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  1. #741
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Yes, you got the stories, and Peacebaby alluded long ago as to her admiring the 'strategy' you employed, but the 'strategy' is precisely what I find so lame.
    Oh, do let me be clear though, it was 'admire' in this fashion ...

    It 'worked', but at (imo) such a high price. It upset a bunch of folks I enjoy interacting with and at a time where the pot did not need any stirring. If anything, it almost caused the thread to self-destruct. Frankly, I was pretty pi**ed off.

    If the net result is understanding, but understanding was reached via a process that leaves casualities left and right, then what you might end up with is Understanding, With No Desire to Interact Further. There has to be a better way of going about it. (and now this post is becoming more general)
    See, that's what I think Mane is ok with - he uses you to get what he needs, so he pushes it to the extreme. As far as he dare - and he realizes he's burning bridges.

    ETA: Please don't think I admire Mane in any 'adoring' sense for what he did - it was button-pushingly-annoying as heck. Some folks left then and haven't come back, and will likely choose not to interact in this fashion again, and I think that's a massive loss - what I mentioned in my reply as the 'human cost'. What I kind of admired in a wry way was his incisive ability to take it right to the very edge, he pushed right to the point someone would door-slam him (or strangle him), but not quite. And he planned it out, it was calculated, he chose a word that maximized reactions ... personally it wouldn't even occur to me to try to use an emotional reaction to advance a goal. It's dirty pool. I always go the idea route.

    I don't even know what my goal is being here right now. Just to see this through I guess to the point where it feels like understanding is enhanced, from all vantage points.

    This is rambly, but it was illustrative of that ENTP stereotype of reading people well and getting them to do what they want, even if they don't want to do it. I'd never seen it in action, in this way. Button-pusher extraordinaire. No offense intended personally Mane, I trust you won't take it that way.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #742
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I think throughout the thread it was clear that Mane was doing the same kind of stuff that Simulated World used to , in the interests of answering the questions he had. The only thing that made me a bit okay with it is recognizing that that was what it was (I didn't feel like I was "had" then), and also the fact that I identify with wanting to understand why an SO acted in a particular way so that I could answer my own questions and move on, if I can't get the answers directly.

    However, it has been at the expense of asking any favours or cooperation of most of the INFJs on here in the future. It seems to me that Mane weighed the cost of that and was okay with it, as this was more pressing.

    I don't think it is a great strategy for maintaining any longterm friendships or romantic relationships. I can see if I were his INFJ significant other, just getting disillusioned and one day refusing to even deal with it either irrevoccably, or at least for an extremely long period of time (I'm talking years). I don't know if there would even be anger. Just a decision that nothing in the relating style would be likely to change, becoming tired of the emotional white noise created by it and choosing to at last just disengage permanently. Discussion at that point would be futile. I suspect that the negative experience Mane has had with his INFJ has more to do with how he is interacting with her than anything else, based on what I've seen here.

    I'm rather surprised that Mane is not recognizing that umlauu's statement has truth. To me, what umlauu said, and what has transpired here is totally compatible.

    Also, regarding the alleged INFJs (whose feelings Mane wishes to inform us of, but not disclose their identity) who are upset at the use of "we", my feeling is that if you do not wish to engage people to set the record straight, then you also don't get to vocalize your opinion (indirectly) to them. Either you're involved, or you're not. Mane privately writing to multiple INFJs to pass this "information" along does a lot to eradicate giving the benefit of the doubt to him, as it smacks of looking for "evidence" that agree with his point of view (again, perceived as personal agenda) anywhere he can find it, while not being prepared to actually be examined and to engage discussion with the actual parties involved (he could be making up fictional INFJs, for all I know, or they could be people who already have a beef with certain others on the board etc.) There's no way to examine the validity of the truth he's uncovered. All INFJs here have been pretty clear about what they mean by the use of we, and so deliberating twisting it to become something nefarious seems like a poor way to gain goodwill.

  3. #743
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Yup. You object and object, you beg and plead, and he will have his way, and then turn straight around and try to make you think it was a good idea, you were wrong to object, and he was actually helping you. What part of "No, and go away" confuses you. INFJ ladies who are all up in the whispering, take note, because if he'll do it to anybody, he'll do it to you.

    Pattern recognition's a bitch, ain't it?
    Last edited by Tiltyred; 01-21-2013 at 03:46 PM.

  4. #744
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Just as an aside - do Fi users have a filtering system for whose voices they find credible and whose they don't, or are there nuggets of truth in all if people just are willing to go looking for them? I'm confused about this.
    I'm not a dom or aux Fi user, and being dom Ni necessarily pollutes my perceptions with Ni-based reasoning, but I think I might have a partial answer, here.

    Just so that the Ni-aspects of my reasoning are clear, Ni filters by abstract synthesis, taking in everything that is said, finding some things that are clearly true, some things that are partially true, and some things that are untrue, and then rebuilding the pieces of truth and partial truth (and using untruth as a useful "anti-pattern" guideline) into a coherent overall picture that is (hopefully) mostly true and perhaps serves as a guideline for opening others to different perspectives. Most of my posts in this thread are examples of my doing this.

    The Fi side I don't think really synthesizes in that Ni manner, but there is an overall tone or smell (or any analogous sense that cannot be easily stated in definitive bytes of information) that indicates how much things are harmonious with other things that are said by the same person. So it isn't, for example, merely listening for an agenda, as @Tiltyred says she does, and eliminating from consideration those who have an agenda. Instead, note how @PeaceBaby's reply mentions that there is a lot of truth she is finding in what Mane says, even as she simultaneously notes other agendas and other patterns.

    As to Fi's resolution, PB's reply notes a lot more truth in Mane's comments than I do. My Ni, I think, filters things more, while PB's Fi appears to be more inclusive. As Ni dom, I regard Mane's overall opinion/approach as seriously flawed (which PB also notes), but because I tend to synthesize with Ni, I come up with a singular overall opinion, rather than an opinion about each piece. (FWIW, I don't have an issue with Mane's motivations, I just disagree with his reasoning.)
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  5. #745
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    AHA!

    Synthesizing with Ni and coming up with a singular overall opinion is what nfp calls "being judgmental."

    That INFP does not do this is why INFJ feels it's getting cake batter rather than cake.

    Yup. Thanks, uumlau.

  6. #746
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    That last statement is helpful. Instead of seeing each piece of information in the context of how it fits into the whole machine as a working part, it is viewed individually without the context of how it fits into a particular structure (or what its job is in the "machine").

    No wonder then that we really need to know what the desired outcome is (what machine are we building and how do these parts fit with it), while the predominantly Fi people feel that we don't even know what all parts we have and what kind of machines could potentially be built out of them, so sorting the parts is rather premature.

    So I'm raging at the other person not believing me that that part is not going to fit into the machine I'm trying to build, while they can't believe that I would be chucking out perfectly serviceable parts that could be useful for something down the road, especially when we're not even sure yet what we're making.

    I also only want to consider parts manufacturers that have a name for making reliable parts of the kind I need, while they are more open to looking at a variety of different manufacturers, some known and some new companies, because there are a variety of different parts that they might need and that my favourite manufacturer may not specialize in.

    Interesting!

  7. #747
    Glycerine
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    The thing that confused me about the whole situation was was how it all transpired. From the get go, it was easy to tell that the whole thing was about the INFJ ex-wife and by the time, there was the heart-felt letter, I was even more confused about it. While I am sure the situation was quite bitter and heart-breaking, I kept thinking, "there's got to be more to the story.... something seems off." I will admit that at first it truly offended me because I saw it as an unfair to a number of people on the forum but I think in the end, it truly doesn't matter.

  8. #748
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    So...what was the topic again?
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  9. #749
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    That last statement is helpful. Instead of seeing each piece of information in the context of how it fits into the whole machine as a working part, it is viewed individually without the context of how it fits into a particular structure (or what its job is in the "machine").

    No wonder then that we really need to know what the desired outcome is (what machine are we building and how do these parts fit with it), while the predominantly Fi people feel that we don't even know what all parts we have and what kind of machines could potentially be built out of them, so sorting the parts is rather premature.

    So I'm raging at the other person not believing me that that part is not going to fit into the machine I'm trying to build, while they can't believe that I would be chucking out perfectly serviceable parts that could be useful for something down the road, especially when we're not even sure yet what we're making.

    I also only want to consider parts manufacturers that have a name for making reliable parts of the kind I need, while they are more open to looking at a variety of different manufacturers, some known and some new companies, because there are a variety of different parts that they might need and that my favourite manufacturer may not specialize in.

    Interesting!
    Keep in mind that ISFPs may be more inclined to the Ni-synthesis point of view. I've both Si-ish and Se-ish dance instructors, and it's the Se ones that tend to synthesize and show how everything fits together into a coherent whole (tert/inf Ni). The Si-ish ones will pull things apart into distinct steps and pieces, leaving the overall synthesis as an exercise for the dancer.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  10. #750
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    See, I don't want Ni synthesis, I want your raw data. I need to be able to synthesize it myself, and only I can ascertain what's useful from getting it in unprocessed form. I'll form my own opinion from that.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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