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  1. #61
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    Possibly. However my criticism was not of your reasons for doing so, they are no doubt very different from my own and perhaps very well reasoned. My criticism was on the action itself and that basically there's nothing wrong with a bit of disruption to social harmony and the ethics of the group from time to time.
    Yes, I agree. I tend to disrupt social harmony while at work, by not jumping on the work bandwagon or towing the company line all of the time.

    Mostly, though... for me personally I have no beef with 'INFPs' or any type as a whole, I have beef with individuals within each type. I can't really disrupt any 'harmony' in this thread. Plus, I think harmony's not really present, anyway, so there's nothing to disrupt that isn't already kinda absent.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  2. #62
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    Possibly. However my criticism was not of your reasons for doing so, they are no doubt very different from my own and perhaps very well reasoned. My criticism was on the action itself and that basically there's nothing wrong with a bit of disruption to social harmony and the ethics of the group from time to time.
    You realize though that you feel this way because of your wiring, eh? There's nothing inherently wrong with valuing social harmony, and myself, as an Fi-dom so-dom, experience this weird dichotomy all of the time.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    You realize though that you feel this way because of your wiring, eh? There's nothing inherently wrong with valuing social harmony, and myself, as an Fi-dom so-dom, experience this weird dichotomy all of the time.
    Yes absolutely. That's why I included it under "my views" section at the bottom. It's an opinion and opinions are like assholes. Another one is that there is nothing inherently wrong with anything, thus nothing wrong with screwing social harmony. Anyhoo I am going to bed.

  4. #64
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    You're right, PB about the treating emotions carefully instead of ideas and I'd wager that part of the issue that OA mentioned (about INFJs not seeming to care that they have hurt other people) has to do with that same issue. For example, I feel confused and bewildered when someone treats something totally changeable and separate from my identity (my current emotion) as important, while ignoring the thing that I do count as mattering much more and having way more to do with me as a person.

    It wasn't until coming here that I even realized that other people don't all see their emotions in the same way as I do. I still find it difficult to know how to focus on and honour that part of things (particularly if there is not particular outcome that the person is stating they want so that they can feel better) and not feel that if we just come to agreement of terms, that will help to smooth things over and deal with the real issue! I think it is also why I resent the repeated accusation of Fe users just kissing a** or blowing smoke when I don't believe that they are doing that. I see their response as a reasonable way of trying to meet other people where they are at so that together we can reach an outcome that makes us both happy. When others don't use that method, it seems strange to me because often the reasons for them choosing their approach are not verbalized (introverted function). Only through discussion of Ni/Ti have I realized that I underverbalize what I falsely assume seems clearly there (so it would be obnoxious and condescending to say) or that I don't share a structure in my thinking because it is so ingrained that I've forgotten others don't share it. I feel like that has helped to start seeing why Fi users also don't tend to verbalize their reasoning, but I still feel like I'm kind of in no man's land, feeling my way in front of me. I've realized too that the outcome is the reason that I tend to overaccommodate (sometimes even in ways that other people don't want me to) if I can't foresee a negative exchange having any ultimate value in improving the situation.

  5. #65
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    I'm curious and want to try an experiment. I'm not trying to be a smartass by doing this; I'm genuinely curious as to how INFPs would read the following:

    There is a greater chance that the Middle East conflict will be solved than there is that INFJs and INFPs will come to an agreement. Nothing will ever change until the INFPs lose their condescending, dismissive attitude toward INFJs. It's doubtful that will ever happen. IF more INFPs acted the way Peacebaby acts, of course, it would be different. But you've got to look at the way things usually are, not to the exception to the rule. If the human race had only consisted of INFJs and INFPs, mankind would have destroyed itself long ago. Cooperation which is necessary for progress would have been impossible. In my own life, I now know (from finding out the hard way) that trying to get anything done that's meaningful with an INFP is a waste of time. The best I can do is hold no bitterness or ill will and try to be at peace. So, in case it isn't clear, I do believe it's impossible for INFJs and INFPs to understand each other no matter how hard they try. Once again, there will be some exceptions, but I'm just talking about as a general rule.
    All I did was take sorenx7's post and switch P and J, and put Peacebaby in for Silkroad (sorry to pick on you PB ). How does it come across to INFPs? Is this an example of how Te from us would look to you? In other words, is this how we should try to speak to you when we have an issue?

    *ETA: Here's one of my flaws...it takes me time to review what I've said/posted in my head and see it from other perspectives. With that in mind, I want to say that I was not trying to pick on sorenx7. The word "blunt" has been used a lot and I was wondering if the above was an example of that (Te bluntness) and if, perhaps, I was taking it in a way it wasn't intended.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  6. #66
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    @Eilonwy - it would read as harsh and would hurt me to read that, although as the token "reasonable" INFP I would be at least glad I was coming across as trying to meet in the middle.

    It's too polarized to be particularly helpful. Although a part of me would appreciate the brutal honesty aspect, the willingness for someone to state their true opinion to that degree.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #67
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    We treat your emotions carefully, but not your ideas. And vice-versa. See, above I'm more concerned that fia is feeling annoyed by this thread than I am about the veracity of the ideas put forth so far. I already know that their will be outlier opinions on either end of the scale, some who really love INFJ's and othrs who dislike, so I already weight those as to where they're coming from. So we add disclaimers sometimes, that we think you're great etc etc before rendering value assessments out loud. You ask us questions about our ideas and we feel like you're probing them as though you think they're incorrect and you thus come across as defensive. Just like we can too when trying to explain our emotional expressions.
    Can you elaborate on this? I'm not understanding it. Are you saying that we don't have to be careful of what you might feel, but we need to be careful of what you might think? Or are thinking? I'm not sure how to separate the two out.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  8. #68
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    @fidelia: If I may presume to speak for INFP's, I think most of us would say we look at all the viewpoints in the thread and look for the patterns. The patterns to us speak to the way ahead, but we'll make an action path for ourselves after seeing the aggregate of response. We aren't looking to be probed on it because each person's response will ring our Fi truth-o-meter. We'll feel the ring of rightness / wrongness from each poster and consider that some posts feel bitter, some feel aggrandizing, and we'll take all those little essences we glean from each post into account for credibility's sake.

    INFJ's look at the thread offerings, I think, wonder what the goal of the person sharing them is, and realize that there's little you can take away in terms of action points. And then I'm sure to your eyes, a whole bunch of negative ideas thrown out there seems to have the purpose of trying to denigrate. It might even seem like there's a kind of ganging-up taking place, and that will bring a bunch of INFJ's in too to try to do more probing for balance. Which to INFP eyes, just looks defensive and full of denial.

    So we both are looking for very different things in these threads I think. I want as much data as possible to fill out my Si mappings. You want action items so you can improve future interactions and understand why things go awry. Does that seem about right?

    My goal right now is to try to clarify based on these many interactions in the past and use that knowledge I've gained to a positive purpose. I already take most of what's in here with a grain of salt.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #69
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Can you elaborate on this? I'm not understanding it. Are you saying that we don't have to be careful of what you might feel, but we need to be careful of what you might think? Or are thinking? I'm not sure how to separate the two out.
    I'm saying that an INFP values their feelings being respected, and ideas - you can bat them around as much as you want. We attach our identity to our emotions and values, not to ideas and concepts.

    SO, if I say I am sad, an INFP would just want sympathy for the sadness, and in receiving that care, it allows us to experience the feelings and then process them, move forward from them. We want the feelings to be honored for what they are. We don't want to be told that how we feel is irrelevant, and we don't want to feel like no one cares about how we feel.

    Does that help? Any other INFP's chime in on this.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #70
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    @Eilonwy - it would read as harsh and would hurt me to read that, although as the token "reasonable" INFP I would be at least glad I was coming across as trying to meet in the middle.

    It's too polarized to be particularly helpful. Although a part of me would appreciate the brutal honesty aspect, the willingness for someone to state their true opinion to that degree.
    See, and this is confusing to me, too, because that is how I would read the original post.

    I've found there have been times when something said on the forum has provoked a reaction in me that has nothing to do with the person who said it, but everything to do with an issue I have in real life. My initial reaction has been to dislike, or get angry with, the forum person who said it, but if I step back and think, I realize that I'm projecting. There's the possibility that the forum person will be someone who I won't get along with, but I can't just assume that outright. In fact, the specific example that I'm thinking of was something said by someone I like very much, though I haven't interacted with them on the forum at all.

    Sometimes I've been guilty of typism, too. But then I step back and realize that it's more about individuals than whole types. I still end up back at we're all human and we all have faults. Some faults are deal-breakers and some aren't.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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