also felt that way. Don't know what can be done about it.

  7. #797
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    Not quite as funny as your video, but it's my contribution to this intellectual discussion.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv-34w8kGPM


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXA7yklaANo

  8. #798
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    going on with the theme




  9. #799
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    My point to you in that interaction was that you did not have to be a mind reader, because she took the trouble to tell you that she was going through a divorce to begin with. She made it easy for you. I felt you didn't pay attention when she tried to keep you from having to feel you needed to read her mind.


    Thanks for that, good to have confirmation then.

    There's something here about INFJs seeing things as a continual process where INFP seems not to see it that way at all, and every single incident has to be re-explained that seems worth paying attention to.
    It's not that I need the incident to be re-explained, I don't think. But I agree I may not see things as a continual process, or at least not to the extent that INFJ's may. I believe this point has come up in other threads of this ilk as well, but if you were to ask me any given day, "How do you feel?" I could break it down into percentages for you of why I feel like I do today. There isn't one over-arching theme to summarize it usually - I always hold each feeling discrete from the others.

    Or if you leave a thread for a few hours, you have to pop up and announce that you intend to return to it. Even after you've made statements like "Post #X to come ..."
    Well, it has been a couple of days, and I am lagging in replying to a couple of promised thoughts too. So, that's just my way of letting folks know.

    Don't know what can be done about it.
    Me neither. But I'm working on it.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #800
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    But I agree I may not see things as a continual process, or at least not to the extent that INFJ's may.


    U2?

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