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  1. #771
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    OK so I should explain what I was getting at. It seems that I need to stay pretty frank and say all the stuff I usually don't beforehand, hoping it will clarify what my intentions and thoughts are.

    I really didn't want to have to say this stuff - I don't like pointing out people's flaws in detail. I prefer not to gripe about everything that bothers me, because I think it's usually my business to get over it, and try and say something productive. I also feared I couldn't explain it without being blunt, which would upset people or ruffle feathers. That was the last thing I wanted to do, so I avoided it. And if I sound angry, it is at the principle, not at individuals or INFJs as a group. I hope now that this functions as a giant disclaimer: basically I don't want to start an argument and I don't want to upset anyone - ie. I may not seem terribly tactful, but I mean well, so please don't yell at me and/or start a flame war

    If you want clarifications or examples, I'm perfectly happy to give them, but I'd prefer not to have to list every specific piece of evidence about what made me feel this way. I simply wanted to speak mostly in terms of general observations. This is another reason why I didn't want to say anything, because even the thought of having to justify why, in detail, made me feel exhausted. I realise in light of what we've discussed, this may sound demanding, but it's just so much mental work for me to wade through the specific details in a step by step, Ti fashion - so I'm hoping you'll give me some leeway here.

    Also, I'm hoping that the INFJs will listen to this and rethink some of the little things they do, instead of immediately going on the defensive. These are not accusations that must be denied or be subjugated to. You don't need to defend yourselves and prove you're decent people, because I can see that. I also realise that sometimes people make mistakes or upset others without meaning to. I also realise INFPs are guilty of many unpleasant things too. I'm just explaining how you sometimes come off and how it feels to be on the receiving end of that; it is my personal statement about how I feel about some of the things you say. I would really like it if you trusted my perception and accept that this area is a potential blind spot for you, and that perhaps it is something you may have missed. None of this is required in writing - I don't want you outline why you agree with me or anything horrid like that. I just need the benefit of the doubt and an open mind.

    Not all the INFJs, did all these things, at all times. Some did it initially and then stopped. Some did it now and then. Some did a few of these things, but not others. Some did nothing significantly wrong at all. I merely speak in general terms because I want to avoid pointing fingers at individuals and because I'm talking about general behavioural patterns. Regardless, I do hope all the INFJs will listen to what I say and not simply assume that they're "one of the good ones". I don't want you to feel guilty; I just want you to understand.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Basically, a lot of what OA has outlined in her list, the INFJs have done in this thread.

    It might not be in big, bold, overt ways, and it might not have deeply upset anyone, but it was going on. I wasn't consciously thinking about the list (ie. I absolutely wasn't watching you, waiting for you to trip up, or anything), but as time went on and those little meta issues were annoying me, I started to notice the trends and how they matched. I'm hoping the NFPs might back me up here, and that I'm not the only one who felt this way.

    So here are some of the things that bothered me:

    1.The assumption of correct perception.
    Few things really irritate me more than a person that assumes they're right. I don't need other people to agree with me; I just need them to admit the possibility that they are fallible. You have to watch how you word things and the little cues you give out. To other people, when you state your opinion too decisively, it sounds like you believe it is a undeniable fact (eg. "she did this"). It implies that the other person is plainly wrong; and worse than that, it often implies that others are stupid for not seeing how you are right. This appears arrogant and belittling, and really gets people's backs up - I imagine it starts and perpetuates a lot of arguments.

    2. Refusal to properly accept other possible reading(s) of a situation/issue.
    Again, it is not necessary to agree with me; it is however, very important in situations where we can only infer the truth, that you accept the possibility that there may be other explanations. There has been a lot of resistance to even allowing the chance that @OrangeAppled meant something other that what the immediate interpretation was. But surely the very fact that other people disagree, is evidence that other opinions are at least possible - but instead you dismiss their views as inaccurate (see 1.) and try to set them straight. Continuing to argue your perspective as if it is the only valid one when others offer alternatives, makes you seem like you're sticking your fingers in your ears and not listening to anything that doesn't mesh with your view. This appears arrogant, unreasonable and stubbornly contrary.

    3. Using esoteric insights as self-confirming evidence
    I'm all for Ni and the fantastic insights it provides, but we all have to admit that it isn't always easy to explain why each thing comes to you. For this reason, you must be careful in stating your insights in a way that they don't sound like objective fact. Until you can explain the reasoning behind it in a way people can understand, others will only see it as an opinion - a possible truth. This is not to say that you need to prove every feeling you get about something - I think people should listen to what you have to say and consider it regardless. Just don't pass it off as a fact that everyone can/should agree upon.

    4. BS-ing Fi+Ne insights
    There can be assumption if Ni+Fe doesn't pick it up, it doesn't exist. There are times when NFPs share insights and it is effectively dismissed as imaginary nonsense, or that they're just projecting. I sometimes get the sense that there's a belief that NFPs are just messy, emotional beings, who don't know better. This is not done overtly, but there can be some scoffing involved. This is arrogant and dismissive.

    5. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater
    Something I mentioned earlier, it's about the need to get the specifics perfectly right, so much so that if a slight error is detected an entire series of points are dismissed. It's like we're spit-balling ideas and someone starts angrily underlining the errors in red pen, and then complains there's too much red pen to read what we're saying. It appears pedantic, deliberately contrary and dismissive. It also seems to happen more when you don't like what the other person has to say. Sometimes it seems you want to find flaws so you don't have to go along with an inconvenient truth.

    6. Leaping to conclusions and expecting others to leap with you
    It's hard to discuss a matter with INFJs because they've already made so many assumptions. It feels like I'm forced into discussing your conclusions, when I never got the chance to address your premises. You expect me to not only assume your premises are correct (see 1.), but you want me to assume the premises of your premises are correct, without any proof - and then you quickly move the discussion on, denying me the right to question them. It leaves me constantly scrambling to keep up, while attempting to get my point across and forces me to drop issues that I wanted to address. Example: "a) you're a bully; b) I'm suffering because of your bullying; therefore in conclusion, c) you should apologise." And I think, what! hang on, where was a) proven so absolutely? A lot of this discussion has effectively been about the validity of c) when the NFPs are trying to discuss the issue they have with a). Every time we try to bring up a), INFJs keep forcing the discussion back to c) and complaining that we are arguing that you don't deserve an apology. You're so totally focussed on how a) and b) lead to c), that every time we question the premises, all you hear is us questioning the conclusion. The NFPs then look like terrible people who defend bullies and don't believe in apologies. This is upsetting to us and we go on to explain why this isn't so - meanwhile a) is never properly addressed.

    7. Trying to have your cake and eat it too
    OA called this playing the tyrant/victim. It's where you appear to claim both the position of victim - the innocent party, holding the moral high ground, deserving of sympathy - but then use this as a weapon to attack others with. This is very frustrating to deal with, mostly because it's leaves others feeling totally cornered by your logic (see 6). You'll make yourself the good guy in the story and think that gives you the right to guilt trip others or say some harsh stuff if you believe it's necessary. This appears to us as a play for dominance: both moral and social. You get to have it both ways, while we're totally hung out to dry.

    8. Problems are caused by other people
    Now I don't necessarily think you genuinely believe other people are always the problem. Sometimes it's the case, other times it's simply down to poor word choice. For example: "You failed to understand me" rather than "I don't think I explained myself well", or "You are being hurtful" rather than "I felt hurt by what you said". Everything is framed in terms of how the other person behaves, which implies that they are the source of the problem and that you exist in a presumed state of moral neutrality and/or perfection. It is as if it is the other person's duty to understand you and keep you happy. If this happened now and then it wouldn't be a problem but if it happens repeatedly, and particularly in conjunction with points 1. and 2. , all this together can start to sound like a symphony of arrogance, self-righteousness, and finger pointing.

    9. Circular reasoning as a defence mechanism
    This can happen to anyone but it seems that a lot of arguments with INFJs have a higher tendency to go round and round in circles. This is comes down to points 1. 2. 3. and 6 working in tandem. The assumption you are correct is so hard to break because if it's challenged you often will continue going back to self-confirming evidence. You'll keep arguing in circles before you'll back down in the smallest way and say "OK, fair point". What it looks like is someone clasping at straws, stubbornly refusing to consider other possibilities, because they can't bear to even give an inch to the other person. To use Z buck's analogy of the changing room: you grabbed a size 8 skirt to try on and when it didn't fit, you still insisted it did. The NFPs say it doesn't seem to fit and suggest a 10, but you keep saying how you're always a size 8 so it has to fit. To us, refusing to take the 10 seems like you're in total denial - that you're just sticking to your guns because you don't want to be wrong.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  2. #772
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I will not reply.
    I sincerely appreciate this and truly wish to express my heartfelt gratitude. Thank you so much. And you know, I’ll actually take full responsibility for any confusion surrounding that last post. Now you have indicated you have read all my posts. And you know, I’ll admit that based on your responses I find that extremely difficult to believe but I’ll just go ahead and take your word for that. Still, since your posts never directly respond to the issue** - like in this most recent case the issue of ‘hypocrisy’ or what appears to be some seriously hypocritical behavior on your part - I thought if I formulated my post as a comment (no question like material whatsoever) I could feel about 100% certain you would not respond. And look here you surprised me! Well, I should say ‘sorta’ surprised me since you once again completely avoided the issue. But I should not have assumed anything! I should have been more assertive and just outright said something like ‘your replies often make me feel like I’m in the twilight-zone and I would be most grateful if you do not respond.’

    But that quoted part…that is a true gift. And while I am a bit leery since you often seem to say one thing and do the other…I am going to hope you will keep your ‘word’ in this instance. Thanks so much again.

    **[Edit: Took out a few sentences here because they will make no difference.]
    There’s something especially frustrating/disturbing/troubling about hypocrisy and while I’ve tried to get at what it is exactly I find so offensive I can’t seem to fully access it and would welcome those of you that are good with words to put forth your sentiments on it.

    I find it so amazingly bizarre that an individual can speak of the virtues of (in this case) a interpersonal communication strategy, provide instruction on the various elements within the ‘method’, seem to suggest this strategy is best and should be adopted by an alternate group (does it often seem these type of suggestions are offered as charity?), full-on believe they themselves to be exemplars of the strategy put into best practice…………and then repeatedly respond to others in the exact same way they are insisting they don’t do and wish to replace via education? < --I desperately need to understand how this happens. And again, not just once…but over and over and then return and start preachin virtues to the alternates again…’as if they’ [edit: What I am interested in understanding is how the individual does not see that they are doing the same exact thing they are advising against? How are they able to believe they do what they don't do?]

    Is there a Fi connection here? Fi & Ne? I feel like I have heard others complain about their NFP friends and this crazy making behavior. I’m also wondering if there is a F dom connection? I just don’t understand and it is absolutely mind-boggling.

  3. #773
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    7. Trying to have your cake and eat it too
    OA called this playing the tyrant/victim. It's where you appear to claim both the position of victim - the innocent party, holding the moral high ground, deserving of sympathy - but then use this as a weapon to attack others with. This is very frustrating to deal with, mostly because it's leaves others feeling totally cornered by your logic (see 6). You'll make yourself the good guy in the story and think that gives you the right to guilt trip others or say some harsh stuff if you believe it's necessary. This appears to us as a play for dominance: both moral and social. You get to have it both ways, while we're totally hung out to dry.
    i find this to be a distinction between Ti>Fe and Fe>Ti, in situations when one is utterly repressing the other:

    for example, in this thread you see two claims, coming from the same people:

    1. they feel like they have being manipulated into giving the stories of remorse.
    2. they feel like they genuinely wanted to be helpful in giving the stories of remorse.

    now, in Fe world, these work together perfectly:
    you appear (to yourself) as both being genuinely helpful, and as the poor victim of tyrannical manipulation.

    in Ti world, the self contradiction is evident:
    if you were manipulated into doing so because not doing it would make you look bad, then it wasn't your own will to be helpful but your will to not look bad. you can have one or the other, but you can't have both, they simply can't coexist in the same space and time.
    this is what feels like white noise to me, it like a really noisy alarm in my head when i read those: since in each case (in multiply cases here) it is coming from the same person, in each case i am thinking of the person and am asking myself who to believe, "this you" or "that you", because in Ti world, when you contradict yourself this way, each "you" is saying that the other "you" is lying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    It also seems to happen more when you don't like what the other person has to say. Sometimes it seems you want to find flaws so you don't have to go along with an inconvenient truth.
    this to me seems to be the crux point: credibility is gained or lost by saying what you want to hear.

    the reactions to @Starry are a good example. i remembered a post in a previous "INFJ-war" (the doorslam thread? not sure) where she confessed how much she desires some lost bond with an INFJ within the participants, and with a few exceptions, that's the same participants here. objectively, that makes her more inclined to be biased, and that bias has to be accounted for. i still read what she has to say, and would take any argument on it's won merits, but i don't see her as being more likely to be objective. it's like when your mother compliments how you look - take it with a huge bucket of salt. however, being "on the side of the INFJs" and her effort in vilifying the "opposition" has given her instant credit points from their reaction to her posts. the reactions to @Skylight post follow the same pattern.

    now, this is a perfectly viable strategy when the goal is bonding, we all feel closer to people who reaffirm us because we all enjoy affirmation, we seek pleasant experiences and being reaffirmed is indeed a very pleasant experience. this is a vital part of making friends, being supportive lovers, and even salesmanship (did it for years - its one of the most essential ropes). on that level alone, there's nothing wrong with it.

    however, if one is seeking to grow by learning how they can learn and work on their own flaws, then this becomes a terrible strategy, because by nature, the people who will have the most information about how your negative aspects impact others are going to be the very others who have being impacted negatively by those aspects.

    on the objective level, it's like dismissing information about the experience of war time because it comes form someone whose being in a war (as a solider or civilian). the bias has to be taken into account, but dismissing it is the worst possible strategy to learn about the nature of war and understanding what going into a war can mean.

    or to quote the NJ way of saying it, "you are doing it wrong".

  4. #774
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    And your analysis should be taken straight, with no salt, because you are perfectly objective.

    I see.

  5. #775
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    I'm not an INFP, but I can say breading is in the top 10.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  6. #776
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    *peacebabe-ster returns to thread ..................... decides to start den renovations whilst pondering latest developments*
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #777
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    I've classified these by function
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    1.The assumption of correct perception.
    3. Using esoteric insights as self-confirming evidence
    4. BS-ing Fi+Ne insights (There can be assumption if Ni+Fe doesn't pick it up, it doesn't exist.)
    6. Leaping to conclusions and expecting others to leap with you
    9. Circular reasoning as a defence mechanism
    These are Ni issues. Ni/Se can look circular to Ne/Si, while Ne/Si looks tautological. These are the most difficult issues to address, because the entire basis of perceiving issues is different. This is where both sides need to express patience and listen.

    2. Refusal to properly accept other possible reading(s) of a situation/issue.
    7. Trying to have your cake and eat it too OA called this playing the tyrant/victim. It's where you appear to claim both the position of victim - the innocent party, holding the moral high ground, deserving of sympathy - but then use this as a weapon to attack others with.
    8. Problems are caused by other people
    Fe issues. The main difference between Fe and Fi is object vs subject. When dealing with the object, there is only object to be shared in common, so the notion of everyone having their own object, or everyone legitimately seeing the object differently is nonsense. In the case of the subject, each has their own, so the notion of multiple points of view is self-evident. I believe this is an easier barrier to cross, though it's more touchy than the Te/Ti version, especially if participants are easily offended.

    5. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater
    Something I mentioned earlier, it's about the need to get the specifics perfectly right, so much so that if a slight error is detected an entire series of points are dismissed. It's like we're spit-balling ideas and someone starts angrily underlining the errors in red pen, and then complains there's too much red pen to read what we're saying. It appears pedantic, deliberately contrary and dismissive. It also seems to happen more when you don't like what the other person has to say. Sometimes it seems you want to find flaws so you don't have to go along with an inconvenient truth.
    Ti issue.

    I was initially thinking of this as Ni, but I don't think it is. It sounds like Ti doing its usual thing of nitpicking things to death. (The Ti version of whining often comes across as nitpicking, taking another's idea, forcing it to fit into one's own presumably logical framework, and "proving" that it is untrue based on ill-defined axioms.)

    Personally, I find this to be the most difficult issue for me with INFJs. When they start trying to "out-logic" me, it makes my head hurt. Basically, they do an "Ni-twist" of perspective, and then "prove" that you're wrong in that perspective - which is why I initially read this as an Ni thing, but the Ti nitpickiness is more prevalent. The Ni-twist is just a one-time thing, and probably way more visible to me than to xNFPs. I try to point out that they simply chose axioms that are consistent with their point(s), and thus didn't prove anything, but that really never goes anywhere. After all, how do you tell someone who sincerely believes he/she is being logical that they aren't even close to being logical, and still maintain a civil conversation? In this case, I find myself having to remind the INFJ that we should be debating which axioms are correct, not whether the INFJ's axioms "disprove" my statements.

    (This isn't to say that INFJs aren't logical as a rule, but rather that when they're illogical, it has particular traits like this, namely the Ni-twist of axioms, and then peppering with Ti-deconstructive "disproofs" of others' points. INTJs and INTPs can also be illogical, but it doesn't look like this. )
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #778
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I actually cop to every one of SK's points. It's true I often think FiNe is wrong and am dismissive. It's true I think they're wrong because they're wrong. All the rest of it: true. Yes, this makes me infuriating and hard to live with. (It doesn't make FiNe right, though.) It is perhaps an accurate portrait of what we're like when we're near the end of our rope with having to explain everything all the time to somebody who doesn't get it. How's that for arrogant? Not trying to be provocative, that's just what I experience. The person who I believe doesn't get it is also thinking the same about me -- that I don't get it. But time after time, I'm proven right. And time is what it takes. Arguing doesn't help.

    About seeming arrogant -- The trick to being seen as mostly right is to know what you're talking about before you talk. I think INFJ usually doesn't talk unless they feel quite sure know what they're talking about. Perhaps. INFP will talk endlessly about stuff they really have no idea of, and only find out what they really think at the end of the talk. Maybe it's not so much that we disagree with whatever conclusion you finally come to. Maybe we just don't understand the having to listen to you process.

    P.S. Yes, I find it very hard to accept inconvenient truths. I am an idealist. I very much want to believe that if I throw my entire will into achieving the ideal, it is achievable. I believe somewhere inside me that if I just had pure enough, good enough energy and the right technique, I could make something perfect happen. The more you draw attention to how much that's not going to happen because of xyz, the more I want you to shut up so I can focus. I confess to this for myself.

    BS-ing FiNe insights -- that we act like they don't exist -- it's not that they don't exist. It's that they don't matter. That it's a waste of energy to land there and fixate on that point, because it takes you nowhere. This is my experience of it. (when there is conflict -- not all the time) (example deleted)

  9. #779
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    What a contentious thread. We've received several reports from several users, and I'm too lazy to handle them on a case-by-case basis right now.

    If you're provoking specific people, stop provoking those people. If someone has requested that you not engage them, don't engage them. If you're in a continual catfight with someone, do not be in that catfight any longer. Conversely, if you're reading personal insults into posts where there is no personal insult, stop that, too.

    I'll be more specific if I wind up having to be, though I hope that I won't have to.

    In general, just be more civil than usual. You're here to try to understand one another, for God's sake.

  10. #780
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Your post was refreshing Tilty. Thanks for your thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I actually cop to every one of SK's points. It's true I often think FiNe is wrong and am dismissive. It's true I think they're wrong because they're wrong. All the rest of it: true. Yes, this makes me infuriating and hard to live with. (It doesn't make FiNe right, though.)
    @bold: agreed. But is it your perception is that I wish to be? I do not. I don't want to be right, I simply want to be seen as equal.

    My handy shorthand for this, Fe and Te are 'right' appears validated once again. When I talk to dom's it's a given. And at least, when it's a given, you know what you need to do to change their minds, if you so desire the task. And they hear more, accept more of the push and pull, so you know it's about who's right or wrong, and you can throw as much energy as you want into that.

    Right vs wrong is a power play however. It's always been a power play. There's little equity when someone sits in that position over another, and can't see another person's viewpoint as even having validity.

    I'm still working on my series from above; it's slowly percolating through the drip filters of my mind. At the very least, maybe it will help INFP's engage INFJ's in a way that leads to a mutually beneficial interaction, rather than reaching these online impasses. And, maybe helps you see things from our vantage point too.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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