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  1. #701
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    good reads... and very confusing, at least for one aspect alone:

    can i ask (both INFx's): what's with all the "we" and "us" when referring to.. basically, your own experience within yourself?
    Probably it's the same phenomenon that you experience when you take your personal experience with your wife and translate it to applying to all INFJs.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  2. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I would not say that I can speak for all INFJs everywhere
    ok that's good, but this isn't a thread about "what do fidelia, Z Buck, Tilty, cascadeco, and fia do that drives you nuts", the context derived of "we" and "us" has a very strong chance of coming off as a reference to all INFJs.



    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Probably it's the same phenomenon that you experience when you take your personal experience with your wife and translate it to applying to all INFJs.
    ...judging by the other half of that very same post your quoting:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i mean, it seemed like the whole shenanigan and consequential conflicts here started from how other people seen members of your own type as representatives of your type and daring to generalize from one's own experience. why is this now done repetitively by both sides of the debate towards their own respective types?
    seems like we're in agreement... in fact it seems like that was exactly the point.

  3. #703
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    @Z Buck McFate your post leaves me feeling seriously disillusioned...
    I'm really sorry about that...I don't know if this makes it worse or better...

    I think what it comes down to is that introverted functions don't do their cooking externally and so when they do make a statement, it is more of a conclusion or checking for final confirmation, rather than an idea being thrown out there. If it is misunderstood as brainstorming, it can feel like the other party is deliberately being dismissive, unkind, or demeaning.

    Extraverted functions do their cooking externally, but the statements made along the way are stated in ways that sound final to introverted function ears, even when the intent is inviting more information.

    Introverted functions tend to want to streamline information into something manageable. They want the person to do the work internally and present them with something they can work from, while extraverted ones can't draw any conclusions without being able to explore those thoughts aloud.

    Both parties offend in this way. In this case, it's with Ne trying ideas on for size and mixing emotional with logical statements (creating a kind of undertow that is distracting). Then there's Fe trying ideas on for size and mixing judgemental and logical statements (which is equally distracting). Both are only trying to make sense of the situation.

    The direct nature of both extraverted functions can also mean that their users sometimes leave off the frosting which can make their statements palatable to their introverted function counterparts, believing that they are just saying the same thing in a shorter way.

    I think that at least if we've come to understand this, and have examples of what it looks like, there's got to be a way to break through. For me, the complicating factor is that everyone has both introverted and extraverted function, so sometimes it is hard to separate out what is caused by what and the flavours get all mixed together. If it were as simple as just recognizing a particular function and then adjusting one's understanding to get the proper message, I think it would be much easier. However, I can't help but think that despite the length of these kinds of threads and what some would call beating a dead horse, I feel a little closer to coming to an understanding of the situation so that I can at least start working out a solution.

    As you can see, INFJs have a hard time boiling it all down to a few succinct points without doing a lot of external exploring first. I wonder if this also adds to the frustration, as it appears that while you are accommodating that need, there was not the same willingness to allow the Ne exploration needed?

    I think one of the biggest problems for me in trying to accommodate, is that I don't really know what I think or feel right in the moment, so I have no personal story to contribute without understanding how it could be useful to you or to developing a shared story. The usefulness part helps me to narrow down what it is I'm looking for inside the tons of banker's boxes full of files littered around the landscape of my head. Without that, it feels like being asked to just empty out all of the boxes entirely, with papers fluttering out from all of the files, and as you can imagine, it's quite a job putting it all back later, so I only do it for people I know very well and even then, only when I understand why it is necessary.

    I can see it from the other point of view too though, and there may be one file that's just the key to understanding a bunch of your own story, but you can't possibly know what it would be until you come across it. It seems as if we are withholding useful information from you just to be miserable.

    I wish I knew what to propose. I haven't come up with anything practical yet, but perhaps you can see something that I can't...

  4. #704
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I have no personal story to contribute without understanding how it could be useful to you or to developing a shared story.
    yes, yes you do.. somewhere in there, you have your own little version of the hammer & chisel:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    fuck Fi, what about your Ti? do you have no urge to reach out for a core truth, for something more genuine then the sense of self, out into a larger world with all the things we can not see, such as those inside skulls other then our own? right now at the moment of you reading this, i am responsible for this arrangement of letters on your screens, i pressed buttons which caused them to appear in a certain way. i did not make the technology (and trust me - i would have liked too), i did not build the infrastructure, the circumstances where there to began with, but neither determined my choice, because there is an entity which awhile ago (from your perspective) has moved a mouse and pressed keys which resulted in the arrangement of letters you see before you, and i have control over that entity, that entity is me. i might have pressed wronggly and not noticed the typo, or maybe it all went according to plan, but within that larger world outside, the arrangement of letters is still my responsibility, i am the cause of it.
    certainly not all my interactions with these keys are intended - awhile ago i spilled coffee on the laptop, and trust that i had no intention to loose hours upon hours of access to my work while the laptop was being repaired - and there's certainly a reason for it, i am terribly clumsy, i have always being clumsy, years of 'practice' throughout my military service demanding intense situational and physical awareness and i am still freaking clumsy, the question of how i didn't blow myself up aside, it's pretty safe to say my clumsiness isn't something i am likely to fundamentally change. also, in my area of work (fittingly - java coding), i need to stay up and alert for hours while working, i have every reason to drink a lot of coffee.
    so there you have it, circumstances, unintended consequences, and very good reasons. yet the causality of the consequences is the entity which is me, which i have control over. it is thus my responsibility. just like the arrangement of letters right now on the screen.
    i see myself in the event of actions, and identify the entity which is me. i didn't think of placing the coffee cup further away from the laptop before getting up because i didn't account for those unintended consequences. i could have being more thoughtful about my physical arrangement, and i wasn't, thus it is my fault.

    i see myself in the events.
    i recognize my bad choice.
    i placed my belief in my general competence aside to acknowledge i was wrong.

    what is so different about that when the consequences is in the experience of others?
    why would you need Fi for that?
    find that story, take all the information you have about the other's experience (what they are saying), and take your own information about your experience (reasons, causes, etc), and apply to the agents involved to create a bigger story involving everyone's perspective.

    now it's rarely going to be instant, Ti is - probably (see question mark in sig) - introverted for a reason, but it's there, in fact you wouldn't have being able to reach some of the conclusions you reached right here if it wasn't.

  5. #705
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    ...judging by the other half of that very same post your quoting:

    seems like we're in agreement... in fact it seems like that was exactly the point.
    Oh, I saw your point. You were trying to point out that the INFJs were being hypocritical for telling you to not generalize your experience with your wife to all INFJs, and yet they were generalizing their own personal experiences to all INFJs. I got it. I even saw it as it was happening.

    There is one little thing that makes a difference, though. Experience. So far, what I've seen other INFJs* saying is that they are generalizing based on their experiences with the other INFJs on the forum. For me, if you interact with me enough to actually get to know me, then I might be more willing to listen to what you have to say about my flaws in a general sort of way. I think I might have even said something to that effect in the Doorslamming thread.

    That said, you have a valid point. Hopefully, you realize that we all (humans) are hypocritical at times. You, me, everybody. Because otherwise it's annoying to be beaten over the head about a flaw that I have, when you have it too. (That was some irony, since you've been beaten over the head with it, too! And round and round we go again. You! No, you!)



    P.S. I know I still owe you a reply to a previous post. Hopefully, I'll be able to get to it by tomorrow.


    *And INFPs, too, since they were asked the same question and indicated that they speak for their group out of experience, also.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  6. #706
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    That said, you have a valid point. Hopefully, you realize that we all (humans) are hypocritical at times. You, me, everybody. Because otherwise it's annoying to be beaten over the head about a flaw that I have, when you have it too. (That was some irony, since you've been beaten over the head with it, too! And round and round we go again. You! No, you!)


  7. #707
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Why do you care, Mane? Stop butting in!
    INFPs, what do INFJs do that drives you nuts?-whydoicare-jpg

    whydoicare.jpg

  8. #708
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    NO. Because you want to talk about your ex-wife. This thread is not about your ex-wife. People are getting somewhere in their talks and you're being distracting. Start a thread about your ex, if you want to, but this is not the place to meddle with the process.

  9. #709
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    NO. Because you want to talk about your ex-wife. This thread is not about your ex-wife. People are getting somewhere in their talks and you're being distracting. Start a thread about your ex, if you want to, but this is not the place to meddle with the process.
    I think he already has... or maybe it's just that every thread he posts in soon turns into one about his ex-wife.

  10. #710
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    It's on the verge of trolling and needs to stop, imo.

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