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  1. #551
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Your point is, I believe, that B is doing something to offend A, and that is manifestly and concretely wrong, and one's inability to acknowledge that wrong is a great personal fault. I don't disagree with that very strongly (it's a very good principle with only a few minor caveats that would distract discussion).
    poor wording on my part - i meant to say that whether doing X to A has wronged A is derived from A's experience of X. that doesn't in itself mean that X was wrong within the larger context, B's reasons for doing X are certainly part of it as well; i'm not stating that the consequences of the means never justify the end - for example if you hurt someone in self defense you are wronging the offender but probably haven't done something wrong - but rather, the context has to include both B's reason for X and A's experience of X in order to determine whether it was justified - whether X was wrong.

    as derivative from that, your advice is invalid: the information of A's experience of X is critical for B to understand that it did anything wrong in the first place. A has to give B that information.

    once you have a full picture of the shared platform of interaction - B's reasons for X and A's experience of X, only then it can be said that B might have to "understand on their own" why they did X, what elapses of judgement they might have had, because there can certainly be information about it that only they would have.

    but ofcourse, that's assuming that what appears to be the full picture is the full picture, and given natural human limitations, it rarely is, which is why a back and forth exchange of information is valuable.

    but let's say that you do have the full picture. even then the statement of "find out on their own" it isn't quite true, since in the end of the day we aren't all special snowflakes, and because it is in the end of the day a rational problem happening to two subjects within a shared reality within the larger subject field in which everyone has gained some expertise in - the art of being human - and as such, any extra perspective and experience can help B gain insight into the elapses in judgement. while it's true that A might be biased in that regard, it is also the most likely to have invested interest, and as such, still useful.

    on a side note - another derivative is that to maintain that, A has to be open for that information, and it would be impossible for A to judge their actions truthfully without it.

  2. #552
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Okay, so I've got a question about this. This is pretty much the attitude I took after initially reading her posts. But it wasn't going away, in fact she almost seems to slowly be getting more bitter and more bitter and (however inadvertently) she has slowly roped 'us' into it by dropping asides here and there about how we weren't 'copping up'. So....just keep ignoring it? Maybe set the firm boundary that if she is going to imply something aloud about the INFJs here- she needs to be willing to be questioned about it (just because that's the way shared reality works)?
    Without pointing fingers or naming names, consider all the "whiny INTPs" complaining about INTJs. I pay attention when they say something of substance, and often reply, but when the topic of discussion goes back to how arrogant INTJs are (or whatever other fault), I drop the discussion. It's not a complete doorslam, but I refuse to rehash old debates that others want to chew and rechew like bubble gum left on the bedpost overnight.

    Some people have issues they need to work out, and I give them the chance at open discussion and work things out. And, surprisingly often, they actually do work out and we learn from each other. If the discussion ends up not going in productive directions, though, I've no qualms about dropping it, and have absolutely no drive to have "the last word" or whatever.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  3. #553
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    uumlau
    You said, "As far as the topic of this thread, none of the INFP or INFJ "wrongs" mentioned in this thread fit into that latter category of significant harm: they fit into the category of personal annoyances, in my estimation."

    Well, they do and they don't. If someone annoys you once or twice, fine. If someone annoys you continually, the annoyance escalates and you have to say something. If you have said several times, "Gosh, that's annoying. Could you do that someplace else?" and the response you get is "Live with it. I can annoy you if I feel like it," then that is infuriating. If the response you get is, "You're annoyed because you're in deep-seated denial and you have problems you don't even realize you have," then it leads to soul-searching and time spent carefully examining this idea, and doing a moral inventory, and reality checking with others to see if you can find evidence on either side to help you get a handle on the idea, etc. etc. -- in short, massive effort. In INFJ world, if a problem is big enough to merit even comment, it's big. If a problem is big enough for a diatribe and for not backing down, it's massive. So I think this is beyond "annoyance" and has progressed into grievance.
    This is the internet. It's fairly easy to ignore annoying posts. Now, if someone is explicitly following you around the forum and harassing you, that is worthy of "grievance". In that case, however, then just report the post(s) and the mods will take action - grievance solved.

    Otherwise, I'd say the "grievance" is more like this:
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  4. #554
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    poor wording on my part - i meant to say that whether doing X to A has wronged A is derived from A's experience of X. that doesn't in itself mean that X was wrong within the larger context, B's reasons for doing X are certainly part of it as well; i'm not stating that the consequences of the means never justify the end - for example if you hurt someone in self defense you are wronging the offender but probably haven't done something wrong - but rather, the context has to include both B's reason for X and A's experience of X in order to determine whether it was justified - whether X was wrong.

    as derivative from that, your advice is invalid: the information of A's experience of X is critical for B to understand that it did anything wrong in the first place. A has to give B that information.
    This is valid, but you're still missing my point. What you're talking about is what I would call a "boundary". Informing others of boundaries is quite different from "advice."

    Boundary - The things "up with which I will not put"
    Advice - Telling others how to fix their problems.

    Boundary is almost always safe to express without repercussions.
    Advice tends to invite resentment.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  5. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Without pointing fingers or naming names, consider all the "whiny INTPs" complaining about INTJs. I pay attention when they say something of substance, and often reply, but when the topic of discussion goes back to how arrogant INTJs are (or whatever other fault), I drop the discussion. It's not a complete doorslam, but I refuse to rehash old debates that others want to chew and rechew like bubble gum left on the bedpost overnight.
    What if someone kept saying something 'wrong' or wrong about Astrophysics? Or Calculus?
    See what you are saying (just forget it/ignore it) is...again...exactly what I had in my mind to say and perhaps did say to a close INFJ friend. But then it certainly depends on what is of interest to you personally. I have seen many 'debates' that INTJs appeared unable to 'let go' of.

  6. #556
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I feel you just don't get it, cogent, sane and right on as you usually are.
    But I don't discount the fact that you may be right and I will act accordingly.
    Or maybe it's that your 9 is uncomfortable and just wants it to be over, could that perhaps be influencing? If I may, to some extent you are ... giving advice ... if we want to stay and rechew the old gum, still hoping against hope for some flavor, is it wrong?

  7. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This is valid, but you're still missing my point. What you're talking about is what I would call a "boundary". Informing others of boundaries is quite different from "advice."

    Boundary - The things "up with which I will not put"
    Advice - Telling others how to fix their problems.

    Boundary is almost always safe to express without repercussions.
    Advice tends to invite resentment.
    hmm? no.

    the first part i talked about can have a boundary concluded from, a.k.a. if you have being informed about how someone has being hurt by your actions you can learn to avoid such actions, but isn't in itself a boundary - rather merely a description of causality within that context.

    the second part however, is in fact advice. to rephrase: person B has being informed and acknowledged their elapses of judgement, now person B has an internal problem to solve, yet despite being internal, it is a problem that only one person is trying to solve. there are obvious advantages in someone else providing aid - another perspective, another set of experience, picking up on different patterns, breaking the information down differently, knowing extra facts, etc', and ofcourse, not having person B's bias. the matter in question is part of the process of something we are all learning how to do - learning to be human and live in a human society - so the potential for external advice to be useful is quite great. while person A is biased from the conflict, person A also has accumulated experience in that art, and can thus also contribute, and is the most likely to invest effort in it, given that person A is obviously influenced by it and thus has an invested interest in solving the problem.

    now, i am assuming we are talking about actual attempts at advice, rather then masquerading ad hominem to discredit the other side of the dispute styled as "you know what's wrong with you?" 'advice'. i'm not saying here it's the later, if i would have to wager i'd guess it is for some but not for others, but i do acknowledge that possibility. i also realize that even if it isn't the case, it can appear to be the case.

  8. #558
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    What if someone kept saying something 'wrong' or wrong about Astrophysics? Or Calculus?
    Rather than trying to convince them that they're wrong (which is remarkably tough to do, if that someone is INTx), a more productive approach is to step in and say, "I believe it works like this: ..." given them an explanation, perhaps a few sources, and leave it at that. (Which is what I've been doing in this thread. Rather than saying "you're wrong", I try to present as clear a picture of what the truth is.

    It doesn't matter how true something is, if someone still doesn't believe it to be true, trying to pound it into his/her head isn't going to work any better. If my point here seems beyond the pale to anyone, just go read the politics or religion forums for a while. Even better, try to convince anyone of anything over there.

    See what you are saying (just forget it/ignore it) is...again...exactly what I had in my mind to say and perhaps did say to a close INFJ friend. But then it certainly depends on what is of interest to you personally.
    "just forget it/ignore it" is simplified compared to what I'm saying. I'm not saying you don't try to communicate clearly. I'm saying you try to communicate clearly, and maybe you are heard and maybe you are not. If they seem impervious to your reasoning, THEN ignore it for a while. There may or may not be productive discussion to be had later. But don't get yourself worked up just because someone holds an opinion with which you strongly disagree.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    "just forget it/ignore it" is simplified compared to what I'm saying. I'm not saying you don't try to communicate clearly. I'm saying you try to communicate clearly, and maybe you are heard and maybe you are not. If they seem impervious to your reasoning, THEN ignore it for a while. There may or may not be productive discussion to be had later. But don't get yourself worked up just because someone holds an opinion with which you strongly disagree.
    You are a very evolved individual uumlau. This is apparent in each and every post you make on this forum - I've always recognized this in you. And what you say above is...I believe...the 'healthy' thing to do. But I do feel there is something about say...our types...both MBTI & enneagram that makes doing the above easier. Believe it or not I still haven't had enough coffee yet to explain what I am attempting to say...but yah. There does seem to be something that doesn't feel right about saying the above to an INFJ...something that feels like misunderstanding what they are experiencing/feeling.

    edit...I should say...saying the above in this kind of circumstance.

  10. #560
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I feel you just don't get it, cogent, sane and right on as you usually are.
    But I don't discount the fact that you may be right and I will act accordingly.
    Or maybe it's that your 9 is uncomfortable and just wants it to be over, could that perhaps be influencing? If I may, to some extent you are ... giving advice ... if we want to stay and rechew the old gum, still hoping against hope for some flavor, is it wrong?
    It's totally OK to go rechew that old gum. That is the choice of everyone in this thread (including me).

    It's a little misguided, however, to start on the old gum again, and to THEN complain that it's still old gum. There was a chance it might be better, but we already know it's old gum.

    [Dropping the gum analogy for now, cuz it won't carry forward with what I need to say.]

    It's OK to get involved in something that you care about no matter how frustrating it is. It's because you care that you put up with the frustration. But it isn't helpful to complain about the frustration, especially if you really care about the topic, because then it's no longer about the topic, but about the frustration.

    How does this play for me with me as an e9? An average 9 will avoid a problem just for the sake of the frustration of it. Sometimes this is the right thing to do, but it's only randomly right because the reasoning isn't strongly connected to reality. A high-level 9 will spend a lot of effort facing a problem calmly by ignoring the frustration itself. This is almost always a positive behavior, because it allows the 9 to maintain that sense of inner peace while also constructively solving problems as best as possible. At this level, it is always proper to ask whether additional effort is required, or is perhaps the problem unsolvable as is, given current constraints. Bringing in my Ni, it's also useful to ask whether the correct problem is being addressed: is the problem really a problem that needs fixing, or is the problem my compulsion to "fix" it?

    Trust me, I'm always pinging myself with these questions, and yes, at times, I do the average 9 thing (which is why I know I'm a 9 with a 5 fix and not a 5 with a 9 fix - I do the average 9 stuff, not the average 5 stuff). That said, if I'm writing lots of posts in a thread full of drama, I'm most certainly not doing the average 9 bit. If I fall completely silent, I might be doing the average 9 thing (or I may just be busy with something else).
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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