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  1. #691
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    For example, although Z Buck, Tilty, cascadeco, and fia may express themselves slightly differently, they all have shared reactions and ideas individually and in a few threads and seem to follow a pretty similar course of thought, or else they would feel comfortable clarifying if they disagreed with me. With Puddle River, AA, Eillonwy (sp) and the others, I have a less extensive history, but the sentiments they express line up pretty well. Therefore, I feel comfortable using we, with the underlying understanding that I don't really consider myself as a spokesperson and am open to correction.
    Just popping in to affirm this. I am comfortable with Fidelia, Cascadeco, Fia, ZBuck, et al saying "we," knowing that includes me. And I feel comfortable using "we," believing that if any other INFJs feel differently, they'll acknowledge the commonality, point out the individual difference, and go on with the discussion. We're speaking of ourselves as representatives of our type.

  2. #692
    It's always something... PuddleRiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    In my case, I got a clear message in childhood that expressing emotion of any kind was inappropriate and other people did not want to deal with my emotions. Even "I am angry" didn't cut it. I think that this is also a strong message that comes from the culture/society in which I grew up. So, you could add this as a third reason.
    Same with me. Weird.
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  3. #693
    It's always something... PuddleRiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Just popping in to affirm this. I am comfortable with Fidelia, Cascadeco, Fia, ZBuck, et al saying "we," knowing that includes me. And I feel comfortable using "we," believing that if any other INFJs feel differently, they'll acknowledge the commonality, point out the individual difference, and go on with the discussion. We're speaking of ourselves as representatives of our type.
    I'm comfortable with it as well, and very appreciative.
    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay one invincible summer."
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    A Christian's life may be the only Bible some people ever read.
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    "The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them" Maya Angelou.
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    I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ" Gandhi
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  4. #694
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    [usual disclaimer: I'm not caught up- there's a few pages here I still haven't read- but I'm posting anyway.]


    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I see. Yes it is difficult. The problem from a NFP perspective is that we don't really think in those terms, either in how we read someone else or how we present ourselves.

    In OA's case it could totally be both : ie. she is both a victim and someone simply making herself out to be. The NFP thinks, "People get a bit dramatic when they're angry or hurt, so sometimes they might inadvertently misrepresent the situation or talk in hyperbole. That's no reason for me to completely disregard what they're saying" - this comes back to what I was saying about emotions being merely signs and not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We then try to mine what we can from what is said, to find nuggets of truth (ie. search for the essence), without worrying too much about the 'veils' (ie. the anger, pain, and possible misrepresentation). To us finding those nuggets is a sign that there is value in what that person is saying. That is verification to us that she is, at least in part, not making it all up and falsely making herself the victim; that she isn't entirely blinded by a ridiculously bad interpretation of the events involved or by some personal vendetta against INFJs.
    It’s not like it’s one or the other to me either. But there are some people where the ratio of seeming to be completely unaware of the extent to which they seem to feel entitled to directing others to think or believe what they want exceeds the extent to which they actually did deal with ‘cruelty’ of some sort is the determining factor. And a lot of that, I believe, can be gleamed from how much a person directly demonstrates feeling entitled to making us- here in the forum, as people interacting with this person- thinking or believe what they want without feeling obligated to listen in turn. Like I said, it’s not fool proof, but it’s still relatively effective. Where “INFJ trauma” has been cried- I have noticed that people either get aggressive and even angry that their opinion isn’t swallowed in it’s entirety (indicating someone who regularly feels entitled to directing others) or they just stick to their thought pattern by not being able to break out of a looping cycle they are stuck in; the latter, I’d say, has possibly dealt with the kind of INFJ who is so blinded by their own coping mechanisms that they really can’t see they’re causing harm (I say this because I’ve been there, I’ve been stuck in that looping pattern and I believe it really is ultimately about just wanting that INFJ's narcissistic behavior- and the hurt they caused- to make sense). The former however, I won’t lie, I suspect the INFJ fled because the person is unbearable. My point here is that I don’t see it in black or white either- but think the ratio will usually lean in more one direction or the other.

    [fwiw: I don’t have a congealed opinion in this regard about OA. My preliminary guess is that while she’s definitely driving INFJs away with the issues she’s accumulated, I’m inclined to think (because of the way she’s described it) the issues are more because of some badly behaved INFJs than not. I can’t say I believe the same about everyone who shows up complaining about us though.]

    And one final thing, thank you for saying you feel contempt in such circumstances. I think that is part of what we NFPs sensed, but couldn't really put into words. This is partly what I meant about mixed messages - saying you're willing to engage on one hand, and then appearing a little contemptuous on the other. This is also why I said it felt like the INFJs were biting their lips early on in the thread; we sensed latent hostility behind the attempts to engage. OrangeAppled (perhaps having experienced this before) reacted more strongly too it and became more hostile in response. Whereas, others like PB and myself (not having any particular wounds to be reopened) tried to clear up the Essence of problems as we sensed it. I suppose (again, Ne sometimes takes a while to work out what even it's entirely on about) we wanted you to see past the ('veil' of) negativity of OA's post and how she might have some good points regardless, and then that ('veil' of) contempt would disappear and a useful conversation would eventuate.
    I had a rather bad reaction to this^, and then read this:

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Does it seem just as out of nowhere/unnecessary/intrusive to try to recreate your thought patterns as it does to us to recreate someone else's feelings as if you were experiencing them? If so, I can better appreciate just how frustrating our responses must be throughout the thread, as it would appear that we are talking about and attempting to do two completely different things. I remember soon after coming here, telling someone about some experience and even in print feeling their deer in the headlights response of not knowing how to respond in the moment, while they tried to feel exactly how I was feeling. I found the response puzzling as it was totally foreign to me at the time and seemed self-centred somehow. I can see better though if it mirrors my need to understand someone's path of thinking, it is necessary for understanding the situation and trying not to do that is like purposefully becoming blind or deaf and then trying to navigate an unfamiliar situation.
    Yep.

    I do not consider that initial ‘charged’ feeling- of feeling some sort of urgency to clear up what’s going on- to be “contempt”. I reserve “contempt” for the kind of feeling that isn’t transient and doesn’t go away once the smoke has cleared. I was annoyed by *something* and I’ve been trying, in this thread, to work out what that *something* is. I think mostly it’s exacerbating to have someone feel the need to want to point it out in the moment- before the smoke has cleared- because it’s like forcing an issue to me. That’s the kind of thing that someone else will get wrong if they try to label it- like, 999 times out of 1000- so yeah, unnecessary and intrusive sums it up. It seems weird to me because trying to hurry that kind of assessment (figure out what the feeling is before it’s had a chance to even settle) will usually result in the assessment being wrong. Even if I try to put labels to it myself, they are usually wrong (in the moment). So it’s beyond foreign to me that anyone could immediately *need* that information from me…..I don’t even have immediate access to it myself.

    And going back a ways… (and hopefully this answer the question about the parenthetical statement as well)

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    It seems like playing stupid? Wow. That's a really manipulative thing to do, and it's not something I want to come across as at all.

    Can you offer advice on presenting that "raw batter" in a way that's not seen as a finalised conclusion? I thought OA did that (in some places) and that I've been doing it too by offering disclaimers, but now I wonder if this is not the way to get it across to Pi users.
    I’m not very good at coming up with ‘how to’ stuff because I’m not very good at memorizing & applying it myself (and so, I have no idea if there’s a way to say it that would be helpful). I’m not very good at memorizing surface instructions or ‘rules’ of anything where interpersonal interaction is concerned. The only way I learn how to get along better is if I directly understand the reasoning behind the ‘rules’. And so the only way I know how to answer this is to explain why the ‘raw batter’ is ‘raw batter’.

    I mentioned that Fi’ers are more tolerant of someone complaining about their shoe getting scuffed because they stepped on someone else’s foot- whereas FJs are more likely to react with “Are you kidding me?” The problem with hearing Ji/Pe’s ‘story’- instead of presenting a story to serve as a proposed synopsis of ‘shared reality’- it can be very simply “this is how I was affected.” But in esse, ‘raw batter’ sounds very much like “Me. Me me me.” We hear this as someone attempting to propose a synopsis of ‘shared reality’ because that’s what we present ourselves. We survey the situation, take all relevant points of view into account and come up with a crude synopsis to work with. Singling out our own story in the beginning seems superfluous- that stuff is refined privately afterwards. It’s like “okay, let’s start with this and then if there’s something that turns up later in the way we process it, we can discuss it later”. So your “This is how I was affected” response to our proposed ‘shared story’ turns into “Hmmm….here’s what I actually think the shared story is: me, and maybe even a little more me.” It’s why that exaggerated summary Starry left is actually an accurate translation of what it sounds like (imo)- I mean, right down to reciprocating the so-called ‘unvarnished truth’ aspect (because let's face it- 'unvarnished truth' is just an impression, not ‘altered’ to sound more diplomatic or take ‘fairness’ into account because that would be ‘dishonest’?). Like- I knew full well when I read it that it doesn’t even begin to reflect what OA’s argument was *supposed* to be, but it brought ‘clarity and relief’ by making a caricature of how it was coming across.

    In ongoing analogy terms: we look at the size, see if it’s in our price range, we cut it down to the barest essentials to suit our “2 garments per visit” threshold for discussion. You guys ‘bake’ it aloud against each other- we can’t do that, it needs to bake internally. So when you guys walk up to the dressing room with your arms absolutely full of clothes that haven’t been baked at all- I think the lazy Ni assessment (the first thing that comes to mind, what it would mean if we were the ones doing it) is that you’re presenting “Me me me. Also: me. The spaghetti? That’s me too. The shared story should be all about meeeeeeeeee.” But really you’re presenting “this is the affect this had on me” in hopes of hearing something similar in return (which we actually can’t give, because we aren’t immediately in touch with our own story enough to be able to do that)? It’s like you really do need to see stuff on in the mirror before figuring out it will or will not work? And by trading enough “this is the affect it had on me” with each other, a ‘shared story’ is built from that….whereas we (Ni) want the most succinct possible initial ‘shared story’ so that we can get to work on figuring out what it *really* is….and then come back with the new version to ‘try on’ in a mirror, rinse and repeat.

    [I have no idea how much sense I’m making anymore. This thread. OMG. I’m at the point where I’m not sure I know what words mean.]

    I presume this is the equivalent of INFJs coming across like (as Saturned wrote): “YOU’RE A HORRIBLE PERSON WHO DOES HORRIBLE UNICORN KILLING THINGS.” Just hearing that makes me (and note to self: put up walls around Fi’ers, because clearly they hear secret messages telling them I have opinions that I don’t actually have). I’m not going to presume I understand the exact Ji/Fi process, how the lazy Ji assessment (the first thing that comes to mind, what it would mean if you were the ones doing it) finds that when we ask ‘why’…..but I know it’s nothing like what’s actually going through my head. Same with the thing about “Fe thinks it’s RIGHT”…..I don’t know what’s going on with that, but it I can’t help but suspect it’s the product more of not bending on command and Pe’s insistence of instant gratification. Not committing to a brand new assessment doesn’t mean I believe the one I’m working with is RIGHT- it just means I need to let both things cook to find out which one comes out on top.

    So how do we stop this mis-hearing of things? I don’t know, I guess we could either ask the other person to ‘do it differently’ (which as I explained, I personally am challenged at because it’s extraordinarily difficult for me to ‘memorize’ rules I don’t directly understand…so I certainly don’t expect anyone else to be able to) or just work on actually hearing it more for what it is ourselves. I prefer the latter method- of trying to understand how I’m mis-hearing.

    [If anyone can dissect how "Why did you do that?" turns into "YOU’RE A HORRIBLE PERSON WHO DOES HORRIBLE UNICORN KILLING THINGS", I'd love to hear it. I don't like that I might come across that way- but simply saying 'don't ask why' is kinda too hard for me to use.]
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  5. #695
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    @Z Buck McFate your post leaves me feeling seriously disillusioned...
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  6. #696
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    I had a feeling when I posted my least so variant brand of callousness might be bleeding through a bit too much. This thread has been like ‘the song that never ends’ since about 10 pages into it, and that brings a certain kind of exhaustion that makes it difficult to know when I’m being too callous. Maybe someone else can come along and give a lighter translation of what I said.

    It’s just, there’s a certain kind of “me me me” subtext- or what *seems* to be- in the FP approach sometimes. Because the focus first and foremost seems to be one’s own story and the immediate moment- at least more than for FJs. It’s not that the individual isn’t important- it’s just that we work that out afterward in a very lengthy internal process, one that is so vague it’s hard to talk about but it's constantly going on. I know how I feel about things- just not right away- and I think it’s important for others to know how they feel about things too. I just don’t understand this ‘talking about it right away’ stuff.

    I was trying to get at *why* it looks like ‘playing stupid’ or why it looks like manipulation, basically. Because it doesn’t occur to us to present our immediate impressions of our own story- and instead we present immediate impressions of ‘shared story’- it’s hard not to see someone present their own immediate impressions of their own story as trying to ‘guide’ the shared story in a really self absorbed way. But understanding all this better sheds light on the extent to which it *isn’t* someone trying to pass off “Me me me” as the ‘shared story’- that it’s simply presenting immediate impressions?

    I’m really hoping someone else can maybe say this in a less harsh way.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  7. #697
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i am just finding it very curious:

    For the INFPs to a lesser extent, because you somehow wouldn't expect that from Fi dom's (edit: yes, i do realize the irony).

    for the INFJs because so many of them where all pissed about how the many of the INFPs here (and later me as well) were making generalizations based on specific INFJs from their respective lives, and now many of the same INFJs are doing the same (given that the INFJs in their respective lives are themselves).

    and honestly, if i caught an ENTP doing that...
    Interesting point. So why is it the INFJ might seem like 'subject deflection' is a switched-to mode?
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  8. #698
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    I'm starting to think of this thread as a session of marriage counseling where the counselor is out of the room for long periods of time.

    Partner A: Tell me what bugs you about me.
    Partner B: You want to know what bugs me about you? Here you go.

    Partner A: Explains and defends.
    Partner B: Explains and defends back.

    Next door neighbor: I have issues with Partner A, too. Let me into this discussion.

    Partner A: Wow. Explains and defends.
    Partner B: Double wow. Explains and defends.

    Counselor: Small piece of insight.

    Partner A: Oh, I get what B is feeling!
    Partner B: Oh, I get what A is saying!

    A few more neighbors: Some defend/explain A, some defend/explain B.

    Partner A: Spaghetti.
    Partner B: Spaghetti? Unicorns!

    Partner A: Unicorns? Explains and defends.
    Partner B: Explains and defends.

    Next door neighbor: Blah, blah, blah.

    Counselor: Stuff.

    Partner A: More explaining and defending. Ad infinitum.
    Partner B: More explaining and defending. Ad infinitum.

    Partner A:
    Partner B:


    What would a marriage counselor suggest to break the stalemate and get each side to see the other's POV without hurting feelings even more than they have been?
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  9. #699
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    We're speaking of ourselves as representatives of our type.
    wait.. so what if it was my exwife doing that? or @OrangeAppled family member? or @Craic friend's ex? or even the infamous tunnel-visioned other INFJs from @Z Buck McFate life?

    would they get the honor of doing that? how would it make you feel if they did?

  10. #700
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    The thing here is that it only applies to a specific situation. Remember us talking about checking on people's credibility first? I feel like I have enough history with certain people on here to comfortably say that we react with similar impressions. I would not say that I can speak for all INFJs everywhere, but as new people come in and either agree or disagree, I keep refining my idea of what is more universal, and what is more individual (or a particular flavour of INFJ, perhaps influenced by enneagram). For example, I really don't identify with the INFJs that feel uncomfortable and put on the spot by people dropping by their house. I like that sort of thing. However, I've met enough of them to understand they comprise a certain subset of INFJs. A 4w5 sp INFJ will seem different than a 1w2 so INFJ.

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