User Tag List

First 1151596061626371 Last

Results 601 to 610 of 941

  1. #601
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    MBTI
    INfJ
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    3,682

    Default

    @PeaceBaby, it's like I explained in the PM. Sometimes when Fi'ers ask something, it's like hearing "So this is what color I want to talk about. What does it taste like to you?" The difference in skylight's post is that she gave specific examples to go on, to help show exactly what kind of response is being sought. Otherwise, I know I have no idea what to do with it, and at least a couple other INFJs have said the same- often times it's so vague I can't even figure out how to ask what they're looking for (because I can't even tell if they're 'looking for something' vs. just venting). There have been several times on the forum when a Fi'er asks something and I have no clue what they're trying to get at.

    It reminds me of when Orobas has brought up 'Fe clues' in the workplace- like, working with a Fe'er I guess it seems like there are certain 'cues' about getting things done with another person. Speaking in Ti fragments doesn't mean anything to her, it's just gobblety-gook, she wants very clear direction. I suspect it's the same thing, only in reverse.


    eta: and also like I said in PM- sometimes if we're left with the question, eventually on my own (in the course of some later day) something will 'click' and I'll realize it does sorta have a taste. I want to say maybe this is a Si thing? It's like that information really isn't readily available to me, I can't pull it up on a moment's notice, but if I leave the question gestating in my mind sometimes an understanding of 'taste' will emerge on its own later. Or maybe I'll notice that to me it's really more of a 'smell'- the point here is that I can't even discuss it until it's had a chance to gestate. [And unfortunately with OA, the presumptions of what lack of response 'meant' polluted my ability to let it gestate effectively- ruminating on why the presumptions were annoying (and also why they seemed to only keep getting more and more venomous) took precedence over/replaced the initial query, I think. It's 'furniture that had to get moved out of the way first'.]
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  2. #602
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    11,088

    Default

    Skylights - yes, I find this part of the conversation absolutely helpful, because as the differences between what we see or value become clear, then it gives me something of practical value to take away to guide my future interactions. It is incredibly useful to me to have someone translate how my behaviour appears to them in terms I understand. I don't naturally know how a behaviour that seems absolutely logical to me could be misinterpreted, and so it's hard to avoid it, or to know how to offer context and additional information for the other person if I don't know where those differences lie and what they are.

    I do believe it is correct though that I get hung up when those impressions are presented as conclusions, simply because in my eyes they are not accurate interpretations, if only the other person had access to all the information they need! Therefore, you saw a lot of us trying to offer more information (thinking we were helping to resolve the problem that OA was seeking to solve, because that is what we'd wish for) and it only was coming across as ignoring the issue, justifying bad behaviour or avoiding responsibility. I can't seem to leave the inaccuracies alone, because I think we are talking about different things and therefore that is why I was trying to offer a list of faults that I knew I could cop to and identified with more than those listed. I wanted to be open-minded and cooperative, but the way each point was stated just didn't reflect something that rang bells with me. Without more specifics about what you folks were seeing, I didn't know what to offer back.

    I'm wondering though - do our responses seem like we are still trying to whitewash bad behaviour, or does it appear that we are sincerely trying to work with you? I know this sounds stupid to ask, but I honestly don't know how it is perceived by Ne/Fi/Te functioning people.

    By the way, Glycerine and Z Buck, excellent posts!

  3. #603
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    7,368

    Default


    /re3evant
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  4. #604
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4 sp/so
    Posts
    6,172

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    This might sound more like venting, but I can't think of a better way to ask, so I apologize about that.

    Answering skylights post on the "list" makes it seem INFJ's are rewarding skylights for "good" behaviour, and are not answering OA's for "bad" behaviour.

    Or, it looks like you're answering because you like skylights, but not OA. The main points of the list are the same. So what makes them more answerable now?

    Is this is a way to try to motivate OA to conform to the way you would prefer she act, or prefer she talk? Is that what I'm seeing? Or can INFJ's explain it to me the way it's intended?
    Would it help to reframe it as setting boundaries instead of reward and punishment? For example: INTJmom's thread about how one of her sons was addressing her over Christmas.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  5. #605
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I realize that you want to mediate and make peace between people, PB, but in this case, I think what you are doing is actually widening the differences.
    Well, I feel like I need to exaggerate the difference atm to be able to see more clearly where the differences are. It's not about trying to be divisive, it's more about trying to get a handle on where the boundaries are. I can't mediate anything when I can't feel all of the nuances of the object. It is challenging to just feel my way around the edges ... so thanks very much for your reply, it is helping me understand better.

    It feels - I'm not saying you are, but it feels like you are - denying something that is actually a thing and not just a personal preference in approach. I appreciate the fact that you want to help, but I don't know if that is the way that is going to do it for me, at least.
    No, as I've mentioned before, I do see it as something. I can appreciate that. I just need parameters around that something, what approach works best, how to approach. Sort of a do / don't list. Some guidelines stated out loud would be useful.

    What I am basically hearing is that INFJs need an approach in a friendly, open way in order to enter into a dialogue that feels respectful and mutually beneficial.

    If you or anyone else can simply confirm, that would be appreciated.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #606
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    11,088

    Default

    Yes for sure that is true. I think the reason it wasn't stated before is because that is so much a part of our viewpoint that it just seems like a universal recipe for getting along well (I realize that's not the case). For me, it works better when people start with what we have in common and then point out where we diverge and how it looks to them from their perspective. If it presented in the form of a statement, it sounds very final (kind of like you might hear Fe judgements seeming final), even if it is up for discussion.

    Mm, yeah, the something rotten in Denmark comment was referring to recognizing that OA's comments weren't purely in the spirit of figuring out what is going on. I realize that everyone's perspective is going to be tinged with subjective elements, but by not acknowledging that there was some less than pure motives (even if there was good intent too), that frees me up from trying to prove to you that there were and that I'm still confused about what I'm being asked for. I feel that skylights did that effectively by starting from a friendly place, seeing that elements of the list had merit, but that some reframing was needed if we were going to be able to get anywhere with it. I don't think that she was discounting OA's list entirely, but her approach was such that it was much more clear to me what she was seeing and where her thinking diverged from mine.

    Don't know if that's of any help, but maybe it clarifies something for you.

  7. #607
    Glycerine
    Guest

    Default

    At first, with the tone of posts, it was very "emotive personal " but with the help of the INTJ and the ENFPs, it started to become more "detached impersonal (observation for exploration/curiosity's sake)". For me, when I talk about things theoretically, there is rarely an emotional personal attachment but then when there is emotion involved, it starts to feel personal.

  8. #608
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    Thank you, everyone, for the answers and additions. I am going to work on reflecting and responding. I love this huge flood of ideas! I am in N-irvana

    In the meanwhile -

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I'm wondering though - do our responses seem like we are still trying to whitewash bad behaviour, or does it appear that we are sincerely trying to work with you? I know this sounds stupid to ask, but I honestly don't know how it is perceived by Ne/Fi/Te functioning people.
    At least to me, not at all. It feels like a floodgate of communication has opened and I am reveling in the waters.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i still don't entirely grasp how you've managed this or why its happening, and i really really want too, but this this turn of events seems fantastic to me, in both meanings of the word.
    Thank you for the appreciation, Mane. It was the INFJs that explained how to communicate, though, in bits and pieces through the thread. And the INFPs provided what to communicate. All I did was gather that information and mesh it all together - and since much of it was emotive/relational, the NeFiTe process could essentially operate at maximum efficacy. The INFJs provided two critical information pieces: first, that the communication, if seeking resolution, cannot be couched in negativity (now I understand that this is because it sends a mixed message in regards to intent); second, that there is an extremely important difference between objective pronouncement (INFJs do this) and subjective impression (it seems to me that INFJs do this), and subjective impression must be indicated, as it is not an understood. I then just generated Ne possibilities based off of OA's headings to fit within the bounds of those two "rules". There doesn't need to be an INFP or INFJ sandbox; with a little finagling, everyone can play in the same one!

    Now we have lots of generous information-sharing INFJs absolutely shattering into diamond dust the conception that they refuse to consider another's perception - which is wonderful! And we can begin to explore all the interesting ins and outs of INFP impressions of INFJ behaviors, and the real INFJ "secrets" behind them.

  9. #609
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    I guess then, on the flip-side, the easiest way to get past an INFJ's boundaries is to work the friendly, sincere side extremely well. An approach that doesn't set off alarm bells has the greatest advantage to infiltrate and disarm.

    Is this why INFJ's have boundary issues? The alarm bells only ring occasionally? Not enough to really seem a concern? But enough to muddy things a bit?

    Ironically, INFP's might set off the emotive alarm bells a lot, but it's most likely we are least likely to have any harmful agenda or negative intent.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #610
    It's always something... PuddleRiver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    5w6
    Posts
    2,924

    Default

    My problem has always been never trusting it because I am waiting for evidence to unfold in order to confirm it (trying to keep an open mind) and wanting really bad to believe in the best in people but it has continually screwed me over so I am trusting my gut this time.[/QUOTE]

    Well done, this is exactly what I do. My gut's usually right.
    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay one invincible summer."
    ~~~~
    A Christian's life may be the only Bible some people ever read.
    ~~~~
    "The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them" Maya Angelou.
    ~~~~
    I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ" Gandhi
    ~~~~

Similar Threads

  1. [ENFP] ENFPs, what do ENFPs do that drives you nuts?
    By Esoteric Wench in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 01-05-2013, 10:25 AM
  2. Am I a INTP or a INFP?What do you think?
    By Tish211 in forum What's my Type?
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 01-04-2011, 09:33 PM
  3. [MBTItm] INFPs: What do you admire about ISFJs?
    By Afkan in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 08-13-2010, 07:40 PM
  4. [INFP] INFPs: What do you look for in friends?
    By DigitalMethod in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 46
    Last Post: 10-08-2008, 11:48 AM
  5. Josh Groban: INFJ? INFP?? What do you think?
    By BookLady in forum Popular Culture and Type
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 07-03-2008, 09:11 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO