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  1. #761
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    like i said, no bridges where built where the fire would spread, and honestly there was a lot more revealing information in the reactionary behavior and conclusions they came too then in the confessions.
    I hear you.

    my current filtering problem - which i don't expect help with but might as well share for the benefit of a warning - after understanding the deeper dynamic, it's clear that the "SWAT team" doesn't represent most INFJs:

    this is the apparent dynamic of the INFJ SWAT team, one where they have being under the influence of each other in doing so for what is quite possibly years. most INFJs you'd meet - online or in real life - aren't going to have that influence, in fact they are the least likely of any type to have such an influence. as a result, the information they give and - more importantly - demonstrate, has to be filtered appropriately.
    So, clarify for me what you are saying here, I'm not sure I get it, and I want to understand before replying.

    Are you saying:

    1.) That it seems the INFJ's in what you call the "SWAT team" support each other and therefore expand the delusion that they are seeing things clearly

    or

    2.) That these INFJ's in what you call the "SWAT team" think the most alike therefore have banded together and don't really represent INFJ's at large

    or

    3.) That the information shared by the INFJ's in what you call the "SWAT team" should be challenged more because they've had the benefit of numbers to affirm their viewpoints

    Steer me in the right direction, or combine these to help me understand what you mean better.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #762
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Steer me in the right direction, or combine these to help me understand what you mean better.
    1 is the closest, but not merely in matters of Ni so much as how they appear to be reaffirming in each other Fe's repression of Ti. 3 is the derivative - i am not saying that their information isn't useful, rather, that this sociological context and it's influences over their judgement has to be taken into account.

    basically: i am looking for a way to discern the baby from the rather murky bathwater.

  3. #763
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    "filtering appropriately" = ignoring as best suits your purpose

    Also, there is no "team," there was no "banding together." There are people of the same type who came to the same conclusions independently of one another. Calling the INFJs of the thread "the INFJ Swat Team" is disrespectful and ... it's a mechanism to discredit the views expressed and discount the perceptions and opinions offered as being somehow orchestrated. They were not.

  4. #764
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    ...the purpose of filtering the influence of these factors being able to apply the information to people who aren't influenced by those factors...



    edit for edit: these were your own grouping, i just named it... as a joke. and i'm not accusing you of orchestrating anything, i'm simply saying to everyone else who might come into various conclusions in regards to INFJs based on what they've seen that there is an important factor to take into account.

  5. #765
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Yerp. Read my three part series above, see what you think. Plus, stay tuned for PART 4!
    You know, I’m sorry, my brain pooped out back around page 68 and I haven’t been able to read much since. So many words. And each word has so many possible meanings. At that point my priority became to just get back to a couple questions I hadn’t gotten back to, and apparently even doing that much was a mistake because topic exhaustion is causing too much of my inner soul-crushing Death Eater INFJ thinking process to bleed through. Hopefully I’ll get back to it at some point.


    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Not that short ...

    ENTP1: OK, you can show your remorse, now.
    ENTP2: No, U.
    ENTP1: I said so first. I guess you're incapable of showing remorse.
    ENTP2: Yeah, way to distract from the fact that you can't show remorse.
    ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
    ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
    ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
    ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
    ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
    ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
    ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
    ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
    ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
    ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
    ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
    ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
    ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
    ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
    ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
    ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
    ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
    ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
    ...
    LOL.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  6. #766
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    This is an interesting thread. I'ma get to the point where I have enough backstory here to actually contribute, but I'm not there yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    See, I don't want Ni synthesis, I want your raw data. I need to be able to synthesize it myself, and only I can ascertain what's useful from getting it in unprocessed form. I'll form my own opinion from that.
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I want each individual story, so I offer my own. It's the only one I have authority of. It's the only one I can relate without presuming to conclude anything about anybody else. I'm like a distillery, but all the ingredients have to be added first. And I'll let those ingredients mix and intermingle for a long time. I'l add a lot of them along the way.

    When you say, "Me me me" it sounds very selfish. It's hard to dissociate and not think you think I'm being selfish by extension.
    Seem yeah.. this is how I personally roll, too. If you're not just laying the raw cookie dough out there, you're giving me an insight solely from your perspective. That, to me, seems more me-me-meish.
    ..?

    I trust some people, on some issues, to give me 'the skinny' from their perspective--as we all need shortcuts to avoid information overload. But.. y'know, not everyone in every situation. Perhaps it's that I want to be the one to do my own filtering, thank you very much, and I'll throw out the irrelevant stuff on my own.

    On the flipside--when it comes back around to sharing my assessments, I do find it difficult to recall why I've drawn some of my conclusions. Once data has been used to solidify my perceptions, I don't tend to keep it kicking around in my head. Not having that information readily available gets me into 'trouble' when I want others to be able to draw their own conclusions.

  7. #767
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    This is an interesting thread. I'ma get to the point where I have enough backstory here to actually contribute, but I'm not there yet.



    Seem yeah.. this is how I personally roll, too. If you're not just laying the raw cookie dough out there, you're giving me an insight solely from your perspective. That, to me, seems more me-me-meish.
    ..?

    I trust some people, on some issues, to give me 'the skinny' from their perspective--as we all need shortcuts to avoid information overload. But.. y'know, not everyone in every situation. Perhaps it's that I want to be the one to do my own filtering, thank you very much, and I'll throw out the irrelevant stuff on my own.

    On the flipside--when it comes back around to sharing my assessments, I do find it difficult to recall why I've drawn some of my conclusions. Once data has been used to solidify my perceptions, I don't tend to keep it kicking around in my head. Not having that information readily available gets me into 'trouble' when I want others to be able to draw their own conclusions.
    I try to do the same thing but I think the tricky part is knowing where and if the raw cookie dough is also being filtered.

  8. #768
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    [My story is] the only one I can relate without presuming to conclude anything about anybody else. [...]

    But if it was already cake, [OA] wouldn't be looking for more ingredients, your raw data.
    This, and this, both very important.

    Me-me-me is because we don't want to presume about you-you-you. We figure you would enjoy telling your own story, plus it's not our right to share it to begin with. I think this is part of why we are less sensitive to people babbling about themselves. We figure that if someone else wants to speak up, they will when they are ready.

    OA might have an agenda but she's still open to info, and her ship (cake?) can still be turned around.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    That last statement is helpful. Instead of seeing each piece of information in the context of how it fits into the whole machine as a working part, it is viewed individually without the context of how it fits into a particular structure (or what its job is in the "machine").

    No wonder then that we really need to know what the desired outcome is (what machine are we building and how do these parts fit with it), while the predominantly Fi people feel that we don't even know what all parts we have and what kind of machines could potentially be built out of them, so sorting the parts is rather premature.

    So I'm raging at the other person not believing me that that part is not going to fit into the machine I'm trying to build, while they can't believe that I would be chucking out perfectly serviceable parts that could be useful for something down the road, especially when we're not even sure yet what we're making.

    I also only want to consider parts manufacturers that have a name for making reliable parts of the kind I need, while they are more open to looking at a variety of different manufacturers, some known and some new companies, because there are a variety of different parts that they might need and that my favourite manufacturer may not specialize in.

    Interesting!
    Yay! This is very useful for understanding!


  9. #769
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    OK, so I'm back. I went away for the weekend and come back to 10 notifications I hope no one thought I was off in a huff.

    I fear some frank explanations are in order:

    I really didn't want to make this thread all about me, this is, in part why I haven't voiced a range of stuff. I also don't like approaching difficult issues in such a direct manner because it's my preference to avoid forcing my emotions and views on others. I prefer to gently explain my perspectives and hope that others take something away from it. When that doesn't happen, I either step back entirely or I foolishly persist until I get frustrated and then snap at someone.

    @Z Buck McFate I'm sorry that I didn't give you fair warning that my patience was wearing thin. I myself didn't realise how thin until afterwards. Only a few days ago I was saying to @PeaceBaby that I was fine with everything that was going on. I fear I was in not the best of moods the other day and I voiced things I normally wouldn't have. You post made it hard to get to sleep the night before - it went round and round in my head. It seemed to me rather like everything positive that I was getting out of this thread was perhaps illusionary, as you didn't appear to (from my perspective) listen/understand things at all. I do realise you meant well, but it started to sound a lot like some of the unintentional little digs and mildly annoying resistance in this thread that have been getting at me. I should have let them go but instead, my frustration got the better of me. This is not fair on you, and I apologise. TBH all of this is so pathetically minor in the scheme of things and I would not worry too much about it (ie. don't take this stuff to much to heart - my interactions with you have been positive in the past), however, I do hope you will still try to listen to what I have to say. And as it seems I've started down this path I should probably follow through rather than leaving everyone uneasy and in the dark. There are things I'd like you to understand that I don't feel are getting through.

    @Starry I have read all your posts as I've gone through the thread. I stopped responding because I apologised, yet you continued to dig at me. I disliked your snarky tone and thought it was better to leave the matter alone, rather than engage that. I did have issues with some of what you have said, but I have no interest in exploring those, because to me it's done and dusted. I've let it go and moved on, and hoped that you would do so too. I will gladly consider the matter settled, however, if you decide to keep digging at me, I will not reply.

    God, it feels repulsive to do say all this - all of this just soundly like wanky, obnoxious confessional. I apologise for the necessity of it and for inflicting it on you all. I normally don't pull this shit on the forum, I swear.

    More (vaguely on topic) stuff to come...
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  10. #770
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    At a more abstract level, using a concrete example, this is Fi:



    This is Fe:



    Fi - You like me, in spite of knowing my darker side. Fe - All the things that I might have had with you. Fi is about the subject, so it's always messed up by the darker aspects of the subject. And thus Fi feels most appreciated when accepted in the entirety. Fe is about the object, thus can be placed upon a pedestal (or in the garbage bin, though not in this song). There is a (not necessarily bad) distance between the subject and the object.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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