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  1. #541
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    [Posting before having caught up.]

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post

    Now, as to why asking someone else to cop to <whatever> is a source of communications break down, the problem is that it only works if that someone else understands what they did wrong and why it was wrong. Asking someone to cop to what you think they did wrong is unproductive. For one thing, you might be entirely wrong about what they did wrong. I understand that there might be a valuable lesson that you are trying to convey to that other person, but in all likelihood, unless it's a really obvious moral point, the lesson that you learned and think applies to the other person may not actually apply. It's up to the other person to figure out what the problem is.

    That's the only way it works. And yeah, sometimes it takes a really long time for the other person to figure it out - sometimes even never. But when they figure it out, rest assured they'll learn something just as you did from doing the same. It just may not be what you originally thought.


    And what kind of relief, do you imagine, is provided by saying she should cop to having a personal agenda?
    I could be wrong, but I think (for Tilty too) it’s really more about understanding exactly why nerves got poked than it is about getting OA to ‘admit’ anything. When Js feel charged (I’ve noticed this is true regardless of T/F) we get clumsy with language. I really think this (hashing through the carnage) is about creating an understanding/script to have ready ‘for next time’ in order to resolve things faster. And we’re bouncing it off each other for the reality check aspect of it. The thing about “you might be entirely wrong about what they did wrong”- I know personally that’s actually something which completely stymies me in the moment, I always already know that I might be entirely wrong about what *I think* the other person did ‘wrong’. I know it so much that it’s practically paralyzing. The more foreign a conflict is, the less I am able to pinpoint what the problem is- I feel incredibly lucky if I can even get it in the ballpark.

    And actually, it’s kinda funny, this part quoted above actually helps clear up some of the confusion about this thread (and the doorslam thread) because it clears up why this kind of thing sets off so many silent alarms in the first place.

    Per usual- great post, uumlau.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  2. #542
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    And the answer we're getting boils down to "Just ignore it. Who knows what they're talking about."

    That works.

    But I do also like the suggestion to make it a blog post. (Just so that doesn't get lost.)

  3. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    You misunderstand me. Let's say that person A has determined that person B has done something wrong.

    So A's thought consists of three pieces:
    1. B is doing X.
    2. X is wrong.
    3. B is doing something wrong.

    It is wholly possible for statement 1 or 2 or 3 to be true or false in any combination. The particular case I'm thinking about is #3, that it is correct that B is doing something wrong, and B probably needs to apologize for it, but A's analysis (in 1 and 2) is entirely false. Perhaps A is missing information, say as in a silly example, that B is preparing chicken parmesan, not spaghetti, and 1 and 2 are explaining how the spaghetti is being prepared wrong by B. It's entirely possible for A to be correct in the context of spaghetti, but not chicken parmesan. It's also entirely possible for B to be wrong in the context of chicken parmesan (didn't cook the chicken enough, oops!), and that's going to be what B has to apologize for when you get salmonella poisoning, not for making the spaghetti wrong (it tasted quite good, actually).
    again, you and the metaphor seem to be missing what i am saying:
    in what context is person B doing X to person A is wrong? in the realm and experience of person A, where A has being wronged. whether doing X to A is wrong is derived from A's experience of X.

    to apply to the metaphor (and stretch beyond it's usefulness): B's intention of making chicken Parmesan rather then spaghetti bolognese are irrelevant if the reason A objected to spaghetti bolognese are that A is allergic to oregano.

  4. #544
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    "The first time someone calls you a horse you punch him on the nose, the second time someone calls you a horse you call him a jerk but the third time someone calls you a horse, well then perhaps it's time to go shopping for a saddle."

  5. #545
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    again, you and the metaphor seem to be missing what i am saying:
    in what context is person B doing X to person A is wrong? in the realm and experience of person A, where A has being wronged. whether doing X to A is wrong is derived from A's experience of X.

    to apply to the metaphor (and stretch beyond meaning meaningfulness):
    B's intention of making chicken Parmesan rather then spaghetti bolognese are irrelevant if the reason A objected to spaghetti bolognese are that A is allergic to oregano.
    Your point is, I believe, that B is doing something to offend A, and that is manifestly and concretely wrong, and one's inability to acknowledge that wrong is a great personal fault. I don't disagree with that very strongly (it's a very good principle with only a few minor caveats that would distract discussion).

    Where I disagree is that A then proceeds to dispense advice to B, based on the perceived wrong. The advice, on the margins I spoke of in my post above, is very often wrong, and often based on ignorance, and very possibly distracting B from the double-checking the chicken's temperature before serving it, thus indirectly causing even more consternation.

    I'm also arguing this from the perspective of the person giving the advice. It is often more correct and appropriate to bite one's tongue and refrain from giving such advice, especially if the target of the advice is apparently oblivious. Even if the advice is 100% correct, it may well be 100% incorrect to give it.

    My usual pattern in such difficult cases is to bite my tongue, let the person make the mistake and learn, and pick up the pieces afterward, unless the mistake could do significant harm to others. As far as the topic of this thread, none of the INFP or INFJ "wrongs" mentioned in this thread fit into that latter category of significant harm: they fit into the category of personal annoyances, in my estimation.

    When I personally dole out advice, it is usually for the purpose of expanding understanding (e.g., "here's something I see that you may not; you might want to factor it into your decisions"), not for telling them that they're wrong and they need to fess up. There is very little to be gained, and much to be lost by doing so.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  6. #546
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I'm being totally serious, here. That's my advice to the INFJ side. There's nothing to fix, at least not in the direct INFJ way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    And the answer we're getting boils down to "Just ignore it. Who knows what they're talking about."

    That works.

    Okay, so I've got a question about this. This is pretty much the attitude I took after initially reading her posts. But it wasn't going away, in fact she almost seems to slowly be getting more bitter and more bitter and (however inadvertently) she has slowly roped 'us' into it by dropping asides here and there about how we weren't 'copping up'. So....just keep ignoring it? Maybe set the firm boundary that if she is going to imply something aloud about the INFJs here- she needs to be willing to be questioned about it (just because that's the way shared reality works)?

    Using the spaghetti metaphor…..I absolutely agree that it’s best to get out of the kitchen and let someone do their thing. I've spent half my life wishing people would gtfo of the kitchen and let me do my thing. But suppose (as is the case here) there’s reason to believe someone is going to rope you into a mess that only looks like it’s getting worse unattended. Like, suppose there are passive aggressive comments drifting in from the kitchen like "And the INFJs out there aren't doing their part..." .....and those comments are getting a little bit louder and more frequent as time goes on. I have no problem with other people making messes- so long as those messes don’t interfere with my day.

    Maybe it just would have been best if we’d have the foresight to very clearly say “You know, if you’re going to be making comments about the INFJs here, just know it’s going to be questioned.”?




    But I do also like the suggestion to make it a blog post. (Just so that doesn't get lost.)
    Yeah it’s great- but something tells me that’s expecting them to do it *our* way.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  7. #547
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    @Z Buck McFate, the thing about passive aggressive comments being thrown out there, etc. reminds me of the thing with my sis-in-law, where she told people that I was abusing my mom and people believed her. If I tried to defend myself, people thought I was just trying to cover up the abuse. Or they didn't want to hear my side--they thought I should just let it go. I've struggled with this for years now. Although OA's accusations aren't quite in the same league as my sis-in-law's, I think the situations can be compared.

    What have I learned? Sometimes you just have to put up with it, knowing that you can't control what's being said or believed about you. Then, you live your life and treat people in such a way that they will, hopefully, see that you are not what you have been accused of being.

    That doesn't mean that every similar situation has to "just be put up with". I surely tried to tell people that what sis-in-law said wasn't true about me. Some people did believe me, some didn't, some didn't care either way. It means that if you've tried and failed over and over and over, it might be time to consider walking away from it and staying away from it, no matter what is said. And I'm not saying that it won't still sting. I can't completely walk away from sis-in-law, so the things she says will sometimes still rile me up, but then it's best that I vent to my friends and then let it go. It's not fair, but that's what it is. You've seen me struggle with these things in my old blog. I still struggle with them.

    ETA: Sorry for all the additions. I know it messes up the flow of things. But what I also learned from the sis-in-law experience is that most people really don't give a crap if my feelings were hurt or my reputation sullied. They weren't directly involved--none of it matters to them. They would prefer that I just shut up and go away or talk about something that they are interested in instead. What is a big deal to me, is nothing to them. Again, not fair, but after trying and trying, the best choice for me was to let it go.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  8. #548
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Yes. I've just given up hoping that someone might also think it's wishing them to do it effectively and god forbid appropriately.
    (Sorry. I know "appropriately" is something of a trigger.)
    I don't know, maybe it's because I have a domineering Fe dom mother- I don't even have an urge for others to 'do it effectively' where the outcome has no bearing on me. I really can't stand people getting in my face and telling me to do something differently unless there's some very real consequences for them in me not doing so- so I'm already rather adamant about being this way myself. It even got my dander up a little bit (lol) reading that initial 'spaghetti' post because....who cares if they're not willing to call it spaghetti? The only time it bothers me is when not doing so leaves consequences for me to deal with.


    Well, they do and they don't. If someone annoys you once or twice, fine. If someone annoys you continually, the annoyance escalates and you have to say something. If you have said several times, "Gosh, that's annoying. Could you do that someplace else?" and the response you get is "Live with it. I can annoy you if I feel like it," then that is infuriating. If the response you get is, "You're annoyed because you're in deep-seated denial and you have problems you don't even realize you have," then it leads to soul-searching and time spent carefully examining this idea, and doing a moral inventory, and reality checking with others to see if you can find evidence on either side to help you get a handle on the idea, etc. etc. -- in short, massive effort. In INFJ world, if a problem is big enough to merit even comment, it's big. If a problem is big enough for a diatribe and for not backing down, it's massive. So I think this is beyond "annoyance" and has progressed into grievance.
    Bingo! That's it! It's progressed from little asides to something more mindfucking (and potentially really toxic). So the urge to get to the center of what's causing it has spiked.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  9. #549
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Yes. I've just given up hoping that someone might also think it's wishing them to do it effectively and god forbid appropriately.
    (Sorry. I know "appropriately" is something of a trigger.)

    @uumlau
    You said, "As far as the topic of this thread, none of the INFP or INFJ "wrongs" mentioned in this thread fit into that latter category of significant harm: they fit into the category of personal annoyances, in my estimation."

    Well, they do and they don't. If someone annoys you once or twice, fine. If someone annoys you continually, the annoyance escalates and you have to say something. If you have said several times, "Gosh, that's annoying. Could you do that someplace else?" and the response you get is "Live with it. I can annoy you if I feel like it," then that is infuriating.
    It is momentarily, but then I guess my 9 takes over and I realize, "Yeah, you can, so have at it," and just go about my way, or try to engage again later.

    If the response you get is, "You're annoyed because you're in deep-seated denial and you have problems you don't even realize you have," then it leads to soul-searching and time spent carefully examining this idea, and doing a moral inventory, and reality checking with others to see if you can find evidence on either side to help you get a handle on the idea, etc. etc. -- in short, massive effort. In INFJ world, if a problem is big enough to merit even comment, it's big. If a problem is big enough for a diatribe and for not backing down, it's massive. So I think this is beyond "annoyance" and has progressed into grievance.

    Hmm, this isn't me. I won't go through all that when others analyze me. This sounds Fi. For me, I'd just try to listen and contemplate if they have a point that is valid and try to accommodate it or address it. I don't turn it all inward and engage the Ni/Ti churnings for that. It's more likely to ping right off me.

    In short, I'm not likely to do all that unless I am internally off balance. Not if someone tells me they think I'm off balance. Does this make sense? I'm too stable for others to affect me that much.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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  10. #550
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Yeah ok.

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