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  1. #591
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Ok, Eilonwy, credits are rolling, I've watched it.
    I was hoping for more perspectives on it, but I'll ask my questions anyway.

    Taking the film in it's broadest sense, I see it as positing a way to solve a problem in communication between two people. Would that be your take on it also, or do you see it differently?

    What do you think about the solution? Would it really work? Would it work across a broad spectrum of people or only in certain cases? Is it a solution that would work for you in a similar situation? If it wouldn't work for you, why not?
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  2. #592
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I'm happy to wait for other perspectives before I share mine. No hurry no worry.

  3. #593
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    This might sound more like venting, but I can't think of a better way to ask, so I apologize about that.

    Answering skylights post on the "list" makes it seem INFJ's are rewarding skylights for "good" behaviour, and are not answering OA's for "bad" behaviour.

    Or, it looks like you're answering because you like skylights, but not OA. The main points of the list are the same. So what makes them more answerable now?

    Is this is a way to try to motivate OA to conform to the way you would prefer she act, or prefer she talk? Is that what I'm seeing? Or can INFJ's explain it to me the way it's intended?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #594
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    This is interesting to me. Mane also VMed, asking why the different response, as well. To me it seems obvious, but perhaps this is one of the areas where both groups are seeing very different things because of what they place the most priority on. The reason the response is different is due to two entirely different approaches. I feel like we've been trying to tell you that all along, but perhaps somehow the message is not clear in the way we tend to word things. Depending on the approach, it will totally change our ability to know what you are looking for and try to deliver it.

    In skylight's case, she is coming from a friendly position that recognizes differences, and is trying to account for them to the best of her ability. She is open to correction, but is telling us how it looks like from her side of the fence and inviting more insight. In OA's, she included several nasty digs basically implying that if we didn't agree 100%, we were just showing more of the traits on the list, instead of considering that our behaviour came out of the fact that us and her are seeing totally different things in our internal landscapes and so our behaviour may be explainable in light of what we see around us and not explainable in light of what you see. She has established some credibility over time, but it's not that I "like" her better and I'm trying to reward her and teach OA a lesson. It's just more clear to me what her motivation is.

    In OA's case, nothing she is saying indicates she actually wants different perspective on the conclusions she has made. Any motivation that I could assign doesn't exactly fit. For example: if she is warning others about getting involved with INFJs, she isn't doing it directly. If she is telling us how we have hurt others so we can avoid it, it doesn't come off as friendly advice. If she is trying to understand the behaviour better, she is approaching it in a manner that gives the opposite message. If she is venting, why bother quoting outside sources? I don't know what she wants from us, so I don't trust the message she says she is giving. It feels like we're damned if we do and damned if we don't and I want no part of that.

    On a personal level, I have no beef with OA. She's been most helpful in some discussions about skincare. It's just when she gets to this topic that I find her method of communication unhelpful and abrasive. I realize that you want to mediate and make peace between people, PB, but in this case, I think what you are doing is actually widening the differences. Something truly does smell rotten in Denmark (just as surely as Fi can tell when a person feels differently than the vibe they are emitting). It feels - I'm not saying you are, but it feels like you are - denying something that is actually a thing and not just a personal preference in approach. I appreciate the fact that you want to help, but I don't know if that is the way that is going to do it for me, at least.

  5. #595
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I've been thinking over the sensitivity to criticism thing. I very much identify with Glycerine's comments on that point. Again, some of this comes down to delayed processing. Any new information that is incoming has to be processed for awhile, before you are going to see the result of it. It is very inconvenient to me that this is the case, but I know of no way to make that happen faster.

    I will say that it has to come from a friendly place if it's not going to take me a long time to be able to accept criticism freely. I am very self-conscious and hard on myself by nature. Therefore, if it appears that someone is making fun of me while pointing out a shortcoming, it feels like being kicked when I'm down and it is hard to view the person as being objective. If they are coming out of a place of frustration, it is very embarrassing for me, but usually I can accept the possibility of it being true much easier. If they are pointing it out in anger, that sometimes takes longer to sort out as it could be motivated by their own issues, or it might be a legitimate thing that takes some time for me to see in myself and correct. For me, correction definitely needs to be private, as again internal embarrassment and shame totally take over when it is done publicly in a laughing sort of way (hence what Affirmative Anxiety was talking about learning to deal with it in that way better).

    When I do receive criticism, you may not hear or see right away how I react to it, but you can be sure that it is not being ignored or is left unconsidered.

    INFJs are very sensitive to how other people view them. Often people come away with wildly different views of me because initially I think I appear a lot more malleable than I am as they get to know me better. Part of this is a tendancy to let people in a bit at a time. Part is that I like to gathering all the information before I draw a lot of conclusions about people. Also, because I find criticism painful myself (it's like a deep shame if I realize people are right that I did not notice it first and embarrassment at all the stupid things I have done as a result), I am unlikely to offer criticism unless not doing so is going to threaten the relationship more, you are in my deepest inner circle (and not even then very often) or I am extremely frustrated. I might be more likely to point out that a particular action might lead to a bad end, but not disturb much that is centred around who the person really is.

    I believe this is in part because I find it easier to accept help on things surrounding my outer world, but have difficulty inviting direction to my inner world. I'm not sure, but wonder if maybe Fi/Ne/Te people find the opposite (this is just a hypothesis). Direction to the inner world isn't such a big deal, but interference in the outer world feels constricting and intrusive? Don't know. The reason I wonder this is that I hear some of the things that Fi users have suggested they might say to a friend, and to me they sound absolutely brutal and vice-versa. Some of what I would consider no big deal would be rather cutting to them. Because of this disconnect, I wonder if perhaps we find the opposite things intrusive, hurtful, or affecting us at the root of our identity.

    Edit: Several occasions stand out to me where I felt absolutely embarrassed and I'm sure the other party had no idea why. Here are a couple of examples:

    - One summer after my first year university I got a bursary to study French for a summer in Quebec. I soon became good friends with a group of people. One night, they wanted to play cards. I hadn't grown up in a card-playing family, and by nature would prefer to watch first before taking part. However, I was needed to make the numbers work out so cautioned that I would need instructions etc etc. During the course of it, the guy that I was sort of dating, noticed that when they were dealing, I was picking up each card as it was dealt. Instead of telling me ahead of time about the etiquette of the game, or pointing it out quietly in a friendly way after I did it the first time, he made some joke about it to the group later on in the game. I was close to tears of embarrassment because I already felt apprehensive about playing and like I might let other people down and needed to know it was a friendly environment. It shouldn't have been a big deal, and I knew it shouldn't have been a big deal (which made me feel even more embarrassed), but it left a mark, even though I tried my best to hide the emotion I was feeling.

    - When I lived up north, my ESTJ boyfriend made several comments over the course of a few days (usually in front of other people) about my car care/driving. In one case, I had driven out of my driveway which was very narrow and had a steep, but camouflaged by soft snow drop off on both sides. I got terribly stuck and had to have a tow truck pull me out. He was laughing about it in front of someone at school who tended to be very outspoken and critical, whom I didn't know well. It wasn't mean-spirited, but I was already embarrassed that I had gotten myself into the predicament and had had to involve other people to help me (to no avail). Then he made some comment about how my car always looked snowy all over the place (his was always impeccably brushed off, while I mostly made sure that the windows and headlights were clear - to me it was saying that I am a careless and lazy person, even though I know he didn't explicitly intend it that way). In both cases, I had a little talk with myself, explained that he didn't intend either comment maliciously and probably didn't even know that it was hurtful or embarrassing to me. Finally, when he made a third comment, the dam burst and I started to cry and blurted out, "If something bothers you, bring up one thing at a time!!!! I can't deal with three or four things at once! Besides, you don't even have to drive with me, so I don't know why it bothers you so much!". I was further embarrassed by losing control like that, as I don't typically show raw emotion in front of others and felt stupid that I couldn't just deal with it. He had no idea what I was even talking about at first, but when he did, he was devastated. He looked like I had slapped him across the face and called him a monster, so then I felt not only embarrassed, but also like a terrible person for doing that to him. I ended up apologizing, despite the fact that the implications made by his comments still weren't really resolved in my head (I don't verbalize things unless I want to send some kind of a message indirectly to allow the other person to save face, so I had taken it as that.). I understand now that it is better to say something right away, rather than save it up, but it is still difficult to know what is big enough to talk about, and what is just petty or because I'm tired or how to do it without it seeming like a big deal.

    - My first year of university, I remember coming home to my four roommates sitting in the living room. They all had known each other before, were part of the same cultural group and were older than me, so I already felt a bit on the edge of things. As I came in, they laughed and said, "We always know when you are here because we hear your shoes clattering down the stairs". I took the comment as having a whole lot of subtext, which it didn't. It was only after living there for a year that I finally realized that their culture was such that they said things very directly and there was nothing in back of it. If I made the same comment, it would either mean that I was frustrated with them for making noise and that it had been a problem for awhile. Because it was a comment made in front of others, I also assumed that they all felt the same way and after a few incidents like that, I just avoided being at home more and more.

    In all of these cases, it was not that I was not open to criticism. It just meant that

    1) SUBTEXT vs FACE VALUE - I think my functions result in me communicating with subtext and so I often misread those who don't communicate that way as feeling much more strongly than they actually do. I also tended to not communicate anything negative unless it was really a problem. Therefore, I assumed that people again felt more strongly than they really did.

    2) SPECIFIC INCIDENT vs GENERALIZED TREND - I usually took an instance of criticism as having a deeper underlying categorization about me, rather than referring to one specific incident. I think perhaps this has to do with Ni looking for patterns and classifications. I wonder if this is one of the big Ne/Ni disconnects?

    3) INTERNAL PROCESSING with time delay vs EXTERNAL PROCESSING in the moment - Delayed processing makes it difficult to check things in the moment and doing it later seems to make it into a Big Deal and then it's hard to know what is worth dealing with and what isn't, but over time those little things all add up. I'm working on what to do about this still. I admire those that can just make a joke of it or ask a question right at the time, rather than letting the significance of an off-handed comment grow into something bigger that perhaps is quite inaccurate.

  6. #596
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    @fidelia, @Tiltyred, @Glycerine, you guys are wonderful!! Thank you for contributing more information to those points!!

    I hope this is at least a little bit useful to you all, too, because that kind of information sharing - exploration, I guess - is absolutely invaluable to me. With it, I can begin to construct a "web" of reasoning, so that when I observe an INFJ doing something that seems unpleasant to me, I can apply that understanding and present myself with a number of answers as to why they are doing so, and the answer is no longer relegated to "they are mean/bad/etc", which is unfortunately the only thing I am left with when Fi is hurt and I have no Ne branches to lean on. Fi is a responsive mechanism, so the only way one can proceed with it is to define what we are responding to, and I think sadly we end up taking that last resort of mean/bad/harmful because we simply can't react without assigning some intent to the action - otherwise the lack of ability to react effectively stalemates us and leaves us floundering in the realm of woogly emotions, wondering how to feel, being swamped by misunderstanding and confusion and bewilderment. Even being angry is preferable to that, because at least it allows us to reclaim our sense of self.
    @Glycerine, your explanation of "perspective bending" with Ni is fascinating. Would you mind giving an example of how you can distort perception to a goal? Is it like suddenly when your goals change, different "areas" light up on your information radar?
    @Tiltyred, what you explained about being asked to deconstruct Ni sounds really frustrating when I think about the way I feel when people ask me to deconstruct Fi. It's looped, complex, foggy, fuzzy, intricate, non-symmetrical, ever-changing, subconscious, deeply intrinsic. How difficult it is to pull a line of reasoning out of that, much less one that other people will readily understand and appreciate. Fi takes time to process, too. I think that one method for NFPs to better understand NFJs would be to consider your Perceiving process the way we handle our Feeling process. It is something we have to treat gently, patiently, and trust regardless of what the outside world is telling us.

    Also, your description of Boobfest is (1) helpful, (2) funny, and (3) slightly disconcerting because I have always had a very "romantic" impression of Renfests and I have been wanting to attend one. I definitely sympathize with not wanting to go displaying your boobies around your boss. Ugh!
    @fidelia, your explanation of feeling pressed to decide up front is awesome. I think that's really interesting to hear from a J because generally it's Ps who feel like the ones who are undecided until the last minute, but I have to remember that you guys are Perceiving dominant too and of course you do the same game of waiting for more information that we do, hating to act on less information when more is available. Your comparison to timeflow is awesome, too. Yes, that is exactly how it feels. It just seems like you're going to be able to do all that in that little space, but then life gets in the way. My mom taught me the rule of taking however long you think you'll need and doubling it: godsend to a P. Over time I've also learned to just trust Ni cakes along the way, bizarre and out of nowhere though they arise!



    Quote Originally Posted by sorenx7 View Post
    I wish people would realize this isn't so much about liking or disliking, though, but more about compatibility and incompatibility. I don't actually dislike any of the INFJs I know.
    I understand this. In college, I joined a sorority, and one of the girls in my pledge class (group of girls entering at the same time) was incredibly personally frustrating to me. I wanted to like all of the girls, all of my future sisters. I tried to like her. I never did. I learned a lifelong lesson that semester, that sometimes it's just better for people to appreciate each other from afar. I wish her the best in her life and I respect her gifts, and I hope someday I will be mature enough to learn how to get along with people like her. Until then, I think it's better for us to live out our lives in separate realms.

    That said, there are many things beyond MBTI, and even personality, that factor into compatibility. Even at 1% of the population, there are 69,737,384 INFJs out there, and out of those I suspect there is probably at least one that you would be compatible with.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Or, it looks like you're answering because you like skylights, but not OA. The main points of the list are the same. So what makes them more answerable now?
    I suspect, PB, it has something to do with dismissing the premises of INFJs do this as necessarily accurate, and replacing that with "this is something INFJs are perceived by another type to be doing", in addition to less negative emotional noise surrounding the information. I doubt that it has anything to do with me personally. I think this is another one of those places where it seems to us like NFJs are refusing to interact, so we assign an intention to that perceived behavior, but the reality of it is that it is simply a function of framing the information in a more understandable and approachable format for the NiFe process.

    I wanted to comment on this even though you directed your question at INFJs because I am beginning to see a pattern where NFPs want to assign purpose to something and throw a possible interpretation out there, and NFJs retreat more and more as "inaccurate" (tentative) information is presented, which in NFP eyes makes that subject seem even more obscure and NFJs possibly harboring malintent, because why else would anyone decline to share information? So then the NFP feels upset, and naturally communicates that in an effort to establish a line of open, honest communication, but the NFJ feels that negativity and turns away even more. Yay NFP-NFJ death spiral!

    So NFPs need to learn how to approach NFJs with outward gentleness and demonstrated goodwill, even if we are uncomfortable, and NFJs need to learn how to recognize NFP information probing for the effort to understand and reconcile that it is, not an attempt to pigeonhole or accuse.

    I think.

    I'm curious to hear more about the movie, @Eilowny. I'll see if I can Netflix it later too.

  7. #597
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    More on embarrassment:

    I remember as a kid working on speech arts selections for the music festival, as well as Broadway singing numbers for it. It was almost like I was split off from myself watching what I was doing and commenting critically on it. It was a real struggle, even to make myself perform it as I planned to in front of myself. I certainly didn't want to do it in front of others until I could perfect it to the best of my ability so that they would see what I could do accurately and we could go from there. Even as a baby, I didn't talk until I could do it correctly! Anyway, as a result, I would put off doing it (I was even embarrassed reading to myself with expression in front of the mirror in a bedroom with the door shut at first!!!!!!). Then I wouldn't get to the point where I felt comfortable having others see it. There were a few occasions when I only decided on actions to do for Broadway night half an hour before it had to be done! It wasn't that I thought that I didn't need help. It wasn't that I wasn't open to criticism. It was just that the embarrassment and shame that came from me not seeing what I needed to do (even in front of myself) was so great that it was extremely hard to invite other people onto the committee to add to that voice! Perhaps that is why I need to feel that criticism is coming from a constructive and friendly place. I already freak myself out enough! I think it has to be personality related, as I came from a very supportive family and had no reason to fear being made fun of.

    Of course this is me at 12 or 13, but I think maybe it highlights just how hard it is to put yourself out there like that. As time went on, the noise of my internal voice quieted itself and I found it easier to invite outside critique, but I think I still probably am more sensitive to criticism because of the deeper implications about myself that I draw from it, than many people are.

  8. #598
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    4. General delusion*.

    Ni is focused differently than Ne; it discards what it doesn't see as important. Ne drags along everything for the ride regardless of whether it is true or real or not. Which one is more delusional?
    I sent this clip from the movie Land of the Lost to @Z Buck McFate a while back. At the time I couldn't for the life of me figure out why I related to it so well. But this talk of dressing rooms...and Ne bringing everything to the party cinched it for me. This clip illustrates so well how Ne gets in the way of good judgment. Okay, okay...I do not imagine to this extent for INFPs or ENFPs with a more fortunate enneagram placement...but yah...I just needed to share that I now understand what it is about this clip that I identify with haha.


  9. #599
    Glycerine
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    @skylights: Here is a generic example.
    My primary objective can be to be supportive and understanding of loved ones. I really want them to be happy and to be there for them. so I am able to bend my perspective to mirror their perspective. However, as I gather more information, if bells go off, I step back and look at the information through the objective of making sense of it for the long-term at the cost of the short-term. It's like "wait a minute...something is really off about the situation." and I try to reconcile that.

    Because of the ability of perspective bending, Ni users tend to see cause and effect relationships in a course of action quite readily. It's like focusing on all the the potential nuances and possibilities of a few aspects of an object while Ne is expansive and looks at the relationships between many different objects. For example, I honestly can't stand outlines and brainstorming for writing something because I find them restrictive and white noise... it's like, "how the hell am I supposed know the structure and content of the paper until I write it." If I just have plenty of quiet time and concentration, I will typically be able to come up with a fairly structured and cohesive paper off the top of my head.

    On the flipside, the perspective bending aspect can negatively be used to manipulate others to the end goal because if one is skilled enough, Ni can easily frame information to meet an objective. Think of Gustavo Fring in Breaking Bad.

    On a light-hearted note, the perspective bending is the reason why we tend to find irony quite amusing (when I point it out to people, people think I am criticizing or being uber serious). haha

    I hope that made some sense and not me just rambling.
    Last edited by Glycerine; 01-14-2013 at 11:00 AM.

  10. #600
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I hope this is at least a little bit useful to you all, too, because that kind of information sharing - exploration, I guess - is absolutely invaluable to me.
    same here, potentially critical.

    this is brilliant, beautiful, i still don't entirely grasp how you've managed this or why its happening, and i really really want too, but this this turn of events seems fantastic to me, in both meanings of the word.


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