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  1. #561
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    *nod nod*

  2. #562
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    You are a very evolved individual uumlau. This is apparent in each and every post you make on this forum - I've always recognized this in you. And what you say above is...I believe...the 'healthy' thing to do. But I do feel there is something about say...our types...both MBTI & enneagram that makes doing the above easier. Believe it or not I still haven't had enough coffee yet to explain what I am attempting to say...but yah. There does seem to be something that doesn't feel right about saying the above to an INFJ...something that feels like misunderstanding what they are experiencing/feeling.

    edit...I should say...saying the above in this kind of circumstance.
    Yeah, I'd say that my (general theoretical) advice on the topic would be kind of hard for an INFJ e6 to take, especially if counterphobic. Sometimes the worst thing to tell people in a heated argument is, "calm down."
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  3. #563
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    The cat analogy is excellent, @uumlau. I am really enjoying and appreciating your contributions to this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    @skylights -- what I'm hearing is that INFJs have reached out, and it hasn't made any difference, that for some reason OA keeps bringing her same axe to grind, such that as soon as INFJs see her coming, they know what the deal is -- they will be accused of certain things, and nothing anyone says will give her any relief, or no matter what they admit to or apologize for, it won't be enough. "Omg, please, not this again."
    I think I see what you mean - it's like it keeps getting harped on. I can agree with that and I see why it would create frustration. On my end, I do apologize for seeming to harp on it too. The point isn't trying to grind it into the ground - to me, it still feels like a loose end.

    I think that from the NFP viewpoint, it may still feel like the implicit question in OA's post remains unresolved:
    If that isn't what INFJs do, then how did she (or how could someone else) end up with that impression?

    I hate to get back on the subject of the OP, but the thing about the prompt is that it had two "parts": the first being what INFJs do and the second being "that drives [INFPs] nuts". Maybe OA got the part about exactly what INFJs are doing wrong - and I guess to Ni/Ti that invalidates her entire point - but to me it seems like clearly something about INFJs does drive her nuts, regardless, and to me it seems like the whole point of a thread like this would be to explore the reason for those feelings. We may never know without her input, of course, but if others have had those feelings too, we could discuss the Ne possibilities for the origins of those Fi feelings.

  4. #564
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Carry on then.

  5. #565
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    My conception of the "NFP story" is this: OA answered the prompt; she was making a contribution within fair bounds of the posed request. No, it wasn't friendly, and yes, the tone was kind of self-serving, but she did provide genuine information to work with, and that information was never addressed in the way the original premise of the thread suggested it would be. It was startling and somewhat ironic that the conversation turned almost immediately into what was fair or not fair to blame INFJs for, instead of what INFJs do that drives INFPs crazy. So, IMO, the "NFP story" is simply that the original premise had been departed from completely as of OA's list.

    It almost seems like that post created a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. It was clearly the point where a major disconnect occurred, like some weird kind of stalemate where INFJs wouldn't touch her ideas because they're presented in too offensive a format, but all it would take for her format to become less offensive would be someone touching those ideas - all that's needed is just one INFJ to shatter the dystopian paradigm.

    It reminds me of something a Fe user explained once (sorry, I can't remember who!) about needing a "safe space" for exchange of personal information - how harmony was a prerequisite to sharing, not an assumed point of conclusion. Perhaps the stalemate occurred because the FJ safe sharing space was immediately shut down by that threat of attack - but it's unfortunate because what OA needed to reestablish harmony was for an FJ to reach out.
    OMG thank goodness for 'Auto Restore Content' (or whatever it is called). My computer battery is dying and it shut down on me! Anyhoo...

    I think a lot of what I would say in response to this post was in my response to PB just prior to this message. I think you may have been writing this out when I posted it. What you say makes quite a bit of sense if this had been the first time this had occurred but this has been going on for a long time. With INFJs responding...doing what they can to try and understand. But in spite of these efforts things do not progress...and I guess the frustration is feeling like they always arrive back at square-one. So in this way I can understand that feeling of...'No seriously, what do you want?' 'Please tell us what your intentions are.'

    ^^So then some NFPs arrive saying...'She's looking for your input. She's hurt or >insert whatever feeling< and is sincerely attempting to modify her perspective.' Which even to me is a massive 'mixed message'. I will say that the entire time I've been here I've never believed that. Before I truly took a look at this thing I was feeling more of what you were saying above. 'Hey man, she answered the call.' And uumlau's suggestion of (although I'm simplifying it here to fit what I was actually saying)...'Don't even pay attention to her if it upsets you. It's not worth it.' But I was speaking from type. And now that I'm looking at it from a larger vantage point...it is easier to see where the conflicts/issues are. And I would feel good about it ending at this point. That does not mean I believe the issues that were raised should not be addressed - not in the least. I want to find out why I seem to repeatedly do #3 from the list haha.

  6. #566
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I don't really feel that emotional. This is the useful part of these threads that I like when the real conflict has lost steam and the post-mortem begins to see if there is anything of use that can be taken away. My tone gets a little more abrupt as I get more frustrated with not being able to communicate directly despite both speaking the same language. I'm not even sure where those disconnects are so I can't improve the problem and I just feel stymied. That bugs me, but it's not really about the people in the thread that much. I mean, there's momentary irritation, but nothing that's going to keep me awake at night. I think there are INFJs that are upset by this thread, but I'm not sure it's for the same reasons that the INFPs might perceive it is. Similarly, I can see that we're not improving things, but I'm not sure where the disconnect is. I mean, everyone feels like they've said the same thing a million times, and then suddenly when it's rephrased just slightly, it becomes useful to the other party. I wish I knew how to expedite that process!

    The more this thread goes along the more it reminds me of this fid post. There's a difference between 'needing to get in the last word' and 'ironing out nuances that are interesting to see if there's something useful to take away'. But maybe because it's viewable to everyone- and (like Starry said in previous post) those 'nuances' seem somehow 'wrong' to iron out to some- it's just a mistake.


    eta:
    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I think a lot of what I would say in response to this post was in my response to PB just prior to this message. I think you may have been writing this out when I posted it. What you say makes quite a bit of sense if this had been the first time this had occurred but this has been going on for a long time. With INFJs responding...doing what they can to try and understand. But in spite of these efforts things do not progress...and I guess the frustration is feeling like they always arrive back at square-one. So in this way I can understand that feeling of...'No seriously, what do you want?' 'Please tell us what your intentions are.'
    And thank you, Starry, for seeing it.

    eta: also, @Starry, everytime I see your avi and my avi right next to each other in the forum I think they SHOULD TOTALLY GET MARRIED.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  7. #567
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    In an interesting thread twist, I am aligned with Mane here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    it seems to me that - regardless if your specific line of metaphysics even includes an objective world - the understanding of any interaction with anyone should be aspiring it out to a leveled playing field, the larger world in which both skills and their content exist, and judge yourself and your actions within that larger platform for understanding, and its on that platform where you are able to wrong others, because it's there where your consequences towards others exist, within a world that includes both your own and their perspective.
    This is exactly it.

    this is why i always say the only world in which you won't be wrong is a world in which the perspective of others doesn't exit. once you include that of others, you will unavoidably find yourself in situations where you've wronged them.
    And exactly that. It's not about right or wrong. It's about perspective. Right or wrong is a power game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    again, you and the metaphor seem to be missing what i am saying:
    in what context is person B doing X to person A is wrong? in the realm and experience of person A, where A has being wronged. whether doing X to A is wrong is derived from A's experience of X.

    to apply to the metaphor (and stretch beyond it's usefulness): B's intention of making chicken Parmesan rather then spaghetti bolognese are irrelevant if the reason A objected to spaghetti bolognese are that A is allergic to oregano.
    An effective stretch of the metaphor, I like it. It's about taste, choice, necessity, economy, survival even - not about who's right or wrong. Since when is a personal preference even about right or wrong?

    sausage-spaghetti.jpg

    You come to my house, I make you spaghetti (let's assume we both like spaghetti). But you don't like it because you don't like oregano. Does you disliking an ingredient in the sauce make me, the cook wrong? Perhaps I would be wrong if I knew your tastes in the first place and then added even more oregano to boot, just to add insult to the meal. (This, I imagine, is what INFJ's think OA is doing, adding extra oregano.)

    But if I don't know you don't like oregano, how else am I supposed to know? Watch your face, body language? Sure. Ask you for feedback? Sure. You tell me you don't like the sauce. Great, now I have a starting point at least! But then, since there are 10 ingredients in my pasta sauce, how will I know that you object only to the oregano? I'm left considering every ingredient, omitting each one in turn, in a bid to make a spaghetti sauce that pleases you. (This would be me in thread, going through every option I can think of to figure out what's got INFJ's bothered.)

    Then, there are additional considerations. Maybe that version of my pasta sauce is the only recipe I know. Maybe it's my best recipe. Maybe you just don't like greek oregano, but you actually like sweet marjoram. I could buy sweet marjoram. Maybe I think you disliking it the first time was only because you were having a bad day before you got to my house. Sheesh.

    ***Please, can't you just tell me you don't like oregano in the first place! It would save so much time!***

    ETA: now, if you don't KNOW you don't like oregano, it's going to take more work for us to figure it out together. (That's what brings me back to this thread and this issue all the time it seems.) But don't just shut down! Don't stop coming to my house and eating with me! Don't assume I made yukky sauce to make sure you don't come back! We can figure it out you know.

    And then after dinner, maybe you will be open to looking at my 1000 vacation pictures! jkjk
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #568
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I guess I'm just naive then? I didn't think it was in bad faith? I still do believe it's a good faith effort.
    What you wrote above was sad/hard for me to read. I even put some thought in how to respond...but of course that didn't do me any good ha. But 'naivety' is probably one of the last things I would describe you as. I think your scope is vast (is that even a phrase? 'scope is vast'? sounds kinda weird but I think you might know what I'm saying)...and nothing much gets by you. I wouldn't even say you're 'naive' in this instance. And much of what you have already said...I don't think we see things all that much differently. I think you are just within the border of 'good faith effort'...and I'm just inside 'not trying to understand but rather persuade others to her view'. I don't know what accounts for this difference as I generally side with you 99% of the time so I guess it is exciting that we have discovered an area where we disagree! I think that's kinda cool...especially since I have such a great respect for your reason. Or reasoning. Your overall reasoning abilities and quick, bright mind.

  9. #569
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I think your scope is vast(is that even a phrase? 'scope is vast'? sounds kinda weird but I think you might know what I'm saying)
    How about this phrase: "Avast, ye scopey dogs!"
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  10. #570
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    How about this phrase: "Avast, ye scopey dogs!"
    See now I wish I actually wrote 'I think you're avast, ye scopey dogs!' For the rest of my life I will wish I had done this haha!!! That is so funny.

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