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  1. #51
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    This is more uniquely 5 & so last though. INFJ e1s, e3s, etc, are less likely to have that problem, IMO.
    this is one of those times where the "facts" are difficult for us to agree upon. in my own way of disambiguating type correlations, 3w4 is an enfj type and not an infj type. i see 3, 7, and 8 as the most extroverted in orientation. the most driven to do things in the world. while i see so/sx 4s and 9s that look more extroverted and rely less on sp slowness and self-sufficiency, there's still a big difference to me. i also think 90% of the e1 infjs are incorrect. i think 1w9 can be an infj or an intj type, but 1w2 is always an ej.

    without common ground, and without clearly bounding the perceptions we share, it's difficult to talk about features of a type.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    In the case of my post, the scale being used is hurt in other people. It's less about social expectations, from my perspective, although I AM able to recognize when some of these have the purpose of not hurting others needlessly. Yes, there is a common language being used, where certain things are recognized as petty, and so to hurt people over them is hard for me to understand. What I usually see the INFJ do is simply deny they hurt someone; which is bizarre to me when the evidence is all there. This is less about J, which I don't see myself as fighting, as it is a Pe viewpoint. For a Pe type, to deny something is in front of your face is, well, just denial. That doesn't mean we always give in the proper weight, but we'll acknowledge its existence.
    i can only sympathize here. i think that often times Pe types think things are self-evident that do not appear as self-evident to me and must rely on a ton of assumptions that are sometimes not recognized too. at the same time, i am trying to admit that i recognize that my Pe obliviousness is clearly my own biggest limitation. the thing is, i don't think there's anything that can really be done about it. i can either get wildly, uncontrollably depressed that i am fucking oblivious, or i can accept it and work from my strengths and try to get more comfortable with the extremely difficult to accept moment, meaning, sensation, etc of what it's like to be wrong and to truly face that when the world is so complicated and the scales of wrong are extremely complex. and i can also appreciate that my experience of the unseen, the kind of reflexivity that operates within my own kind of inner vision, is valuable and offers tools to change the world for the better as well. and is part of the larger system of checks and balances that we collectively are.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I also see words like "powerful" and "play", and I get this sense of depersonalizing these interactions, turning things into threats, as if people are just objects in the way, and there again, this leads to a stubbornness against seeing another perspective as valid. It's easier to do that when you depersonalize I guess. It's the hypocrisy that kills me with INFJs when they do this, because the same treatment extended towards them gets them all hurt & upset, and that of course, must be acknowledged! Things suddenly become very personal when directed at them...
    this seems like an e4 generalization issue. to be the ecologist, to aim for equanimity, without being as self-aware as we would like to in order to perform a function that is simply beyond us but still must be done, as imperfectly as we are able to. and e4s are made to experience the loss of all changes, the negative difference, that makes them critically oriented both in terms of reason-giving and in terms of aesthetic prejudice. balancing that is the mastery of the e4-->e1 integration. and we're probably, and this may not be how you see it, working with e4 and e1-->e4 (the people we both feel we are battling against at times, both outside of us and internally as well).

    so i guess i feel like this is a negotiation about the negotiation that often happens with nfps. and it's not an inherent flaw to work with this different methodology, because this too needs to be negotiated.

    at the same time, i am trying really hard to establish that the perspective of Fi is highly valued and grounding for me. it is able to help me see exactly what you say, the specific effects on others in an informing style that allows you to simply experience their own illustration of their own experience. Ti does want to pick leverage points, identify the principle factors, however, and it can be difficult for us to read you when you do prefer an informing style that is more embodied rather than a pointed answer to a pointed question. i'm consistently surprised that one of my best friends, an infp 4w5 so/sx, often sees ways of modifying behavior that would be enormously helpful to me but says nothing, or says something in a way that i do not see. i just want to be like, you're a good friend! you have not only rights but responsibilities to say something obviously helpful! be more directive, dammit! (probably one area i have an easier time with 9w1 infps than 4w5s). explain the reason! identify how to control the change, not just stay with all the consequences of these continual fuckups! sure i'll learn the lesson, but you already know it, so just share it! teach! sometimes it's worth it to bring to light a negative effect on a variety of people and on myself that will lead to me being hurt, my identity being bruised, etc, when it's for the greater good. i don't think the informing style is everything. it doesn't supply the ethics in and of itself. it is a way you have mastered being ethical, but not the only way. it too has its flaws, for it is best at seeing only at certain scales of activity. it protects the experiences of individuals in spaces over the spaces themselves. constraints are not evil just because you have not been able to experience their full process of emergence. this is the cultural knowledge that we share, that organizes us without our knowing, that binds us so that we can focus awareness in other ways. but infjs and Ni types focus on updating the cultural knowledge that seems circular and tautological and is harder to diagnose causally because we exist through it as much as it exists through us. focusing our attention on that makes us reflexive in some ways that are highly costly to us and others in other ways. but it doesn't just make us wrong. it makes us flawed and incomplete and dependent on others just like everyone else.

    but regardless of this, we do go through phases when it feels like it's controlling me in ways that are not fair to the rules and understanding of my own worldview. when we feel judged, dismissed, as if our perspective as we experience it is less important than the way the other person renders the context and defines the situation.


    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    But I think it's perfectly fair to criticize INFPs over our inferior Te. These blindspots are often where flaws are sourced.
    i think it's unfair because i just don't think you can do anything about it. Te (especially as an Si user) isn't something where you can get the categories first and then iterate to know the boundaries of the guesses that help you parse out the grammar of the statistical prediction system. you need repetitions. and you need attention to find ways of recognizing this new way of thinking, of incorporating this process that has been going on in the dark and shining a big fucking spotlight on it so that it can connect to your overall long-term decision-making system. they can only be taught in terms of allowing your dominant systems to recognize what is missing and look for them a little more closely, to start to build by staying with different kinds of awareness and cognitive processes that are unusual and hard to locate. i always forget where Ti is, and the huge storms of Ni iteration just kind of wash over everything and require clean-up, restoration, and rebuilding to find balance again. we're all like this, and this developmental process takes fucking forever (in lived time) and rarely reaches a full completion. to criticize your inferior is to criticize you for not being a perfectly enlightened person. especially when you don't seem to establish or recognize first and foremost that you appreciate the strengths of the other person and work your best to understand the value of that.



    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Of course it does, and it happens between any two people of any type. I've found communication less of an issue with INFJs in terms of understanding the other than not giving credit for a view. Perhaps the invalidation is actually misunderstanding on the INFJ's part, but it appears they grasped it intellectually, but just dismissed it because it was uncomfortable. I just see a lot of, "I don't like this, so I refuse to look at it, and then that means it doesn't exist." It's akin to putting your hands over your ears and going, "la la la la! I can't hear you!".

    There have been sooo many times I've had to resist saying, " I told you so" to INFJs in my life. And instead of giving me credit & lending more weight to my viewpoint in the future, they just sort of shrug it off.
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Thank you. This says a lot more than everything else you've said so far. What prevents you from seeing the problem another way, so as to see another solution? This is an issue I've seen with INFJs; they're trying to solve something which almost doesn't exist because they've identified the problem incorrectly. Then they get frustrated when they don't get results. I'm wondering, why doesn't this person see the problem lies elsewhere? Most of the time, it looks like they don't want to see it, because it means a change they don't want to make. I see someone who keeps framing something a certain way so as not to have to "move", as you put it.
    i am glad that i am able to say something that means more to you and that you recognize is an attempt to find common ground. but i wrote all the other stuff to do that as well, so if you don't think it's important, it's hard for me to feel that you are trying to understand what i am saying too. because i'm trying to show you both the bad and good side at the same time and then show that they're somewhat inseparable. that they can't just be corrected any more than we can just be perfect, but then can be improved through effort, strategy, and patience.

    because what prevents us from being what you want is partly a limitation of type and partly a swing to the bad side of what we can be. falling down the levels of health. when you feel depressed, do you not lash out at others more? do you not forget how to give? or appreciation what you have been given? i feel like when we lose balance, we lose some degree of control over our behavior. and then the blindspots are more obvious and less integrated. we lose our well-being.


    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I understand this frustration, and being an INFP e4 so last, I am far from the picture of social grace. However, the issue occurs when someone informs you that certain behavior is hurtful to them, not asking you to "just know" because it's common sense. Again it's no game, no power play; just people asking you to see how you've affected them. I do believe obliviousness is often the culprit, but I guess it looks selfish to me when someone has tried to make you aware, but you refuse to be aware because it would mean change.
    to me, this is the most helpful thing you have said to express what you need from us. i agree that this kind of awareness needs to be defended, practiced, and cultivated by everyone. and i know that inferior Pe can lead to a kind of ignorance related to the concrete effects of these things, especially as we identify with emotion, as we embody value through an external perspective rather than an internal one. our feelings are outside of us. they're not focused by an inner kind of awareness. this too is what i appreciate so much about the concentrated emotional intelligence of Fi.

    i think the imbalance also comes from the instincts. so types favoring the group too much at the expense of the marginal experiences. sx types favoring their own self-aggrandizement and self-directed leadership over the wishes of others. and sp types denying that others have needs at all in order to stabilize their own situation.

  2. #52

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    There is a greater chance that the Middle East conflict will be solved than there is that INFPs and INFJs will come to an agreement. Nothing will ever change until the INFJs lose their condescending, dismissive attitude toward INFPs. It's doubtful that will ever happen. IF more INFJs acted the way SilkRoad acts, of course, it would be different. But you've got to look at the way things usually are, not to the exception to the rule. If the human race had only consisted of INFPs and INFJs, mankind would have destroyed itself long ago. Cooperation which is necessary for progress would have been impossible. In my own life, I now know (from finding out the hard way) that trying to get anything done that's meaningful with an INFJ is a waste of time. The best I can do is hold no bitterness or ill will and try to be at peace. So, in case it isn't clear, I do believe it's impossible for INFPs and INFJs to understand each other no matter how hard they try. Once again, there will be some exceptions, but I'm just talking about as a general rule.

  3. #53
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    You asked. We'll tell. Fi-style though, because well, that's what we hear you asking for. It doesn't mean we don't admire a MYRIAD of other things about you all. Which we express with 10x more frequency than is reciprocated. In ordinary circumstance, we feel like we're the ones reaching out to you, trying to match your communication style, not the other way around generally. Ask for truth though, and you'll get it from our functional perspective. Fi-style.
    It really seems to me like- while INFPs and INFJs often arrive at the same conclusions- the processes we use are so different that each to the other is always “saying the quiet part loud and the keeping the loud part quiet” (Simpson’s reference)…..eliciting a response from the other side. To both sides, I suspect it’s like saying “1+1=3, or does it equal 2?”…..like we both feel like what we’re saying is clear, and the response we’re expecting is clear, but then we get something like “blue” and it seems like the other side isn’t listening.

    It was surprising to hear in that last thread that we were ‘telling you that your opinions were wrong’- because if I were to give that kind of feedback myself, the whole point in doing it would be to hear from the other side what’s off about it. Like, that would be the whole point of giving feedback aloud to me, to hear what I may be mistaken about- so I don’t begin to understand what Fi is looking for.

    I think that Fi needs acknowledgment that I don’t (and, it seems, that Fe doesn’t) know how to give. This comment above about something that is expressed with “10x more frequency than is reciprocated”…..seems like something Fe just doesn’t need in the first place. So sometimes it’s almost like hearing complaints about how putting coins into a snack machine never yields a cold beverage…..of course it doesn’t, whether you put 10x the amount of coins in or 100x the amount of coins- because it’s a snack machine. And any ‘snacks’ dispensed just get tossed aside as worthless because it isn’t what you’re looking for- that ‘we put in 10x without reciprocation’ goes both ways.

    I can relate to needing a certain kind of acknowledgement- if someone tells me my idea is “stupid” without really being able to explain why (and in so doing, prove they understand where I'm coming from in the first place), then I’ll be disinclined to communicate with them when it isn’t absolutely necessary. But this specific brand of acknowledgment Fi seems to need I just don’t relate to much, if at all.

    This whole Fe/Fi thing that happens in the forum is weird.
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  4. #54
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    The online rep is crap, I do agree with that. And I think I've always been quite ready to say so.

    I think it's partly to do with the "INFJs are the most unique type" (as in smallest number, apparently)
    Yes, I think so as well. I don't fault INFJs with this rep; I actually think it's perpetuated more by other types who admire them.

    I do think you're going to put people's backs up on this site though if you say that TypeC worships INFJs as demigods, as it's not the case.
    I was being cheeky with that phrasing.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Has there ever been a thread where INFJs or Fe target INFPs or Fi for complaints? Or is it typically the reverse?
    This thread was started by an INFJ asking for opinions from INFPs. There have many threads where INFPs have asked similar questions or threads which discussed INFP flaws.

    I don't think this is a Fi/Fe issue either. I get the impression you are mainly responding to my post, and you'll notice that almost all of my points refer to Ni. Much of the time, I find clashes with INFJs to be a Ne/Ni issue, because it's far more often about perspectives than values.

    I can see the INFPs could in some cases be more inward and so overlooked, but possibly having a stronger desire to be acknowledged as unique. In this way the INFJ could be seen as the competition and these threads are one way to take them down a notch?
    Since INFPs did not create this thread, then I'd say no. I'm not looking to take anyone down a notch to look better. I think I explained my motive in a previous post. You'll notice that none of my criticisms have anything to do with being "unique" or seen that way (rather, "flawless" and "unselfish"), although I don't think INFPs have a stronger desire to be seen as unique than some other types.

    I realize this is a bit blunt, but let's say that this premise in this thread that INFJs don't admit flaws is true. What are the INFP flaws and are there any NFs on the rampage to point them out?
    I think "rampage" is quite an exaggeration .
    Of course INFPs have flaws, and they have been discussed before in other threads. You're welcome to make another if that makes you feel better.

    Are INFP admitting their flaws? Are they rejecting being placed on pedestals and so forth?
    Yes. INFPs will often "admit" to flaws they may not even have. That's not a good thing either. In person, ISFPs have even more of a problem with this lack of self-confidence. It stems from too high standards & a different kind of obliviousness.

    INFPs are not frequently placed on pedestals online... and when they are, then you're likely to see many refute it. Sometimes I find it annoying (and perhaps INFJs find being put on a pedestal distasteful as well), because the reasons are usually not very flattering (ie. the fluffy bunny stuff).

    Admiration is a two-edged sword with contempt on the reverse side since both are intimately tied to envy.
    While this is true, I don't think it applies here. The points I've made are regarding people I like(d), but have/had frustrations with, not people I necessarily admired.

    I think crying "jealousy" is something of a cop out too... It's fine to defend yourself, but you're trying to discredit me instead of my points. Even if someone has bad motive, they can still make valid points.
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  5. #55
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    @ PB's response to fia
    Using the same appearance analogy, the response received feels something like the INFJ asking "Do I have anything in my teeth, or anything else I missed before I go out? Is there something I should be aware of?" and someone responding with a 20 point list of all of the things they've always hated about our appearance, ending with us wanting to "admit" that our taste has always been extraordinarily bad, we only think we know how to dress ourselves and an offer to be our new stylist.

    After a number of threads like this, I realize that Fi-ers generally are kind of brutally honest with each other (presenting it in various terms depending on the hearer feels inauthentic, maybe?) and it sounds loving to the Fi receiver so no offense is taken. However, anyone who has been around here this long has to be aware that Fe users will not receive it in the same way. To me, it only makes sense to adjust the mode of communication to achieve the intended goal if you know that not doing so may prevent the person from receiving an important piece of information. That doesn't mean changing the message, but it does mean putting some thought into how the person will likely respond most openly to what you have to say.

    To Fe ears, anything said means there are about 10 things left implied that are far worse for each point. Therefore, coming from someone with whom there is insufficient relationship to supply context, and who is admittedly approaching from an antagonistic rather than constructive perspective, it is unwelcome. Does it mean that INFJs are unwilling or unable to cop to any flaws? I don't think so. With the particular post in question, it feels as if the writer expects all INFJs to patently agree with all observations or else they are just as blind and selfish as the real life INFJs that said person already likes but doesn't admire (I find it hard to like people I don't admire, so I think maybe I assume automatically that others work the same way). OA has requested some thought and perspective on why the INFJs act as they do and what they recognize as familiar in her list. If perspective for why certain behaviour is offered though, it seems that she is saying INFJs are attempting to "sidestep" and avoid taking responsibility. It feels like we're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

    I think the issue I take is delivery and intent, which seems to be less of an issue to Fi users than expression and personal truth. I'm open to discussion with someone who either truly wants to understand what makes our behaviour make sense to us (and allows them to see it in a more charitable or comprehensible light while making us aware of the repercussions it has) or someone who truly wants to help and feels we are missing something important that will improve communication between us and other types. Either is fine. But you can't deliver in an offensive way, offer someone no valid way to respond and then finish with an "AHA! So you see, you simply are a bad person, as are all other of your ilk and you won't change my mind on that!". I just have no patience for it.

    Bringing up the issue of how INFJs are generally perceived on the internet as opposed to the context right here (especially without stating that fact) just seems like it is someone who got burned on INFJs looking for a dumping ground. It takes away their credibility.

    Finally, admitting to being curious as to how the INFJs will react because one is naturally inclined towards stirring the pot seems less mature even than the ENTP pastime of trying different things that they know will be irritating to NFPs just to see how they will react.

    As I'm writing this though, I'm realizing that most of my beefs have to to with the ultimate goal of interaction. If I can't figure out what the other person's intended outcome of a negative exchange is, it frustrates me no end because there is no way to bridge the gap, measure whether the it can be achieved or engage productively. It feels like being forced to walk somewhere unfamiliar with a blind fold on and then have other people upset that you bump into things.

    If real dialogue is to occur, I think that asking questions about our reasoning and thoughts (which probably seems uncomfortably intrusive and not all that personally useful), rather than making statements about an entire type of people (who are not all exactly the same) to engender discussion would be a better place to start.

    I agree with you, PB that the Fi minority thing is part of what sparks going on the offensive. On the other hand, it's not like others don't also experience their introverted function being misunderstood, that it isn't difficult to explain to others or that we don't know how to proceed when that function is undervalued. Ni and Ti have been the source of a lot of frustration in my workplace to me and yet they largely define who I am, where my attention goes and what I value. Te is probably one of the biggest factors in people being heard (in a corporation) and being put into positions of influence.

  6. #56
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    I think what's interesting about threads like these is they are an abstraction of an abstraction, almost... I mean, they end up being about the supposed negative aspects of an entire 'Type', even though 'Type' itself is an abstraction. Thus when speaking of a Groups' flaws, it's like a no-win situation, because an *individual* within a group who doesn't relate to the Group tendencies being identified will either be an 'outlier' or will be viewed as being in denial about something if they don't see it within themselves.

    I know a few nfj's irl. One of them is very judgey, and imo she'd fall into the faults of thinking she's selfless and playing more of the martyr role, and she also comes across as a pretty black-and-white person -> Which, tbh, is very different from most nfj's I know. BUT, I also know that a lot of people aren't going to believe me on this, or have a whole different set of life experiences with nfj's. But, this person would never fall into making promises she won't keep, is highly responsible for everything she does, taking a lot of ownership. I know two other infj's irl, and several online, who don't even come close to being as rigid and martyr-ish as my one irl friend, so most of the things listed in this thread don't apply to them. However, one of these other irl people does tend to be more avoidant and therefore lets things slip and *I* then interpret her actions (or inactions) as not following through with her word, sometimes. So she's an nfj who I'd say does fall back on her word, even if none of the other nfj's that I know are guilty of that.

    So I think the thing is that most of these things don't all fall into a single infj individual; we each may have tendencies towards one or a few, but in all honestly I think the thing with most of these threads is that you can't directly apply Trends to Individuals. I'm thinking which one we veer towards is more directly tied to our enneagram and/or instinctual variant. I realize though that even by my saying/believing this, that I'll be read by some as being deluded. And, I suppose this is also a statement of my own thoughts on it, which are in the end, only my thoughts.

    That, and... I've noticed some individuals of any type really have issues with certain Types in general, and sometimes I think it just boils down to personal preference and simply not liking a certain Type, when you get down to it. I mean it's certainly not just an infp/infj thing.... you can see it any similar threads on here.... SFJ's hating on TJ's, TJ's finding FJ's utterly distasteful, FP's having core issues with TJ's, FJ's having issues with NP's, or with TP's, etc. I think some of that inevitably bleeds into any of these threads.
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    This thread is fascinating and if I wasn't so tired I would read it all. But I will finish that my biggest gripe with INFJ (outside of the black and white thinking and ridiculous paranoia) is the ass-kissing and blowing smoke! I have observed this phenomena in the INFJ site and PerC (the INFJ forum there is no doubt littered with mistypes but the phenomena is still highly evident.) Seeing two Fe users online giving fake hugs and blowing smoke up each others assholes whilst patting themselves on the back is at best facepalm inducing and at worst pure ghastly horror. I am sure that somewhere in that Ni of yours you guys are pure win beyond my ability to comprehend but my perception of you is tainted by your awful auxilary function and your outright attitude. I watch and witness as you guys get the INFPs wrong again and again. We no doubt get you guys wrong but we're open and more or less consciously aware of that possibility plus we're too busy reflecting on our inner world to really put that misconception out on display.

    My views on the matter is that: 1) Tact is overrated. Stop kissing ass, pulling your punches and express your dis-satisfaction. The pain is temporary and once overcome important lessons can be learnt. Don't stifle the chance to evolve by sugar-coating issues. We only seem to use tact when we are afraid we will feel like dicks for criticising you. If that's not the case then let the miles fly! 2) Accept the possibility that your intuition may be off. I have been told that many Ni moments are inaccurate so consider that when you go into idiotic paranoia mode. 3) Stop discussing ethics and personal values! Your Fe is too primitive for this modern era!

    That is all. Please ignore/approve/trash this rant as you see fit.

  8. #58
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    It was surprising to hear in that last thread that we were ‘telling you that your opinions were wrong’- because if I were to give that kind of feedback myself, the whole point in doing it would be to hear from the other side what’s off about it. Like, that would be the whole point of giving feedback aloud to me, to hear what I may be mistaken about- so I don’t begin to understand what Fi is looking for.
    Yes, that's great. See, what's interesting is that we're tapping into Si data so to a certain extent we've already come to a more permanent conclusion about this than you might imagine and present yourself. When it comes to value assessments, we're not offering you something that's up for debate (as perhaps you would be) but ironically, to us your viewpoints sound way more solid, because we assume for you to state them so strongly, you must have had a lot of experiences to draw from and you're not going to waver on them either.

    INFP's start off neutral about almost everything. Then, experiences are accrued over time and viewpoints start to become more ... solidified. This can sometimes happen quickly in the event of very negative experiences. I would wager folks like sorenx7 and Standuble and OA too have had specific and intense negative experiences with INFJ's and this makes their posts sound more opinionated and even come across as harsh. One VERY bad experience for us, like a bad apple, can rot the whole barrel. Often though INFP viewpoints take a loooong time to concretize - yet if there's mildly negative after negative after negative, it does get a bit difficult to still remain open to any new data coming in. And we can be wrong when we jump ahead adding data points based on extrapolation and we can err in generalizing to too great a degree.

    We do revisit though, will consider new data and are never 100% about much of anything. Even when we express a strong viewpoint, we already have in the back of our mind the exceptions to the "rule" and can think of people who break the mold, so to speak. That's likely why we can come across as wishy-washy too, since we are always about considering the benefit of the doubt and it's difficult to state a strong opinion if we only feel about 70% - 80% sure of it.

    I think that Fi needs acknowledgment that I don’t (and, it seems, that Fe doesn’t) know how to give. This comment above about something that is expressed with “10x more frequency than is reciprocated”…..seems like something Fe just doesn’t need in the first place. So sometimes it’s almost like hearing complaints about how putting coins into a snack machine never yields a cold beverage…..of course it doesn’t, whether you put 10x the amount of coins in or 100x the amount of coins- because it’s a snack machine. And any ‘snacks’ dispensed just get tossed aside as worthless because it isn’t what you’re looking for- that ‘we put in 10x without reciprocation’ goes both ways.
    We treat your emotions carefully, but not your ideas. And vice-versa. See, above I'm more concerned that fia is feeling annoyed by this thread than I am about the veracity of the ideas put forth so far. I already know that their will be outlier opinions on either end of the scale, some who really love INFJ's and othrs who dislike, so I already weight those as to where they're coming from. So we add disclaimers sometimes, that we think you're great etc etc before rendering value assessments out loud. You ask us questions about our ideas and we feel like you're probing them as though you think they're incorrect and you thus come across as defensive. Just like we can too when trying to explain our emotional expressions.

    This whole Fe/Fi thing that happens in the forum is weird.
    Yet interesting too.

    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I don't think this is a Fi/Fe issue either. I get the impression you are mainly responding to my post, and you'll notice that almost all of my points refer to Ni. Much of the time, I find clashes with INFJs to be a Ne/Ni issue, because it's far more often about perspectives than values.
    Yes, I love this. I need to come up with a new way perhaps of writing this out, to account for Ni. It's not just Fe, you're right. It's that combo, Ni + Fe interacting with Fi + Ne.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    My views on the matter is that: 1) Tact is overrated. Stop kissing ass, pulling your punches and express your dis-satisfaction. The pain is temporary and once overcome important lessons can be learnt. Don't stifle the chance to evolve by sugar-coating issues. We only seem to use tact when we are afraid we will feel like dicks for criticising you. If that's not the case then let the miles fly!
    What if an INFP uses tact for very different reasons/motives than an INFJ does? There's also the possibility that you're interpreting our use of tact by thinking about how and why YOU use tact, and then thinking we have the same reasons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    What if an INFP uses tact for very different reasons/motives than an INFJ does? There's also the possibility that you're interpreting our use of tact by thinking about how and why YOU use tact, and then thinking we have the same reasons.
    Possibly. However my criticism was not of your reasons for doing so, they are no doubt very different from my own and perhaps very well reasoned. My criticism was on the action itself and that basically there's nothing wrong with a bit of disruption to social harmony and the ethics of the group from time to time.

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