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  1. #731
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post

    I don't even know what to say any more. I'm even afraid you're going to question, dismiss or belittle what I've written here...
    Yeah, there seems to be a central theme of misunderstanding to the point of over and over in this thread. And I don’t want to perpetuate this, so I’m not going to break down your post with “how did you get that?!” questions (if only because I don’t know the ‘correct’ way to do that here). I was actually trying to be helpful, explaining the misunderstanding that causes the ‘playing stupid’ or ‘being manipulating’ impression. I kinda feel like you didn’t catch the part where I said it’s the lazy Ni assumption- that it’s what it would mean if we said those kinds of things ourselves- and thought I had made clear that the problem was mis-hearing “me me me” on account of not understanding the “this is the affect this immediate moment has on me” FiNe approach to interacting with others. [And I kinda feel like you made some lazy Ji assumptions of your own in interpreting what I said (like what Starry alluded to), but seriously, I think I’ve met my threshold with this thread.]


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  2. #732
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I've noticed that a common theme with Fi users is that everyone's voice must be heard. Yet on the other hand, does this mean that there's no room at all for personal preference, or any filters to put it through? Is all of the filtering done purely looking at the message without any interest in its source? What about snarkiness with each other - is that just when a value of one person gets stepped on by another somehow or is that something else? What about if a person's feeling tones are off from the message they are giving? What if you doubt their intentions, do you still see parts of their message as valid?

    Edit: Interesting Starry - I'd like to hear more about that when you've had time to think it out.

  3. #733
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Just as an aside - do Fi users have a filtering system for whose voices they find credible and whose they don't, or are there nuggets of truth in all if people just are willing to go looking for them? I'm confused about this.
    I think the clue lies within the fact that most INFP's say they don't use the "Ignore" function ... certainly there are voices that I listen to for different things more. But I will read every post, what everyone says, and look for the truth in that.

    My impression is that INFJ's don't read every post, especially if they don't feel the writer is credible or they "dislike" them. Is that true?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Do I 'like' what you are saying...and if I don't I will assign 'poor intent' or what-have-you to you.
    I kind of think a turn of phrase caught SK off-guard, touched a hurty-spot. And, I'm not sure at her entrance-point in thread if she'd seen ZBuck talk about this already. I will check. If you just saw those "Me me me" things out of the blue, it could feel out-of-left-field and harsh.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    The funny thing about FP/FJ threads is I tend to get along better with FJs IRL.
    Yerp.

    Nuggets, probably. But people are always impacted by their personal lenses, so personal "truth" isn't always particularly objective.
    Oh I agree, I've said the whole "subjective is subjective" thing about 10 times in this thread alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    It is weird, this forum thing that happens, that's for sure.
    Yerp. Read my three part series above, see what you think. Plus, stay tuned for PART 4!

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I've noticed that a common theme with Fi users is that everyone's voice must be heard. Yet on the other hand, does this mean that there's no room at all for personal preference, or any filters to put it through? Is all of the filtering done purely looking at the message without any interest in its source? What about snarkiness with each other - is that just when a value of one person gets stepped on by another somehow or is that something else? What about if a person's feeling tones are off from the message they are giving? What if you doubt their intentions, do you still see parts of their message as valid?
    Actually these are huge questions that will take time to respond to. But the quick answer is that it's all feelings, eh? Yes, there is personal preference, and the filters are feelings / truthiness ones. The source is of interest, yes, but we see patterns of response that lead us to anticipate reactions from each person. So it's not surprising when people do or say certain things. As far as snarkiness with each other, I'll have to think about how best to answer that. If the feeling tones don't resonate with the message, we'll want to figure out why. If we doubt intentions, we still find what's in each message we can take away.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  4. #734
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post

    I actually don't have any problem whatsoever interacting with INFPs outside of this forum, and for the most part, not here either. I don't have problems with INFPs irl, either. Just wanted to get that out there.
    Quote Originally Posted by skylights
    The funny thing about FP/FJ threads is I tend to get along better with FJs IRL.
    The cynic in me thinks that this is probably because for both parties, irl, the bulk of what's 'said' in this thread is never articulated verbally irl. Could be expanded to all types, all individuals, all interactions... if irl we all knew exactly how the other person was feeling, or thinking, etc, how easily would we be able to get along? Do we ever really know the other person? Do we really want to? What would that mean? (total philosophical tangent, lol)

    I mean I think that's both the beauty and the difficulty of written media/online... a lot is lost, but then, the inner world of all is revealed: as much as one chooses to reveal, that is. And the inner world, the thoughts or feelings not covered up by a lifetime of learnings and filters and biting-tongues, is going to be scary, unsettling, or perplexing if revealed to most, if not all. NFP's and NFJ's alike are prone to be hurt if unvarnished thoughts/feelings are rejected or misunderstood.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  5. #735
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    The cynic in me thinks that this is probably because for both parties, irl, the bulk of what's 'said' in this thread is never articulated verbally irl. [...] And the inner world, the thoughts or feelings not covered up by a lifetime of learnings and filters and biting-tongues, is going to be scary, unsettling, or perplexing if revealed to most, if not all.
    Absolutely.

    I think the lack of physical presence of a person makes it so much easier to feel disconnected. My ISFJ and I clearly don't think alike, and we've had a number of disagreements which revealed how very differently we process: me, individual-subjectively and conceptually, him, collective-subjectively and practically. At first it felt very alienating, to the point of us feeling like we could never understand one another. But then we got tired of arguing and leaned against one another, and I think the humanity of us came pouring back into ourselves, realizing how even though we have these very different lenses, our similarities are overwhelming to the point that our differences ultimately cannot keep us apart. We don't have that luxury of physical being here.

    Perhaps valuable to keep in mind that we are all human, all interested in psychology, all members of TypeC, mostly NFs, mostly INFs, and all seeking understanding. So many bonds we all share. We all bear pain and sorrow and stress and happiness and love.

    As for the tangent - well, theoretically, knowing another person inside and out would be so encompassing, so enveloping - it would probably cause a huge loss of identity, and you would almost become a hybrid of two people. I'm not sure we really want that because our differences make us so valuable to one another. I love having lots of different types in my life because it means so much strength.

  6. #736
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I don't know about the others, but I do generally read every post, except for a very few ponderous ones that take 8-10 re-readings and I'm not sure of what they are saying even then.

    If someone annoys me, I still am likely to read what they read. I may not put much stock by it, but not reading it leaves a hole in my understanding of the thread. And...well maybe I'm just nosy like that. I put one person on ignore once (just because their version of reality was so skewed and it was beginning to really negatively impact my ability to participate/mod on the forum, but I took them off soon after just because I hated not knowing what was going on. I felt blind.)

  7. #737
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I don't know about the others, but I do generally read every post, except for a very few ponderous ones that take 8-10 re-readings and I'm not sure of what they are saying even then.
    yes I do that too.

    If someone annoys me, I still am likely to read what they read. I may not put much stock by it, but not reading it leaves a hole in my understanding of the thread. And...well maybe I'm just nosy like that. I put one person on ignore once (just because their version of reality was so skewed and it was beginning to really negatively impact my ability to participate/mod on the forum, but I took them off soon after just because I hated not knowing what was going on. I felt blind.)
    Interesting too ... I want as much data as I can get, and you need that info as well, but we likely need it for different reasons and use it in different ways according to our function order. More pondering on my part to commence ... thanks for your reply.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #738
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I read every post. In a thread that's hard to follow or takes a lot of energy, I use Ignore to filter out people whose posts are low content/high annoyance to me personally, so I can focus on the thread. For me, low content/high annoyance can be anything from 1. arguing for the sake of arguing/intellectual showing off and oneupmanship, 2. attention-whoring/flirting excessively, 3. axe to grind. It's usually not personal but it can be, in which case I use Ignore so I don't get any further hurt or inflict hurt myself by losing my temper.

  9. #739
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    No, the critical question is, "How much of this behavior is due to the person in your life having serious issues, and how much is due to her being an INFJ?"
    There is something to be gained by learning, "Here is how an INFJ with serious issues tends to (mis)behave."
    There is something to be gained by learning that certain behaviors are just normal INFJ behaviors.
    There is nothing to be gained by implying that other INFJs (whom you hardly know, and certainly don't know in real life) are prone to the same misbehavior.
    that has IMO proven itself to not be true:
    it enabled to differentiate the repeating patterns from the specific exceptions, it brought issues to the table which others could relate too and reframe in various ways and caused the debate to spun around them both, eventually allowing for both conflicting examples and explanations (with the good work of skylights), which highlighted and cut down to more probable potential causes and influences, and have the potential to yield ways to work with and around those causes.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    As for issues of denial, um, most everyone who misbehaves denies it, and everyone accused of misbehavior that hasn't misbehaved will deny it.
    me and others - including a good few of the INFJs here - have shared anecdotes contradicting that statement.

  10. #740
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    that has IMO proven itself to not be true:
    it enabled to differentiate the repeating patterns from the specific exceptions, it brought issues to the table which others could relate too and reframe in various ways and caused the debate to spun around them both, eventually allowing for both conflicting examples and explanations (with the good work of skylights), which highlighted and cut down to more probable potential causes and influences, and have the potential to yield ways to work with and around those causes.


    me and others - including a good few of the INFJs here - have shared anecdotes contradicting that statement
    It sounds like you gained something from infj's much earlier on in this thread sharing stories, and you feel better about overall 'patterns', able to extinguish between more isolated cases vs. not.

    I can't say I gained anything through the methods you utilized, though, other than being resentful. Pushing so hard to get information YOU want, regardless of how it impacts everyone? Is that worth the cost? Yes, you got the stories, and Peacebaby alluded long ago as to her admiring the 'strategy' you employed, but the 'strategy' is precisely what I find so lame. The agenda aspect, as Tiltyred mentioned. So you may have gained better understanding of infjs', which was your aim/goal/purpose, but believe me, you didn't build warm fuzzies and goodwill between myself and you, in the process.

    I actually find the nfp's in this thread much more palatable, and the effort put out by all of them. So, it's not Fe/Fi, Te/Ti, and so on. I also know it's not an across-the-board entp thing. And, I know this is my own reaction, so I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just stating my own lens; so I'm not trying to paint this across everyone else, as I'm sure there are several infj's out there who have a different take on it. And that's ok. I just don't think the net-result that you outline is quite as positive and innocuous as you state. Just because people give information and end up sharing, doesn't mean they at the same time don't alter their own opinions of you/the thread in the process.

    If the net result is understanding, but understanding was reached via a process that leaves casualities left and right, then what you might end up with is Understanding, With No Desire to Interact Further. There has to be a better way of going about it. (and now this post is becoming more general)
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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