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  1. #681
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    In my case, I got a clear message in childhood that expressing emotion of any kind was inappropriate and other people did not want to deal with my emotions. Even "I am angry" didn't cut it. I think that this is also a strong message that comes from the culture/society in which I grew up. So, you could add this as a third reason.
    Yes, thank you, that's a great addition.

    In a huge irony to my post, I seldom express emotions myself, but I am working on un-suppressing my suppression. Here on the forum is a venue that I've tried to experiment with, being more open with emotions. Since they constitute the framework of my world, suppression has proven to be helpful more for short-term issues. I can't evade how I'm wired.

    That's why I say, when OA does it here, it's kind of a big deal to an INFP.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #682
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    good reads... and very confusing, at least for one aspect alone:

    can i ask (both INFx's): what's with all the "we" and "us" when referring to.. basically, your own experience within yourself?

    i mean, it seemed like the whole shenanigan and consequential conflicts here started from how other people seen members of your own type as representatives of your type and daring to generalize from one's own experience. why is this now done repetitively by both sides of the debate towards their own respective types?

    is this like that thing where i am allowed to make Jew-jokes but can frame anyone else who does that as antisemitic?

  3. #683
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    can i ask (both INFx's): what's with all the "we" and "us" when referring to.. basically, your own experience within yourself?
    A valid point and question. The answer for me: basically a handy short-hand, that although imprecise, conveys the meaning adequately. You'll note that all of us, INFJ and INFP, along the way somewhere, state disclaimers that we are not necessarily representative of all members of our type. I personally don't do that in every post of a thread, and I probably haven't done it for quite a while here.

    I personally don't think that's why the conflict started though.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #684
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    A valid point and question. The answer for me: basically a handy short-hand, that although imprecise, conveys the meaning adequately.
    what's shorter then the word "I"?

  5. #685
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I'd like to add too, that there's something about an Ni dom that can reduce my reservation about sharing emotional inner workings.

    I've wondered about this for quite a while and been kind of trying to articulate the why, but I'm not quite there yet.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #686
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    what's shorter then the word "I"?
    Nothing. What makes you object however?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #687
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Nothing. What makes you object however?
    i am just finding it very curious:

    For the INFPs to a lesser extent, because you somehow wouldn't expect that from Fi dom's (edit: yes, i do realize the irony).

    for the INFJs because so many of them where all pissed about how the many of the INFPs here (and later me as well) were making generalizations based on specific INFJs from their respective lives, and now many of the same INFJs are doing the same (given that the INFJs in their respective lives are themselves).

    and honestly, if i caught an ENTP doing that...

  8. #688
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    For the INFPs to a lesser extent, because you somehow wouldn't expect that from Fi dom's (edit: yes, i do realize the irony).
    As an so-dom, I do think in terms of "we" - of groups - quite a bit. It might be notable that SK is an so-dom as well, that may explain both of our tendencies to do that.

    But yes, I realize it's as presumptuous to generalize now as it was in the beginning. Should throw the disclaimers in and watch the terminology.

    Plus, I expect any INFP who reads through and disagrees will get a *ping* from their Fi-truth-o-meter and correct me from their perspective (if it matters enough to them.)
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #689
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I'm a so dom too, so that might account for some of it. However, I would only use we because of the particular contributors here and the history I have with them. For example, although Z Buck, Tilty, SilkRoad, cascadeco, and fia may express themselves slightly differently, they all have shared reactions and ideas individually and in a few threads and seem to follow a pretty similar course of thought, or else they would feel comfortable clarifying if they disagreed with me. With Puddle River, AA, Eillonwy (sp) and the others, I have a less extensive history, but the sentiments they express line up pretty well. Therefore, I feel comfortable using we, with the underlying understanding that I don't really consider myself as a spokesperson and am open to correction.

    In the other examples, someone has already had a negative history with the person in question, their behaviour doesn't really align with anything that seems very familiar to me, and I haven't met them, so can't really judge for myself about how much or little we are on the same page. At least for me, that is the distinction.
    Last edited by fidelia; 01-17-2013 at 07:52 PM.

  10. #690
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    You just made me think of something. I think the way we reassure people or let them know we are on their side is not playing devil's advocate until we are invited to and even then, by degrees checking at each stage to see what they can handle and how they are receiving the information. That doesn't necessarily mean whitewashing for the sake of harmony. It's just that it can't happen unexpectedly or all at once, or the person assumes that you don't like them and are on opposite sides. I think this is why the INFJs were so adament that inquiry has to start from similarities and a friendly perspective, while OA likened it to ripping a bandaid off slowly - both inefficient and unnecessary.
    Yeah, I'm not great at doing things like expressing myself by degrees and I would say it's a INFP trait too. INFJs are Fe+Ti which is kinda in the middle of the openness and expression of self 'spectrum'. Fi and Te are the two extremes, so it tends to go from zero to 100 then back to zero again. It's hard for me to find that balance.

    So when you are reassuring someone, what would that look like? I think there is a certain comfort that all INFJs find in discovering someone who understands them or who notices things that other people don't. That was one thing that my INFP friend was extraordinarily good at. She noticed a lot of the undertones that most people don't and quite intentionally, but quietly did things to help put people at ease or help them. So perhaps it just depends on degrees of relationship at how much of my inner world is openly talked about. Again, throwing the hints out there that you notice something, but not saying anything too directly is a good way to open the conversation, as it then allows the other person to either follow up on them or not as they feel comfortable. It seems to me that many NFPs are already pretty good at this.
    I usually try to validate their experience, and maybe offer examples of when I felt like that, as a way of showing I understand what they're feeling. If a friend is telling a story about an experience and I sense their frustration, I want to find a way to say, indirectly, "that must be frustrating". I figure people often feel circumspect about the validity of their feelings and sometimes want to hear, "it's OK to feel that". It's like I'm trying to undo all the self-doubt they may feel; the fear that they are being silly, unreasonable or overreacting; that they are all alone in feeling that way.

    On Saturday, I had a conversation with my ENFP friend (and her INTJ husband), where she told me about how her paternal grandmother had recently died. She's originally from China and her parents were over here on a long holiday, so when they found out it was this huge wrangle to pack up their things, cancel bookings and organise a flight for them back to China. She told it like a story rather than from the emotional angle (she's not much of a crier either), but I imagined it was a difficult time for her. She was saying about how stressful and how strangely sudden it was - how there was no time for grieving in the upheaval. She seemed to be stuck in a place where she felt terrible about what was happening to her dad but also was dealing with her own feelings. On top of that, she said that everyone has been saying to pass on condolences to her father but they aren't recognising that it was actually her grandmother too. I tried my best to listen and mirror her feelings - interpreting and then reframing what she said in a more distilled way to get at the emotional core. I asked questions about how they dealt with practical issues, to show I recognise all the stressors involved. I asked her if she was close to her grandmother (this I wouldn't usually do but it's an effort to be more Fe like and supportive). I told her a story about how when my parent started a round the world trip and only got as far as Hawaii when they got a phone call telling them that my Dad's father (whom he worshipped) had been killed in a car accident. I talked about what my mum said about the awful time they had. How they sat by the hotel pool, with my dad staring into space like a zombie, trying to pass the time before the next available flight home. How hard it was to be far away from home and feel useless at such a time. We talked about it for some time, until I felt she had gotten all the stuff that was in her head off her chest. I worried both in the moment and afterwards if I was being supportive enough. I wasn't very emotionally demonstrative; not doing the whole hugging and overt sympathy thing (I'm so bad at this). She seemed to respond very well to what I did say but I can't help worrying if she felt I didn't do enough...

    So, do you actually want to ask questions? Is it just that it feels too invasive to do so? What kinds of things would you usually be wishing to ask, but not feel free to? Again, remember that (at least INFJ Fe users) often have difficulties processing in the moment and also figuring out what they are thinking or feeling without actually verbalizing it. Therefore, you are not gossiping or being nosy, but you are doing a great and helpful service. We often forget to verbalize this, I think because we overassume that everyone processes in this way and we underestimate how taxing it can be on some people to go through this process, as we don't find it taxing ourselves. It's interesting (as it helps us understand the person better), it's a compliment to us that someone respects us enough to need our services, and we like to be helpful. So it's confusing to realize that when other people do this, they are doing a whole nother process under the surface as well and it's not as easy as just asking a few questions and showing some support.
    Of course, I want to ask those questions! Sometimes I'm dying to know more. A (ENTP) friend of mine once told me that her mother died of breast cancer when she was child. I had a million questions in my head. I wanted to know how young she was at at the time; whether it was slow or relatively sudden; what the experience was like from a child's perspective; how her dad and her family coped; I wanted to know if she felt she had really missed out on crucial things; whether it still effects her etc etc. Not only did I think these would be rather invasive, I felt my own curiosity too much - I felt that asking would be feeding my selfish need, rather than supporting her desire to speak about it. We did talk a little about it later on but it was about a specific aspect rather than a general tell all. I was too chicken and too self-conscious to ask much though - I did the whole talk around the issue to give her the chance to speak if she wants to thing, instead. The thing is I'm so bloody awkward about addressing such intimate details and this is another reason why I keep quiet.

    Yeah, I guess it's strange that we are both very private and very open. I mean, there's almost no question that I would feel offended at being asked, provided it was done with decent intentions. If I didn't feel comfortable answering, I'd probably say that directly. Mostly though, anything that's already been processed feels kind of impersonal to me, so it's no big deal to talk about. Anything that I'm working through and have revealed is of concern to me means that I'm open to talking about. It's only the stuff that is still highly emotional and just under the surface that I may not be ready yet to talk about and usually people don't even know about it (I mean, they may sense it's there, but that's about it).
    Really? I don't know... even if you say that, I'm still going to be pretty wary about it. The problem is, it's not just that I'm worried about being told to butt out, I'm worried about the things you wouldn't say. Like you might feel upset or grilled or that I'm being presumptuous without explicitly saying so and then would change how you behave towards me or look at me. On top of that, sometimes it's wrong to address certain things not just because it will upset someone, but because it's just wrong for me to bring it up.

    The thing is that I'm also keenly aware of how just much I know about people. I know deep, personal things that people would never imagine I could know -and I'm pretty sure I could almost guarantee that most people wouldn't ever want to talk about that stuff. Besides the fact, I fear there would be no way of phrasing it without it sounding presumptuous and obnoxious. If someone does invite me to discuss an issue openly I'm almost always going to really water down what I say, unless, perhaps if they ask what I really, seriously think.

    I agree that INFJs are a little bit difficult. I do sympathize with anyone dealing with me. There are some characteristics that even I feel are frustrating and I've lived in my head for a long time and know what's in there! I can only imagine how exasperating it would be if it's opposite to anything that you are familiar with seeing in the landscape of your own mind.
    No more so than the rest of us.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    So, if I feel your negative emotions under the surface, but you deny or don't state their existence, this is a mixed message to us. INFP's sense this emotional undertow, but when INFJ's don't say it (and usually you won't say it) your written words contradict what we are picking up from the interior message. In a sense I guess, it feels like a data mis-match. Kind of like your mis-match, but from a different angle.

    Obviously this mis-match is the primary source of our communication failings.
    Yes, the emotional undertow (great metaphor) as you put it is so significant to INFPs. Even if we're not pointing it out to others, usually we're getting a reading on it and reacting to it. We might not know what it means or even consciously register it, but we feel the pull on us. It helps us anticipate what others need from us or what we need to indirectly address in our behaviour toward that person, among other things.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    As an so-dom, I do think in terms of "we" - of groups - quite a bit. It might be notable that SK is an so-dom as well, that may explain both of our tendencies to do that.

    But yes, I realize it's as presumptuous to generalize now as it was in the beginning. Should throw the disclaimers in and watch the terminology.

    Plus, I expect any INFP who reads through and disagrees will get a *ping* from their Fi-truth-o-meter and correct me from their perspective (if it matters enough to them.)
    Yeah, I don't usually do the whole "we" thing when talking about INFPs. I worry that I'm going to overstep my bounds and start sounding like I presume to speak for all INFPs. This requires a whole lot of disclaimers, like "this might just be me", or "I'm not sure if this is true of all INFPs" etc. But Ne does want me to make generalisations and sometimes if I feel it's likely to be relatively universal, I'll say "we". I might still feel wary, but sometimes the generalisation needs to be made to clarify what I mean. If I made a sweeping generalisation and then other INFPs didn't relate, I would feel pretty bad.

    I do think that PB and I being So-firsts is a factor. So-firsts do like to generalise about differences between groups of people, because we find comparisons to be useful and revealling.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

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