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  1. #721
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    PART 3:

    It's kind of like a search party made up of people that loosely fall into two groups ... the first group believes the best way to find the lost person is to use a map and figure out where to go based on the last known location. The second group believes that the best way to find the lost person is by trying to put themselves in the shoes of the lost person and guess what they might do. Ne-aux grabs the map and Fe-aux protests it was rude to do that. Fi-dom says, "I need to see where we need to go, there's new terrain I've yet to explore" and Ni-dom says, "I've already narrowed it down so let's go where I've decided you need to go." Fi-Ne says, "You don't have a right to pre-select, the lost person could be ANYWHERE!" and Ni-Fe says, "You need to follow the protocol of chain of command here, mister." We . get . stuck.

    If an INFP wants to engage an INFJ, this protocol has the potential to positively start the process and helps to ensure communication can ensue. The process has to start somewhere, and since Fe-aux puts up the first protest, the Fi-Ne person is in the best position to help communications reach the next level.

    Assuming the INFP can use the list above, at this point, we look to the INFJ:

    INFP's - the factors we need to connect with someone and share are:

    1.) Compassion: A demonstration of compassion towards the emotions we are trying to process. (Why are you hurting, your hurting matters to me.)

    2.) Acceptance and Tolerance: An attempt to accommodate that fact that emotions and logic may be intermingled, especially in emotional moments. (This has been difficult for you, how can I help? Asking questions to clarify emotion.)

    3.) Suspension of Judgement: An effort to listen without placing information within the larger context; the suspension of offering solutions. (The suspension of judgement shows you believe I can figure this out.)

    4.) Open-mindedness: Believing that although the path appears obscure, we will get to our destination. (We can get there together; I can help remind you of our goal. We are ok.)

    This hopefully leads to mutual trust. And this trust can be the fundament I believe of some excellent discussions together. Most importantly, we can't jump immediately to our aux to problem-solve, or we end up in the stuck place again. When Fi-Ne hears their "alarm bells" we need to stop and ask ourselves, "Am I presenting too many options, mixed messages, emotions mixed with data?" Fi-Ne can then state out loud what is venting vs what is not to help reduce "white noise". When Ni-Fe hears their "alarm bells", it's important to declare out loud that the "alarm bells" are ringing, and that you are overwhelmed with mixed messages and need time to process. Ask for clarification. Ask if this is venting or theorizing, or if there's an agenda or goal. Ask for time-out.

    Now, the hinge point: The Ti tert and the Si tert can also be tripping points. This part, I need to work on further, further than I can suss out of my heart and brain tonight. But suffice it to say, we need to be able to tolerate from each other, respectively and to a certain degree, Si's need for copious amounts of data and Ti's need to nit-pick into the details and nitty-gritty of interaction.

    This IS a work in progress. Add, subtract, pick apart. It might be the start of some sort of explanation of why INFJ's and INFP's have trouble interacting in a mutually desirable way? I mean, we WANT to, each of us, yet it hits these bumps in the road that I believe might be navigable.

    PART 4 to follow .....
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #722
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Hmm, I like the way you've reduced it down, PB. You are bang on on the Part 2 points (at least for me personally). It is also helpful to have the Part 3 INFP points laid out succinctly like that. I will need to do some more thinking, but just wanted to say that on first reading, this is good stuff! Thanks for taking time to think it out. I'll be interested to see what you've got to say about tert functions.

  3. #723
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I had a feeling when I posted my least so variant brand of callousness might be bleeding through a bit too much. This thread has been like ‘the song that never ends’ since about 10 pages into it, and that brings a certain kind of exhaustion that makes it difficult to know when I’m being too callous. Maybe someone else can come along and give a lighter translation of what I said.

    It’s just, there’s a certain kind of “me me me” subtext- or what *seems* to be- in the FP approach sometimes. Because the focus first and foremost seems to be one’s own story and the immediate moment- at least more than for FJs. It’s not that the individual isn’t important- it’s just that we work that out afterward in a very lengthy internal process, one that is so vague it’s hard to talk about but it's constantly going on. I know how I feel about things- just not right away- and I think it’s important for others to know how they feel about things too. I just don’t understand this ‘talking about it right away’ stuff.

    I was trying to get at *why* it looks like ‘playing stupid’ or why it looks like manipulation, basically. Because it doesn’t occur to us to present our immediate impressions of our own story- and instead we present immediate impressions of ‘shared story’- it’s hard not to see someone present their own immediate impressions of their own story as trying to ‘guide’ the shared story in a really self absorbed way. But understanding all this better sheds light on the extent to which it *isn’t* someone trying to pass off “Me me me” as the ‘shared story’- that it’s simply presenting immediate impressions?

    I’m really hoping someone else can maybe say this in a less harsh way.
    The problem is, you've put me in a pretty difficult position.

    You've assumed (and praised) the effectiveness and accuracy of your own method of reading people, in such a manner, that makes me feel that to disagree with you in any way would sound like a stubborn refusal to believe an undeniable truth.

    You've diminished my method of reading people as inherently flawed and prone to inaccuracy, so much so, that I feel belittled. I feel like you've undermined even the possibility that my opinions might have a kernel of truth.

    You've diminished my method of interacting with people so much, that I don't feel safe enough to open my mouth now. How can I? All I'm going to be second-guessing every innocent thing I write, worrying if I sound selfish and self-centred. This hurts the most.

    In not so many words, you've suggested there's no way I can effectively communicate with you or breach any impasse with INFJs in general, while I am behaving like my (wrong) natural self.



    Look, I honestly don't want to start an argument here. Your post is just so hard for me to read. I'm sure you meant well, that is, I hope you meant well, because I can no longer tell (and to believe that you really meant all this would only increase my disillusionment). It's just that, not only do I feel that I am no longer speaking to an open mind or sympathetic ears, you're basically destroying any sense of hope I had that we are moving forward here, or even that progress is possible.

    I don't even know what to say any more. I'm even afraid you're going to question, dismiss or belittle what I've written here...
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  4. #724
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Random, during the intermission:

    I actually don't have any problem whatsoever interacting with INFPs outside of this forum, and for the most part, not here either. I don't have problems with INFPs irl, either. Just wanted to get that out there.

    and to say this is very fine work, Peacebaby

    and that agenda matters. If uumlau tells me something, I listen, because he has zero agenda. If Highlander tells me something, I listen, because he has zero agenda. I started out completely sympathetic to Mane and wanting to help, but he has lost his credibility with me because he's proven to be insensitive, insistent, and full of personal agenda. Don't know about other INFJs, but for me, trust has to be there and has to be earned (we've said this but apparently it hasn't sunk in for at least Mane), not just on an emotional level, but on a level of authority as well. Do I feel the other person knows what they're talking about, do I feel they are competent to judge me, do I admire their behavior and want to emulate it -- if yes, then compliance. If no, then not. (just realized what I'm talking about here is respect. and that for me, it's big.)

    Mane has shared with me that he is speaking for INFJs who are not comfortable posting in this thread for various reasons but instead choose to air their views to him. I thought this was interesting. I've deleted most of my posts and have cut way down responding and/or can not respond at all if my presence is keeping anyone from participating. To the extent that I've squelched anyone but Mane, I apologize.

    @Southern Kross -- could it be that we don't want company so much as a witness? I've often thought this. I just want someone to know how I feel. I don't need to know that they felt it too, or for them to feel it with me, I just want someone to know. I just want to be heard. (I'm just tossing this out for whatever it might be worth -- I could be wrong.) So when INFJ says "Oh, bad thing happened" and INFP says "Oh! I know just how you feel! Bad thing happened to me, too! Let me tell you all about it," it seems to INFJ like INFP is changing the subject, like "Oh. Ok. Or we could talk about you, yes"? In any case, I just wanted to say that I have admired your efforts very much and feel you are a fine person.

  5. #725
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    @Tiltyred: excellent points on the agenda, and the pushing of what appears to be personal agenda, and authority/trust ... I have some thoughts floating around in my mind on that, and that's perfect to tie into Ti's influence ... after my mind recovers from the current jelly-like state that those three posts have turned my brain into.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #726
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Random, during the intermission:

    I actually don't have any problem whatsoever interacting with INFPs outside of this forum, and for the most part, not here either. I don't have problems with INFPs irl, either. Just wanted to get that out there.

    and to say this is very fine work, Peacebaby

    and that agenda matters. If uumlau tells me something, I listen, because he has zero agenda. If Highlander tells me something, I listen, because he has zero agenda. I started out completely sympathetic to Mane and wanting to help, but he has lost his credibility with me because he's proven to be insensitive, insistent, and full of personal agenda. Don't know about other INFJs, but for me, trust has to be there and has to be earned (we've said this but apparently it hasn't sunk in for at least Mane), not just on an emotional level, but on a level of authority as well. Do I feel the other person knows what they're talking about, do I feel they are competent to judge me, do I admire their behavior and want to emulate it -- if yes, then compliance. If no, then not. (just realized what I'm talking about here is respect. and that for me, it's big.)

    ...

    @Southern Kross -- could it be that we don't want company so much as a witness? I've often thought this. I just want someone to know how I feel. I don't need to know that they felt it too, or for them to feel it with me, I just want someone to know. I just want to be heard. (I'm just tossing this out for whatever it might be worth -- I could be wrong.) So when INFJ says "Oh, bad thing happened" and INFP says "Oh! I know just how you feel! Bad thing happened to me, too! Let me tell you all about it," it seems to INFJ like INFP is changing the subject entirely? In any case, I just wanted to say that I have admired your efforts very much and feel you are a fine person.
    I identify with a lot of the sentiments Tilty expresses in this post. For me too, I like and get along well with INFPs both inside and outside of the forum. This is a unique opportunity to understand the inner workings of how two types interact on a deeper level in a way that rarely comes up in real life except with a very close, very longterm friendship/familial relationship, or with a romantic partner.

    I don't think that your way is either invalid or wrong, @Southern Kross. It is foreign though and sometimes in expressing unsureness about how your way works, it can sound more like saying it's not right at all when it is really requesting more information to understand. Even Z Buck was aware that her post seemed a little stark and was looking for someone to help her clarify that it wasn't judgement she was expressing so much as just explaining how it feels if we don't have adequate background information. From an INFJ perspective, this is what we not only want but need to be able to decide what we think about our own way of interacting. (By the way, I'm not claiming to speak for Z Buck, or for all INFJs everywhere either, so correct me if I'm mistaken).

    I remember in another thread realizing that I had really ended up hurting Esoteric Wench by explaining how her interaction felt to me. It never occurred to me that I was offering anything more than an impression for her to ponder and factor in. Like getting outside feedback on how your golf swing is looking or something. I think this is a fundamental difference between us. That kind of information to us is softened and neutralized by the "seems" or the "feels". It's offering information that we can't get from ourselves, and is inviting additional information from the other person to correct our perception or feeling. What I think we often overlook is that people with introverted feeling are affected by this much differently. It is invalidating them as a person and is deeply cutting.

    Since learning that, I sometimes still fail to remember how much the other person can be affected by something that doesn't strike me that way personally. So I read what you replied to Z Buck, but I didn't really understand just how seriously it had affected you until last post of yours (and then felt stupid, since it was something that I actually had known about). I'm so sorry about that.

    Maybe it's too soon to talk about it, but do you have any ideas for how we can better convey useful information for understanding what's in one another's heads while not inflicting wounds unintentionally? I really, really don't want to be inadvertently doing that, but I can't always see when I am until afterwards. (I've got it that use of the words "seems" and "feels" feel just stating the same thing as fact, as well as invalidating a person's strengths, identity and striking at who they are as a person).

    For what it's worth, I have greatly appreciated and thought over the ideas in your posts and I think that you have done a fantastic job of helping to bridge the gap for me throughout this thread.

    I do identify with what Tilty is saying by way of explanation. I think it is partly because Fe users tend to express feelings or events for a different reason than Fi users, and so when they are offered the response that a Fi user would expect and respond to, it is surprising to them (and vice-versa). For me, I want people to understand where I am coming from or know something about me or get a more complete picture of the situation. I didn't realize until coming here that Fi's currency is shared experience (I'm saying it wrong, but at a glance that it how I would describe it to myself).

    Both currencies are entirely valid and can be appreciated and enjoyed by both types. (If you've ever experienced Fi caring, there's nothing in the world like it!). However, like someone said before, it's like expecting one food and being surprised with another. Both pizza and cheeseburgers are tasty. However, if I believe that someone is offering me a slice of pizza and I think it is their version of a cheeseburger, my initial reaction might be a rather ungracious "This is a terrible cheeseburger! It isn't right at all!" I might even go on to explain how they made it wrong and what would have to change if it were to be a good cheeseburger. ("Look, you've got tomato sauce on here! There's no hamburger patty! etc etc) However, if I know that they are offering me pizza, I can appreciate it for the culinary delight that it is and also appreciate their mastery at creating something that I can't replicate in the least.

    To me, the breakdown is occurring with what we each are expecting we're getting, and not in your actually culinary prowess or the quality of the ingredients used.

  7. #727
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Southern Kross - I will do everything in my power to be as 'abrasive-free' as I possibly can in this message in order to accommodate what can only be understood by me as...'your hypocrisy'. For example, I have learned from your contributions in this thread that while OA's abrasive manner should absolutely be ignored by the INFJs...my manner is apparently cause for you to not even try to understand what I'm saying or treat me like there is the possibility that you might not have a good grasp on things like say...'my motivations', etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Oh, I saw the point of the hyperbole but it doesn't appeal to me. I see it as distortion and distraction, not as something bringing clarity and reducing "white noise". It sounds to me like a child reduced to calling names when an argument doesn't go their way. Not an effective tool at all in my eyes, and, at the risk of sounding humourless, not my brand of 'wit'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    People get a bit dramatic when they're angry or hurt, so sometimes they might inadvertently misrepresent the situation or talk in hyperbole. That's no reason for me to completely disregard what they're saying" - this comes back to what I was saying about emotions being merely signs and not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We then try to mine what we can from what is said, to find nuggets of truth (ie. search for the essence), without worrying too much about the 'veils' (ie. the anger, pain, and possible misrepresentation). To us finding those nuggets is a sign that there is value in what that person is saying.
    The INFJs in this thread seem to really like you and appreciate what you have to say. As for me, however, as an individual that has been profoundly misunderstood, insulted and disregarded as having nothing valuable to say by you...I personally do not have a lot of faith in your interpretation of 'things'.

    So it comes as no surprise that when I read Z Buck's message I see none of what you see and find your response to it incredibly odd. Almost like...??? Hyperbole. How you are reading 'she is diminishing your interaction style' (or whatever) and that you are experiencing a sense of being 'belittled' is completely beyond me.

  8. #728
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Just as an aside - do Fi users have a filtering system for whose voices they find credible and whose they don't, or are there nuggets of truth in all if people just are willing to go looking for them? I'm confused about this.

  9. #729
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Just as an aside - do Fi users have a filtering system for whose voices they find credible and whose they don't, or are there nuggets of truth in all if people just are willing to go looking for them? I'm confused about this.
    Like I said...I'm noticing a great deal of hypocrisy in this thread. And prior to 'it' I may have answered 'No, not really.' But a different picture is currently emerging in my mind. I think Fi may, in fact, bring about some form of 'idealism' in where the 'user' is able to claim...even believe on some level that they are truly non-judgmental...or sincerely willing to set aside differing styles...blah, blah, blah...and somewhat objectively absorb the message...when in reality it is really about the nature of the message itself. Do I 'like' what you are saying...and if I don't I will assign 'poor intent' or what-have-you to you.

    I will have to think more about this...but as for right now...again...there seems to be a differrent picture emerging.

  10. #730
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Speaking of asides, the funny thing about FP/FJ threads is I tend to get along better with FJs IRL.


    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia
    Just as an aside - do Fi users have a filtering system for whose voices they find credible and whose they don't, or are there nuggets of truth in all if people just are willing to go looking for them? I'm confused about this.

    Nuggets, probably. But people are always impacted by their personal lenses, so personal "truth" isn't always particularly objective. It kind of comes down to asking if there is a singular reality, and I don't know if there is. So at least to me, it's a balancing game of practicality and fulfillment - I want everyone to feel loved and heard, but in practical terrms I have to be aware of how skewed their perception is in comparison to others' and I have to protect myself from the potential negative ramifications of that.

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