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  1. #621
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I think maybe you're onto something.

    I would compare the white noise thing to letting someone know that they are stepping on my foot. They may not have intended to, and I'm assuming it wasn't intentional. As soon as they get off of my foot, then I can go and get them those cookies they wanted. The problem is over. It's only when they remain on my foot and I've stated it different ways that I start to wonder what is going on. In here, I feel like I am trying to be helpful by stating what the problem is, but it is seen as an intentional attempt to attribute bad motives to the other person. This confuses me, but there must be some kind of link that I am not seeing.

    I guess I when I look at cause and effect, I tend to factor in intentions of the person or why they are acting as they are. Often I think that no one intended real harm, even though nevertheless harm was done. Figuring out the why of it, helps me to either reframe what happens from a new perspective, or else it allows me to plan for how we could avoid the unfortunate outcome for next time. A lack of remorse is not making efforts to plan for a different outcome next time by adjusting one`s approach.

    If, (and I don't know about this, so I'm just throwing it out there), you instead are focussed on how anyone in the chain of responsibility made other people feel in the process, then perhaps validating and experiencing the feelings that transpired rather than avoiding the outcome next time is the focus. In this case, a lack of remorse would be not taking responsibility for creating certain feelings.

    Maybe us talking about creating white noise implies a sense of blame for uncomfortable feelings created, when we are just saying, "When you state things in this way, it slows down my processing ability and makes me unsure of what you are looking for".

    I`m realizing that Ne tends to talk more in specific situations rather than overall patterns. Therefore, what seems to me like a deeper criticism brought up in a specific situation, is only meant at face value. Perhaps there is an opposite equivalent of that regarding Fi or Si where a deeper criticism is implied even though we only mean it to be taken in a specific situation and at face value. I`m kind of thinking aloud here, so I haven`t really had time to test that out.

    That doesn't really explain the "something about this does not make sense" equalling a doubt of sincerity though. Although maybe it was because the people in her INFJ experience did not taking responsibility for the feelings they created, it indicated a lack of awareness or remorse. Maybe INFJ and INFP focus on different aspects of the problem and so remorse looks slightly different to each of them?

    I don't know. Maybe I'm way out in left field.

  2. #622
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I've been doing some more thinking about what PB said. Taking a simplistic approach, consider the book Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus. While I don't agree with everything in it, essentially the author is attempting to delineate common speech patterns that each sex uses and what the other sex (sometimes unexpectedly to the speaker) takes away from it.

    The onus is on both parties to restrict their communication style to what is going to be palatable to the other if resolution is the goal. Therefore, should you provide me with a similar set of restrictions, I would make efforts to limit my communication style to not include anything offensive. Yes, it is not like communicating freely in your own native language, but it also achieves the end results you are wishing for.

    I don't see it as INFJs requesting that people only communicate in their language. It's more like going to another country where the A OK sign can be misinterpreted to mean "asshole". If it matters to you not to convey the message of "asshole" when you mean "a-ok" then you change what you do. I'm open to INFPs saying, "When you do this, it sets off my emotional white noise to such an extent that I find it difficult to continue the conversation openly. In my language, that statement implies X." This is all I am aiming for understanding. I'm not really sure when I am doing something offensive and what message you get from it. Neither group will feel they can let it all hang out, but both will interact with each other much more effectively.

  3. #623
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Is it.....hard for Fi'ers to imagine getting stifled by 'white noise' without necessarily doubting someone else's intentions? The way this keeps coming back to ‘good intentions’- as if, without exception “having furniture thrown in my path = other person does not have good intentions”- is puzzling to me. Someone can have the best of intentions and still have a message laden with the kinds of mixed signals that stop us in our tracks and prevent us from moving forward. We’ve stated this outright many times, yet it keeps coming back up. It really is kind of baffling to me how these seem inexorably linked to Fi’ers. It seems to me that misunderstandings and/or hurt feelings are the product of actual intention to misunderstand or hurt feelings far less often than not in life, so why is there so clearly an 'implied' connection to Fi'ers?

    This isn't directed at PB- especially if she wants to back out of the thread- just anyone who can answer. Even in the beginning, OA kept equating "something about this does not make sense" with "I doubt your sincerity". What's up with that?
    Yes, I guess it hard for us to detach the two. We feel your irritation, and you pull away. We feel your wariness. We take it a little personal.

    And as a metaphor person (since I probably employ them every other post lol) both felt to me like INFP's were on the bumbling / inept / histrionic / stoopid or careless end of the equation. In both metaphors, we are the obstacle or we make the obstacle. There's nothing in there that implies INFJ's have any ownership of or play any role in the communication breakdown. You'll have to forgive me that I read into them that deeply I suppose. But I do try to make metaphors myself that don't make an object lesson at what seems to be the expense of someone else.

    In Tilty's, we're in the kitchen, banging away, slopping sauce all over the place, holding a box labelled "spaghetti" and standing there with our eyes crossed calling it something else. In yours, we are throwing furniture in your path, making you painfully follow us around trying to navigate these hazards we carelessly obstruct you with - and the only way to do that is with intention. No one picks up a chair and throws it around the room by accident, do they? So ... it's a little hard for me to feel comfortable placing myself within that metaphor. I realize they are exaggerated with intent too perhaps. They just don't leave me feeling too good about the portrait, is all.

    Now, maybe I am just stretching the metaphors too far, or I am being nit-picky. It would be fair to criticize me on that point. But the equality of the interaction is important to me. It's not about us being ditzes.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    If, (and I don't know about this, so I'm just throwing it out there), you instead are focussed on how anyone in the chain of responsibility made other people feel in the process, then perhaps validating and experiencing the feelings that transpired rather than avoiding the outcome next time is the focus. In this case, a lack of remorse would be not taking responsibility for creating certain feelings.
    I like that, but it's a bit of both. I feel its important to validate feelings along the way in addition to trying to take away lessons to help prevent negative outcomes in the future. With INFJ's it feels hard to get you to take some ownership of what you do that creates the breakdown though. It's a 50 / 50 thing to me.

    Maybe us talking about creating white noise implies a sense of blame for uncomfortable feelings created, when we are just saying, "When you state things in this way, it slows down my processing ability and makes me unsure of what you are looking for".
    I agree. Then, you make our "white noise" with an emotional reaction to our "white noise" and we are both left somewhat confused by what just happened! We want to treat your emotions, you need us to remove the emotions. ha, it's kind of funny really.

    That doesn't really explain the "something about this does not make sense" equalling a doubt of sincerity though. Although maybe it was because the people in her INFJ experience did not taking responsibility for the feelings they created, it indicated a lack of awareness or remorse. Maybe INFJ and INFP focus on different aspects of the problem and so remorse looks slightly different to each of them?
    Te does the same thing, and we read that as a lack of confidence in our ability when that's not necessarily intended either. With Fe, we feel your emoting and the intention of that, which is to say back off. We don't really hear the why, so we personalize it as a lack of confidence in our intention. Perhaps? Thinking out loud ...

    @bold: I suspect yes, that would align with OA's experience. Plus, if a door-slam was involved, there's no going back, you're stuck doing the work alone with no back and forth to bring peace, and left holding the bag of blame bestowed upon you by the INFJ. (eta: "bag of blame" not intended to inflame here. Just describing what it may feel like to be left with no recourse to continue discussion.)

    @bold purple: Yes, I think I've touched on that already too. I do think there's a difference, you see remorse differently? For me, remorse is about regret for how I made you feel - thus, I feel bad that I made you feel bad, whether or not it was intended or my fault. I'll take ownership of your feelings, even if I'm not even involved in the problem. How does remorse play out for you? How would you describe it?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #624
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    For me, remorse is about regret for how I made you feel - thus, I feel bad that I made you feel bad, whether or not it was intended or my fault. I'll take ownership of your feelings, even if I'm not even involved in the problem.
    If you're not involved in the problem, how did you make me feel bad? Just by existing? By possessing certain traits that might bug me?

    If I get involved in the problem, for example, by posting in this thread, then I will feel responsible for any of my actions in this thread that made people feel bad. In fact, I've apologized for two actions that made people feel bad in this thread. But if I never was involved in the thread, would I still have to take responsibility? For what, exactly?

    In an aside, I have no idea how my tone comes across. To me, I think what I wrote sounds a bit harsh. I want you to know that it's not meant that way. I'm asking in order to gather information because I honestly don't see how what you said about remorse is different from how I feel about remorse (I don't think I've ever stated it quite that way in this thread, so I won't say that you should have gleaned it from what I have said), except for the part about not being involved.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  5. #625
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    To me remorse is displayed by ceasing to do whatever it was that made the person feel bad and trying to help them clean up the damage incurred. If I didn't directly cause those feelings, I don't feel remorseful for someone feeling them though, and I'm finding it difficult to wrap my head around why others might. I'm not invalidating what you are saying, but I need a little help to understand what makes you feel responsible for something you didn't actually do.

    In here, I do not see all of the NFP crowd as being part of one group, but rather as a collection of different individuals with different approaches and different personal histories with me. Therefore, if one offends, it is not another's job to apologize. The only thing they can do is try to help translate it into terms I understand. If someone is having trouble with one of the people from my "group", I might try to help them improve the situation, but I don't feel responsible if my own actions did not result in them feeling badly.

    I sometimes need to have pointed out to me that while my intention was not to hurt, it did result in hurt occurring, in which case I will try to determine how to keep that from happening again, even if it was inadvertent. The other person's feelings of hurt indicate to me that something I did was wrong and needs to be altered. In some cases, you can't fix things that easily and that is where a true apology and forgiveness come in.

    After awhile, if great lengths have been gone to to make amends (to no avail), the other person's needs are not being communicated to me so that I can do better in the future, or if I am being asked to take responsibility for something that I didn't do (such as other INFJs being unkind in the past to someone else), then I lose patience and start distancing myself. In short, my goals are solution-oriented and when someone doesn't seem to have an intended outcome in mind, then their intention for talking about an issue seem really hazy to me. I'm wondering if maybe your goals are more centred around feeling, but I'm not sure what they would be then.

    Perhaps this is why we disagreed earlier in the thread about what remorse was?

    I can see that you are feeling increasingly uncomfortable with the amount of onus that's on you because it is not fair in your eyes. My problem is that in practical terms, I'm really not sure what to do with that. It's not that I want things to be unfair, or that I think that you aren't allowed to feel that way.

    As extreme as this example might be, it kind of feels like approaching someone to work things out, but then lacing the conversation with racial slurs. You can even say, "Oh, just ignore that, so and so isn't really a racist person and is just trying to understand your cultural group better because she's had negative experiences in the past. She grew up in an area where that's how people talk, but she doesn't mean anything personal by it". The problem is that the racial slurs are so distracting and so contradictory to the intention that the conversation purportedly was started for, that until the conversational approach is changed, no one will get anywhere with it. Yes, it may be restricting to monitor one's speech like that, but if it is in the interest of good communication, why not? If someone points out that something is distracting and offensive to them, does it feel like they are saying that YOU are distracting and offensive and are not allowed to be your authentic self?

    Maybe it feels to you like a couple that get together who speak different native languages. It seems unfair for all the communication to be done in one language, as there are certain nuances in the native tongue that simply do not exist in the other person's language and it also puts one partner at a slight disadvantage conversationally, even if they have a pretty good working knowledge of the language. I guess what I'd say is that it does have to go back and forth, but there is the restriction of what can be expressed in either language, where you are, who else is present (and what languages they know), what the purpose of your communication is, if both partners have an equal level of fluency and so on.

    What do you think?

    edit: As I'm thinking about this, I think Fi takes a more collective responsibility for things than Fe. Just as Fi is more judicious about where it shows sympathy, but then really goes all out, Fe is a little more loose with sympathy but it's in a more detached, impersonal way. Maybe this is why Fi feels that we are responsible not only for ourselves, but for all of the people that represent us who may have caused hurt as well. Or I might be totally wrong!

  6. #626
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Hope I'm not stepping on your toes by doing this, PB.

    In answer to my latest post, @PeaceBaby brought to my attention a private matter where I apologized to Person A for something that Person B said that I found overly harsh, as an example of not being involved, yet, taking responsibility for Person A's feelings.

    In response to that, I did see myself as involved in the matter of Person A and Person B because I was involved in the discussion, even though I wasn't directly responsible for the harsh remark. So, to extrapolate to this thread, I see myself as involved with OA's problem because I'm part of the thread, but I don't see myself as responsible for the original hurt caused by her INFJ, though I do feel bad that her feelings were hurt in the first place. To me, it's the difference between saying I'm sorry that her feelings were hurt (by someone else), and saying that I'm sorry I hurt her feelings. Before I got involved in the thread only the first would be true for me. After I got involved in the thread, the second might come into play also.

    Are we still saying different things? Is the distinction I made not one you would make?
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  7. #627
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    To me remorse is displayed by ceasing to do whatever it was that made the person feel bad and trying to help them clean up the damage incurred. If I didn't directly cause those feelings, I don't feel remorseful for someone feeling them though, and I'm finding it difficult to wrap my head around why others might. I'm not invalidating what you are saying, but I need a little help to understand what makes you feel responsible for something you didn't actually do.
    Yes, I need a good example for you and Eilonwy. Working on it. The first thing that comes to mind is something like ... the Government of Canada apologizing for the hurt done to aboriginal peoples by Church Schools. Let me think and expand on it. It's not that I am responsible, it's that I can feel by proxy and represent. Something like that. Please forgive that it's not at the tip of my tongue, I'll try to work it through.

    In here, I do not see all of the NFP crowd as being part of one group, but rather as a collection of different individuals with different approaches and different personal histories with me. Therefore, if one offends, it is not another's job to apologize. The only thing they can do is try to help translate it into terms I understand. If someone is having trouble with one of the people from my "group", I might try to help them improve the situation, but I don't feel responsible if my own actions did not result in them feeling badly.
    Yes, I feel similarly. It's not that I wouldn't apologize on OA's behalf, it's in this situation I think I would be offending her if I did, since I am trying to support her overall aim of finding resolution. But, I would, if that's what it took to restore good faith. Part of that is my e9 though.

    After awhile, if great lengths have been gone to to make amends (to no avail), the other person's needs are not being communicated to me so that I can do better in the future, or if I am being asked to take responsibility for something that I didn't do (such as other INFJs being unkind in the past to someone else), then I lose patience and start distancing myself. In short, my goals are solution-oriented and when someone doesn't seem to have an intended outcome in mind, then their intention for talking about an issue seem really hazy to me. I'm wondering if maybe your goals are more centred around feeling, but I'm not sure what they would be then.
    Let me think of the goals. It's not a way I usually think.

    Perhaps this is why we disagreed earlier in the thread about what remorse was?
    I still don't think remorse is the right word, because it takes us in a direction that is an emotional misdirect. But, since I have no better, I will need to ruminate on this more too.

    I can see that you are feeling increasingly uncomfortable with the amount of onus that's on you because it is not fair in your eyes. My problem is that in practical terms, I'm really not sure what to do with that. It's not that I want things to be unfair, or that I think that you aren't allowed to feel that way.
    No worries! I'm not uncomfortable, I can deal with things the way they are, it's just great for you to see it a bit from my pov. Really, I feel like you kind of are placing yourself in my shoes atm and I really appreciate it.

    As extreme as this example might be, it kind of feels like approaching someone to work things out, but then lacing the conversation with racial slurs. You can even say, "Oh, just ignore that, so and so isn't really a racist person and is just trying to understand your cultural group better because she's had negative experiences in the past. She grew up in an area where that's how people talk, but she doesn't mean anything personal by it". The problem is that the racial slurs are so distracting and so contradictory to the intention that the conversation purportedly was started for, that until the conversational approach is changed, no one will get anywhere with it. Yes, it may be restricting to monitor one's speech like that, but if it is in the interest of good communication, why not? If someone points out that something is distracting and offensive to them, does it feel like they are saying that YOU are distracting and offensive and are not allowed to be your authentic self?
    Well, in your extreme example, just imagine that the person talking to you doesn't really realize what the racial slurs are that you find offensive. Oh, maybe she knows one or two words that are taboo, but additionally you are hearing not only those slurs but ones that are inadvertent slurs and then you are making more inferences about her perspective because of them. And your annoyance grows, and it's not hidden ...

    I repped you near the beginning of this whole convo something to this effect, to try to filter out some of the negative. This metaphor doesn't work as well though because maybe it is a bit too extreme ...

    What if you just flat out said, "Your negative tone makes it difficult for me to hear you, although I very much wish to listen and help if I can." Is that possible?

    Maybe it feels to you like a couple that get together who speak different native languages. It seems unfair for all the communication to be done in one language, as there are certain nuances in the native tongue that simply do not exist in the other person's language and it also puts one partner at a slight disadvantage conversationally, even if they have a pretty good working knowledge of the language. I guess what I'd say is that it does have to go back and forth, but there is the restriction of what can be expressed in either language, where you are, who else is present (and what languages they know), what the purpose of your communication is, if both partners have an equal level of fluency and so on.
    Yes, I like this example. I know how to speak your language better though, albeit imperfectly. I only know how, not because I am wonderful or anything, but because it's the way of the world. Fi is not. It means I have an advantage, here. But I feel like you are acknowledging that my language exists. You are hearing it more.

    Doesn't it feel, right now between you and I, that we are closer to speaking each other's language, or maybe we're making a third where we meet in the middle ground? You're not charged with ... frustration or cynicism. You're not worried about where we're going. You don't feel hurt and I can tell, your mind is open and I can feel that too. Me, I'm trying my best not to inject my posts with any unintended tone while still letting myself type fairly freely. You're asking questions and creating examples that don't seem to paint you as being the primary arbiter of objective reality.

    It's nice.

    What do you think?
    I like it.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #628
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    So, to extrapolate to this thread, I see myself as involved with OA's problem because I'm part of the thread, but I don't see myself as responsible for the original hurt caused by her INFJ, though I do feel bad that her feelings were hurt in the first place.
    I agree that you are NOT responsible for the hurt caused by the original INFJ. But the cool thing is that you can serve as a proxy to an INFP. Probably to any Fi person.

    I'll expand on this too, if it would be helpful? This is too fresh in my mind to express that way I want to.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    So, to extrapolate to this thread, I see myself as involved with OA's problem because I'm part of the thread, but I don't see myself as responsible for the original hurt caused by her INFJ, though I do feel bad that her feelings were hurt in the first place. To me, it's the difference between saying I'm sorry that her feelings were hurt (by someone else), and saying that I'm sorry I hurt her feelings. Before I got involved in the thread only the first would be true for me. After I got involved in the thread, the second might come into play also.

    Are we still saying different things? Is the distinction I made not one you would make?
    I'm surprised this point is still being stated on page 64. I thought this had been established on Page one. Heck I wrote a response to this very statement back on page 6 or 7 or so (I do not recall) and it's still being discussed? Fuck me.

  10. #630
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    I'm surprised this point is still being stated on page 64. I thought this had been established on Page one. Heck I wrote a response to this very statement back on page 6 or 7 or so (I do not recall) and it's still being discussed?
    Come here dear Standuble ...

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    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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