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  1. #571
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    How about this phrase: "Avast, ye scopey dogs!"
    Yes, let's turn the thread to pirate talk: "Ahoy ye long-eared INFJ's, I be looking to make communications with ye, not sending ye down to Davy Jones' Locker. Please tell me how best to phrase my ramblings so we be splicing the mainbrace together!"
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #572
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    eta: also, @Starry, everytime I see your avi and my avi right next to each other in the forum I think they SHOULD TOTALLY GET MARRIED.
    Will your avatar marry my avatar? (that was a proposal). You know what's weird though...my inclination is to take hundreds of avatars into my dressing room...and change to a new one everyday...but you would not believe the rep comments I get on this avatar! From female members that know who he is...to those that don't. Your avatar has a lot of competition (she's not the jealous type right? haha I don't even know what I'm saying).

  3. #573
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    hmm, i like where this is going...
    @uumlau - can my midget ride your unicorn?

  4. #574
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    @uumlau, I believe your line here is "Yeah ok"

  5. #575
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I just think it sends a conflicting/confusing message when you or SK or anyone says she is making a good-faith effort to reach-out to INFJs in order to better understand them. What I have seen for nearly 3 years now is INFJs responding to her message (this same message)...having their responses rejected...and then a few months later rinse and repeat. How long should this process continue?
    Ah, I see. ENFP to the core, I am horribly unobservant, and unsurprisingly I have not noted that! Props to you for being an observant ENFP.

    I did my homework - now I understand what you meant before - and I see what you mean. I agree that it is a longstanding pattern and the issue is definitely more personal than typological - but there is still some kind of hangup where type is concerned. Also - all of us here know N and F both really struggle to process well where there is divisiveness and conflict, so we can safely assume that at some instinctive level, OA hates them too, and would prefer to eradicate their existence. It is something all NFs share.

    The fascinating thing about this thread to me is that I can begin to understand OA's perspective from the post content (at least, to the extent that I have been able to keep up!) INFJs approach matters so differently from the native Ne-Fi approach that it can feel like refusal to interact. NFP Ne-Te processes are expansive, inclusive, categorical; NFJ Ni-Ti processes are distilling, honing, analytical. NFP Fi process is concerned with feeling within; NFJ Fe is concerned with feeling between. The NFJ approach can feel like a Fe fence around a Ni-Ti tower. It seemed that INFJs were unwilling to even consider that OA's feelings were legitimate: I assume now this is because they do not Ni-Ti agree with her premise of what INFJs are doing to create those feelings - in addition to all the unpleasantness of her tone, which would be repelling to anyone, of course. From that Ni-Ti perspective, assuming I grasp it well enough, I can understand why there could be no point in engaging. Nothing useful can come of exploring a premise that we know to be incorrect in its definition, particularly if the language it's couched in suggests further disharmony to come.

    Regardless, from the perspective that INFJs are just refusing to consider that someone else might be right, I can begin to understand OA's tone. If she kept posting this idea, and INFJs being INFJs, continued responding to it in essentially similar ways, then it would simply reinforce her conclusion, escalating her negative feelings even more. The gist of her post, as I see it, is that INFJs see themselves as always right/good/correct. And that's really funny to me, because a longstanding joke between myself and my ENFJ best friend is that she's always right. We laugh about it now, but it took me years to understand that she didn't actually think that: her communications and behavior seemed to support it. Thankfully, she's going into psychology, so we've broken each other's psyches (and egos!) down many times over our years of friendship.

    I took the time today to "answer" OA's list with trying to explain to myself why these feelings may have arisen, mostly based on my interactions with my ENFJ friend. It might be generally irrelevant, but I wanted to post it because I think something like this may have been what some of us were expecting - at least, the reason why OA came to have these feelings is the question I have been searching for an answer for throughout this whole thread.

    1. General paranoia.

    Ni is a forecasting mechanism in many ways; all NJs harbor some gift of "seeing into the future". Inescapably, some of that future is going to be harmful and painful - and it's human nature to protect against that. I understand this deeply as an enneagram 6 and share this with Ni users: the future is coming, and all we can do is try to identify the dangers before it's too late to protect ourselves. Others who see this and do not have that same danger-seeking tendency may think that we are unreasonably paranoid, but to us they seem blissfully ignorant.

    2. Selfishness and denial; playing tyrant/victim.

    All any of us can do is give in the way we understand best, since the only place we have to start is ourselves - our understanding of "good", our understanding of "help", everything that is the foundation of our existence in this world plays into that. None of us can ever escape our perspective. What I have experienced with my NFJ friend is that she will tend to guide me in certain directions that she also travels in not because she wants to benefit personally from it, but because she genuinely believes that her chosen direction is the singular best to go towards. It would be wrong/cruel to guide me in any other way than what she believes to be best.

    What I have learned as an NFP is this often means waiting until I have a filled out picture of my idea that is different from hers before presenting it, and then demonstrating it to her and letting her see how it is good. Often, when she sees that final picture, she'll acknowledge that it is good, too - she might even get really excited about it, or change her own mind, as well. But she needs that filled out picture from me to do that - this seems consistent with the ideas of cake and spaghetti that have been presented in this thread. Up until that point, however, if she can't see how something is beneficial, she can't in good conscience support it. (The "spaghetti dinner", it turns out, is an unconventional spaghetti lasagna. You let an NFP be in charge of the kitchen, what do you expect?)

    3. They will not take personal responsibility* for any problem in their life.

    I think @SilkRoad explained this well at some point in the thread. Honestly, INFJs probably don't usually cause a lot of problems in their lives, at least not direct causation, not an action that directly precipitated the current circumstance. Ni doms look so far ahead all the time and Fe users are so aware of external effect that it's very unlikely for them to unwittingly create an obstacle.

    That said, I have experienced a situation where my ENFJ friend refused to accept any blame for an issue that she played a part in, and the way I see it, she was just one more chain in a link of people that caused the problem - but to her, because she wasn't the final link, she wasn't part of the real problem. I say that her interaction played into the problem as a whole; she says that if the final person hadn't done what they did, it wouldn't be a problem. Both of us are right, I figure. I think her precise meaning of "responsibility" is different than mine - I think hers is more about direct precipitation of external effect. She expressed remorse for the process in its entirety.

    4. General delusion*.

    Ni is focused differently than Ne; it discards what it doesn't see as important. Ne drags along everything for the ride regardless of whether it is true or real or not. Which one is more delusional?

    5. They are not simply sensitive to criticism; they refuse to acknowledge they have flaws at all.

    What I have learned with my ENFJ friend is that she seems icy on the surface sometimes but is in fact very deeply sensitive to criticism, but will not display it outwardly - I don't think she really sees any point in engaging the external world in it. She carries a lot of anxiety, hurt, upset, and unease deep down inside... she spends a huge amount of time worrying about whether she's living up to her mother's expectations, for instance. NFPs present their flaws to the world for everyone to see; NFJs contain them. NFPs hide other things. The two types just put different things in different mental places.

    Also, let me grab that Van der Hoop quote:

    [Ni dominants] may make demands on others without being prepared to meet the same demands themselves. Egotism, and a desire to dominate, may cause them to use these requirements of an ideal relationship to benefit their own agenda.
    The thing with Ni is that their agenda is the "best" agenda (as seen through the Ni lens). So of course everything is going to be tailored to benefit that agenda; nothing else would make sense. Fi does the same thing. We create an "ideal" version of the world, too, and we too are led by egotism to apply those values to everyone. But just because we make demands doesn't mean we always live up to our ideals, either.

    6. They make promises or state intentions they either cannot keep or don't intend to keep.

    This item is the one I understand least and do not think I have ever experienced, short of my own understanding of "manipulation" that I brought up earlier, wherein something is framed in a specific way seemingly to encourage specific behavior. I do know that my ENFJ friend will do this purposefully at times when she is trying to create a good behavior in someone's life who is resistant to that behavior. I do that in some respects, too, though: I try to discourage my alcoholic friend from drinking, etc. That is all I can really say about this one.

    7. INSANE double standards.

    A misperception created by flipped functions and the Ni-Fe nature of strict behavioral control outside accompanied by containing personal worries and shortcomings inside.

    Answered my own lingering questions - maybe inaccurately, but as best as I could. If anyone wants to correct my understanding, they're more that welcome. At least maybe something in there can help to open some doors to mutual understanding. It's worth a shot.

    I just hope I don't offend anyone accidentally with anything! I apologize in advance!










    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    hmm, i like where this is going...
    @uumlau - can my midget ride your unicorn?
    This is the worst mental picture I have had all day.


  6. #576
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    ^ i will say one thing for INFJs: whenever this thread smelled like it's dying, and everyone seemed quite happy about that, it was always someone with no Fe who'd reactivate it and decide to bring it back on track.

  7. #577
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Judgement is always better trained on oneself or the impersonal world.

    There is a lesson here ive always thought.

    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  8. #578
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Judgement is always better trained on oneself or the impersonal world.

    There is a lesson here ive always thought.

    i've being wondering when you'll show up.

    first of all i might add the disclaimer:


    now for the main point: i won't talk particulars, that's your own personal stuff, but in general, i perceive you as the exact opposite of what has being said here, as in, the other extreme.

    i've seen you trying to take responsibility for what you have done what you haven't done what you highly unlikely to have being the cause others to do in a 70 mile chain of causality.

    you question yourself so much that you can make me look bad (humbling) even at my most extreme NeFe loop states (which is why initially i thought you might be an NeFe looper).

    you are constantly looking back on things and revisiting them by placing yourself in the shoes of other people on the other side of any equation. in each and every single case where you described yourself having trouble with someone else not meeting a standard you thought you had, you then expressed or thought out loud of cases showing how you understand that you too don't quite fit it and that it's just normal and human.

    you find yourself to be wrong, A LOT - in the good way. you are constantly finding new things you've think you've done wrong or have being wrong about, and you don't seem the slightest bit shy about talking about those openly. it's like.. if we where a tribe of rats in a maze, your mind is the one building a mental profile of all the wrong-ways to go and what's a wrong-path looks like.

    in essence, you are the exact opposite of the INFJs that me, OA, standuable, skylight and others here have encountered in our respective RL's. you are the other extreme on the exact same spectrum.

    what gives?

  9. #579
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    And to the rest of your post: there is a big difference between doubting someone’s sincerity/motivations and doubting something *is* what someone is saying it is. If it’s about a person’s feelings- then yes, content should be treated like it is what they’re saying it is. But that’s precisely why that shouldn’t be mixed with supposedly ‘objective’ theory. There is a huge difference (at least in my mind) between doubting someone’s sincerity and simply doubting what they’re saying (not about their intentions…but about the ‘theory’ they are presenting) is the Truth.
    You must be careful here. Just because you don't see how 'objective' and subjective views can work together effectively, doesn't mean it can't work. It might cause confusion for you, yes - and that's something NFPs should try to clear up as best we can in future - but just because it confuses you doesn't mean there is no valid use or worth in mixing the two. At very least, it is something we cannot help because we don't see the world in such distinct divisions as you do.

    I'm not saying you have to agree - I'm just saying, please keep an open mind to other forms of reasoning than your own and don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    I do want to ask though, SK, specifically which parenthetical phrase you are referring to with this:
    Oops sorry. I see now there were multiple brackets. I'll put the whole thing to help with context. The bolded was most interesting to me:

    I’m not quite sure how to reconcile this. I think on our end, at least part of this reconciliation means trying to remember that what looks like *playing stupid* (or ‘trying to enforce a really self-serving, short-sighted pov’) is actually just ‘presenting raw batter where we would be presenting finished cake’. Getting offended by it is, I believe, projecting a tendency to prioritize doing that work internally (I suspect seeing Fe’ers as ‘believing we are RIGHT’ is similarly about projecting a tendency to prioritize introverted judgment about an immediate/isolated context….and expecting us to be able to share brand new judgment immediately- which we can’t do because it isn’t our priority to investigate new judgment immediately.....eta: and the truth is rather that we've just put judgment completely on hold).
    Do you mean that the Fi assumption of a Fe judgement, is like the Ni assumption of a Ne conclusion?

    @Tiltyred I find your spaghetti metaphor interesting and amusing. I guess a demonstration of what Z Buck said about the appearance of intentional stupidity. "Spaghetti? What spaghetti? What are you insinuating?"

    This is basically the equivalent of my sky metaphor. To me the sky is plainly blue and INFJs want me to justify my reasoning for thinking that. Weird...

    In the TypeC version, INFP just keeps having a blind compulsion to go into the kitchen and rattle pots and pans, gets out the big pot and starts water running, puts a box of noodles on the counter and gets out the tomato sauce, and INFJ says "Oh shit, here we go with the spaghetti again." And people hear the noise in the kitchen and ask INFJ what's going on, and INFJ says "INFP is having another go at spaghetti," and people talk about whether it's spaghetti or linguine and wonder why the ingredients are flying all over the place, somebody tries to show INFP how to dice a tomato (which advise is refused on the grounds that she's not trying to dice it, she's trying to cut it into small pieces, but if you suggest that dice and small piece are the same thing, you're accused of just wanting to be correct all the time), somebody comes in with a bar rag and goes over the counters, somebody says I think her aunt lived in Italy actually, somebody says they don't even like spaghetti, somebody goes over the etymology of spaghetti, someone else informs the crowd of the difference between spaghetti and egg noodles, somebody else says man, I was married to her cousin and she threw the spaghetti pot at me so hard I have a knot on my head to this day, let us examine this matter of spaghetti, and INFP screams from the kitchen, "IT IS NOT SPAGHETTI!" and INFJ says "I KNOW SPAGHETTI WHEN I SEE IT!"
    Exactly.

    To take the metaphor further: say that the cooked spaghetti the INFJ sees, is in fact raamen. The INFJ then talks on about the INFP cooking Italian. The INFP is baffled and confused because they're aiming for Asian cuisine. Italian and Asian food being nothing alike in flavours they don't get where this random Italian comments are coming from. The INFP doesn't see that by rattling the pots, boiling water etc, and cooking numerous, long, thin, dough-based food, is setting all sort of signals off to the INFJ.

    Perhaps the INFP works out that the INFJ has mistaken raamen for spaghetti and tries to convince the INFJ of this. But the INFJ says, "that's ridiculous! Why would anyone cook Italian food using raamen? It has to be spaghetti".
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  10. #580
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i've being wondering when you'll show up.

    first of all i might add the disclaimer:


    now for the main point: i won't talk particulars, that's your own personal stuff, but in general, i perceive you as the exact opposite of what has being said here, as in, the other extreme.

    i've seen you trying to take responsibility for what you have done what you haven't done what you highly unlikely to have being the cause others to do in a 70 mile chain of causality.

    you question yourself so much that you can make me look bad (humbling) even at my most extreme NeFe loop states (which is why initially i thought you might be an NeFe looper).

    you are constantly looking back on things and revisiting them by placing yourself in the shoes of other people on the other side of any equation. in each and every single case where you described yourself having trouble with someone else not meeting a standard you thought you had, you then expressed or thought out loud of cases showing how you understand that you too don't quite fit it and that it's just normal and human.

    you find yourself to be wrong, A LOT - in the good way. you are constantly finding new things you've think you've done wrong or have being wrong about, and you don't seem the slightest bit shy about talking about those openly. it's like.. if we where a tribe of rats in a maze, your mind is the one building a mental profile of all the wrong-ways to go and what's a wrong-path looks like.

    in essence, you are the exact opposite of the INFJs that me, OA, standuable, skylight and others here have encountered in our respective RL's. you are the other extreme on the exact same spectrum.

    what gives?
    Hah thanks for the good words My Mane man! But to be fair, it's easier to think back on an act and assess your reactions and actions, than it is to do so in the heat of the moment. I won't lie, there were times when I was very moody on this holiday ive just had and while I did apologise and solve my error's afterwards, there are times I didn't .

    However, I will say that it's easier for me to talk about aiming judgement on myself than others, rather than doing it, but it's something ive now realised I wish to obtain. The first step has been a big one; realising that I needn't be so up-tight about my mistakes or how I appear to others.

    In fact this holiday helped. My best friend, (not sure on type), decided to take an idea he had used on skiing trips with his university and then apply it to our group holiday. Essentially it involved the terms "Dick of the day" and "Stack of the day".

    Stack of the day involves the person who had the most spectacular fall on a day out skiing. Whoever the unfortunate individual was, had to wear a cow-bell bought from a local shop. As with dick of the day the group could all vote at the end of the day on whose fall was the best. I didn't win this honour though.

    Dick of the day involves a person wearing a T-shirt for some perceived move of dickishness. This is summed up by a democratic appeal by the group where each member can suggest any acts of dickishness they have seen. This was then recorded for each day on the back of the T-shirt in permanent marker, explaining what the act was and what day it happened on. For example on the first day, I forgot not once, but twice my rucksack, even after being reminded of it constantly by others.

    Normally I would have been apprehensive, nervous and eventually angry at the ridicule I knew I would receive. But with this element in place, I realised how little it mattered, a minor detail and what's more a potentially humourous one. In fact this system helped me understand my own nature very well in terms of failure and self-loathing. I was able to understand that my automatic assumption on what others would think, an idea I had about how the interaction would go down, (Ni+Fe), was in fact crippling me and making me unnecessarily angsty. So instead I turned the judgement on myself.

    Instead of anger towards how others would react, (which I had no proof of at all), I saw my role and place within this system as a humourous one and it let me understand and react in a more positive manner, as opposed to a defensive negative one. This is of course hard to do and it was only then I realised what Lenore Thompson was talking about when she wrote that it takes a 'deliberate and conscious effort' to train the secondary function on oneself.

    Sadly this is a lesson that must be repeated for people though out their lives, after all one situation is hardly going to be the definer for the entire wealth of experiences in life.

    Also I will mention, although i'm sure ive told you this before, that my lack of experience in a romantic relationship means it is far too easy for me to maintain an emotional distance from such issues. In fact those experiences involve a much deeper entwining of psyche's and emotional states, much more so than mere group ridicule.

    But that is step two.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

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