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  1. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i don't know if anyone else noticed, but @OrangeAppled hasn't actually posted here in over a week. others have being trying to clarify how they interpret what she said, but she hasn't actually being here for awhile, axe or no axe.

    perhaps to some extent because people keep shortening her nickname when referring to her, making the act of mentioning a bit more deliberate then simply adding a "@", and making the act of site-googling when she is referred to a bit much... two-word nicknames will do that to you.
    I think she was just being sensible. This thread has grown out of control and some of the posters are nearing fanaticism and hysteria (I think I'm getting there too!) I can't speak for other INFPs or OrangeAppled's reasons but I personally would quickly get sick of having to explain my point over and over and continuously have to respond to posters especially if I feel everything's already been said. This thread has been ongoing continuously with rehashing the norm of the day and there is seemingly no light at the end of the tunnel. How long do you wait after becoming fed up before moving on to new pastures, especially when the Fi no longer values this and there are other things to do with your time? If they were her reasons then I commend her for it. She pursued the only option she could under the circumstances you people forced on her. But her reasons are her own, I can only speculate but that's what I would have been thinking if I had been in the same position.

    I dare not read all this thread in case my eyes go square and my brain pops out so I'm in no position to say but I think the first issue was when they essentially made this an ad hominem argument rather than strictly sticking to the addressing of the points that were mentioned. If I made a list of statements I would not necessarily want my motives for stating them questioned or myself "reasoned" with for doing so. That is a pet peeve of mine: Fe attempting to reason with facets of Fi it seemingly cannot comprehend. If that happened to me I would feel nervous about posting because it would be a detraction against me and a derailment from the discussion I wanted to have. I would eventually feel very uncomfortable and leave the forum for months and hope the thread has died down before I could feel comfortable posting and showing my face again. Such a deviation from formal logic in my opinion, especially when its something many of your number apparently pride themselves on. Heh, so much for INFJs and Ti eh?

    I personally ask that you guys leave OrangeAppled alone. Perhaps that's what she wants, perhaps not as her mind is her own. Stick to addressing the points raised, finding evidence to support or debunk them accordingly. Stop treating her like she was wrong to do what she did. Leave her be as you guys could fall into the realms of bullying.

  2. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    I think she was just being sensible. This thread has grown out of control and some of the posters are nearing fanaticism and hysteria (I think I'm getting there too!) I can't speak for other INFPs or OrangeAppled's reasons but I personally would quickly get sick of having to explain my point over and over and continuously have to respond to posters especially if I feel everything's already been said. This thread has been ongoing continuously with rehashing the norm of the day and there is seemingly no light at the end of the tunnel. How long do you wait after becoming fed up before moving on to new pastures, especially when the Fi no longer values this and there are other things to do with your time? If they were her reasons then I commend her for it. She pursued the only option she could under the circumstances you people forced on her. But her reasons are her own, I can only speculate but that's what I would have been thinking if I had been in the same position.

    I dare not read all this thread in case my eyes go square and my brain pops out so I'm in no position to say but I think the first issue was when they essentially made this an ad hominem argument rather than strictly sticking to the addressing of the points that were mentioned. If I made a list of statements I would not necessarily want my motives for stating them questioned or myself "reasoned" with for doing so. That is a pet peeve of mine: Fe attempting to reason with facets of Fi it seemingly cannot comprehend. If that happened to me I would feel nervous about posting because it would be a detraction against me and a derailment from the discussion I wanted to have. I would eventually feel very uncomfortable and leave the forum for months and hope the thread has died down before I could feel comfortable posting and showing my face again. Such a deviation from formal logic in my opinion, especially when its something many of your number apparently pride themselves on. Heh, so much for INFJs and Ti eh?

    I personally ask that you guys leave OrangeAppled alone. Perhaps that's what she wants, perhaps not as her mind is her own. Stick to addressing the points raised, finding evidence to support or debunk them accordingly. Stop treating her like she was wrong to do what she did. Leave her be as you guys could fall into the realms of bullying.
    I totally agree with this. I also ask that OrangeAppled be left alone. In my opinion, if this thread continues with the same tone, it will be nothing but harassment. I suspect she has better things to do than to come here and be insulted further. I can't speak for her, but I agree with Standuble that if I were in the same position, I'd probably wait months before returning (if at all.)

  3. #513
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    This is not the purpose of the discussion, though.
    It is, though it's a meta-purpose, not the explicit purpose.

    The purpose of the discussion is to point out exactly where the communications break down.
    OK, let's stipulate that.

    It would be great if OA could cop to having a personal agenda.
    ^^^ This is the source of the communications break down. (Well, the INFJ half, anyway. The INFP half is keeping the discussion at a fairly raw level - I like the "batter" analogy - because it's how they keep things honest. Other Fi types need that "raw" information in order to do the Fi thing of putting themselves subjectively in the other person's shoes. Problem is that INFJs react to that kind of "raw" information badly, just as INFPs react badly to the "fully-baked" statements of the INFJs, because the INFJs baked the wrong cake, from their perspective.)

    I have copped to several things for the sake of appeasement and learned about one thing I hadn't even known existed and done a good bit of reflection to see if I do it, thought about why someone might do it, etc. Not so much about blame as about responsibility --i.e., yes, I do bring this up with the intention of healing a personal matter that won't leave me alone -- it doesn't have to do with INFJs as a whole, but actually has to do with a personal matter that won't leave me alone -- sorry if I have caused strife in this way. I wasn't fully aware that I was doing this, but now that you've pointed it out, I see it and I cop to it. Kind of thing.
    Yes, this is a good thing.

    Now, as to why asking someone else to cop to <whatever> is a source of communications break down, the problem is that it only works if that someone else understands what they did wrong and why it was wrong. Asking someone to cop to what you think they did wrong is unproductive. For one thing, you might be entirely wrong about what they did wrong. I understand that there might be a valuable lesson that you are trying to convey to that other person, but in all likelihood, unless it's a really obvious moral point, the lesson that you learned and think applies to the other person may not actually apply. It's up to the other person to figure out what the problem is.

    That's the only way it works. And yeah, sometimes it takes a really long time for the other person to figure it out - sometimes even never. But when they figure it out, rest assured they'll learn something just as you did from doing the same. It just may not be what you originally thought.

    skylights -- what I'm hearing is that INFJs have reached out, and it hasn't made any difference, that for some reason OA keeps bringing her same axe to grind, such that as soon as INFJs see her coming, they know what the deal is -- they will be accused of certain things, and nothing anyone says will give her any relief, or no matter what they admit to or apologize for, it won't be enough. "Omg, please, not this again."
    And what kind of relief, do you imagine, is provided by saying she should cop to having a personal agenda?

    I mean, I'm an INTJ and I know better than to try and "solve" a person's problems by actually offering "solutions," when they really only want me to listen. There is a time for offering solutions (and offering them gently), after listening. I suspect INFJs tend to skip to the solutions part before the INFPs are ready.

    I agree with the "omg" bit: it often seems to me that not only do people enter these threads with a chip on the shoulder, it's not merely a chip, but a 6 foot long 2x4, and they end up whacking each other upside the head as they turn to respond to each others' remarks.

    INFJs, I believe, want her to deal with her stuff for once and for all and get over it, maybe. That's my take. Rather than continue to drag it into discussions that could otherwise be productive, are properly introduced as topics, and have other people wanting or willing to participate who don't have a personal agenda and can discuss without heat or accusation.
    Yep, and this is why these threads blow up. Note how that INFJ desire to say "get over it" to an INFP is kind of like going up to a beggar and saying "get a job." Yeah, that'd solve the problem, in theory, but it isn't that easy, and it's pretty sure to start a fight.

    (As if! :-) ) but that's I believe what the issue is -- that someone keeps hauling in the Trojan horse under someone else's banner, and throwing a stick in the spokes, because they are not dealing with their issues but somehow expect other people to fix it, when other people have tried and are now tired of trying.
    So stop trying to "fix it."

    I'm being totally serious, here. That's my advice to the INFJ side. There's nothing to fix, at least not in the direct INFJ way.

    Fi is very non-mechanical in its workings. My sig is an Fi analogy: Fi is the cat. The analogy can be extended: cats are not dogs. You can command a dog in a way that you simply cannot command a cat. To get along with a cat, you just sit there and let the cat approach you, and gradually let the cat get comfortable with you. The dog doesn't need time to get comfortable with you, it will bound up to you barking and aggressively jump up on you and sniff you out. You don't treat a cat like a dog - the cat wants gentle petting and cuddles, but the dog enjoys rougher petting and direct play. If the dog does something it knows is wrong, it immediately acts contrite - to the point it starts apologizing the moment you walk in the door, and you realize you need to start looking for what the dog did wrong. If the cat does something it knows is wrong, it will spend barely a moment looking uncomfortable and continue on as if nothing at all ever happened. The dog will just come up and lick your face because you're there. The cat will scratch you just because you got in its personal space before it was ready to acknowledge you.





    Sorry for the mixed metaphors and I could be wrong, but that seems to me where we're at, so to speak.
    Hey, I pay mixed metaphors in kind, as you can see.

    P.S. Who you callin' a punk?
    Not you, for sure. I appreciate your honesty.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  4. #514
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Well, if someone was using OA's approach it wouldn't bother me at all, since I can appreciate what they are looking for, what they need.

    If it was an INFJ coming into threads and repeatedly using their attack mode on me personally, it would be more challenging.
    I was trying to say what @PeaceBaby said in the quote above, but I was saying it badly (with my examples about my post about the Snowflake crown and the Israeli thing with @Southern Kross). INFJs were saying that they felt attacked and INFPs didn't seem to be hearing that (because, to INFPs, that wasn't their attack mode). I was trying, poorly, to show that it can blow up both ways because INFPs can feel attacked by stuff that isn't what we consider to be our attack mode. It was an attempt to show that both sides have their blind spots so we both need to be a little more thoughtful rather than reactive.

    I also want to clarify that my communication suggestions were up for debate and not "this is what we must do to communicate". Also, I'm not trying to force my way of communication on anybody, because that wasn't the way I would naturally communicate, either. Since we all seem to be going round and round with the same arguments, I thought that making both side's communication simpler might help make some headway. I also thought that acknowledging that we hurt each other's feelings might help make some headway. I could be very wrong.

    I agree with something that PeaceBaby said as an aside in one of her posts--that INFJs don't always have good boundaries. And that ties in to what @uumlau just said above, that INFJs should stop trying to "fix it". I know that I feel compelled to FIX what I see as problems, especially in the area of relationships between people. In the process, I tend to lower or flex my boundaries and then I feel hurt. What I've learned, to some extent (because if I had learned it well, I probably wouldn't have posted in this thread at all), is that sometimes it's best to stay out of it, even when someone is asking for my input. It may not be my place to fix it, I might not be seeing the correct problem to fix, I might not have the tools to fix it, I might not have all the information and I'm coming to incorrect conclusions because of that, etc. If I've tried to fix it and it doesn't seem to be getting fixed, sometimes the best thing is for me to walk away because I might be making it worse, rather than better. It's not always my duty to stay to the bitter end and FIX it. That's where the boundaries come in. If someone asks me to be vulnerable in a certain way, and I'm uncomfortable being vulnerable in that way, then, no matter what that person says or what buttons they push, I should decide for myself whether to stand firm with my boundary, or if I'm willing to flex just a bit. I should not let myself be talked into it for the sake of learning or helping or because of my own compulsion to fix it. Some people walked away when they felt their boundaries being violated, others flexed too much and got really hurt and felt manipulated, some stayed but didn't participate in the areas in which they felt uncomfortable participating. We have to take some responsibility for our choices, too. That doesn't mean that the other party isn't responsible at all, but that we do have some choice in the matter, too.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  5. #515
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    @Tiltyred: good synopsis. It reads just like INTJ and INTP complaints about each other, from the INTJ side.

    So extending the INTP/INTJ analogy, the INFP retort will be:

    "I was trying to figure out whether I'd make spaghetti with marinara sauce or chicken parmesan or pasta with pesto. But no, you have to assume spaghetti because all you can see is the noodles and the tomato sauce, which I may or may not use."

    My advice is to let them be themselves. It's amazing how likeable people can be when you decide that you won't let their quirks annoy you. Yeah, I know, this is e9 advice, which doesn't work for everyone.

    And there's something to be learned from Mark Twain: "When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished by how much he'd learned in seven years." We don't always know what we think we know. Sometimes it's US that needs the time to understand the other person, that the problem isn't always that the other person doesn't understand us. Humility in this regard works in both directions, for all types, of all ages.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  6. #516
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    To use your analogy, @Tiltyred, I think what @uumlau might be trying to point out is that, perhaps, instead of the INFJ insisting that it's called spaghetti when the INFP is saying that it isn't, the INFJ should get out of the kitchen until the INFP finds that magazine and comes to the conclusion that it's maybe mostly spaghetti, and then maybe both the INFJ and the INFP can have a nice meal together.

    And, I think, he's also trying to point out that, even though the INFJ sees all the ingredients for spaghetti, there's the possibility that the INFP is making some foreign dish that the INFJ has never heard of, that happens to use all the ingredients of spaghetti, plus maybe some ingredients that haven't been taken out of the refrigerator or cupboard yet. The unseen ingredients might make this a different dish.


    ETA: @uumlau beat me to a response. And sorry for talking for you, uumlau.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  7. #517
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I totally see this and agree that it's probably the best course.
    I'm just saying, it's not unreasonable for the INFJ to at least point to the magazine wrack after repeated spaghetti incidences, where what could be any sort of a dish with noodles and sauce repeatedly comes to the table looking and tasting like spaghetti.
    Yeah, and that's a quirk that the INFP will have to tolerate from you.

    There is a similar interplay between myself and my ENFP gf, where we each let each other be ourselves, which includes the occasional snarky remarks along these lines (that aren't intended to be hurtful).
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #518
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    @uumlau is just too fast for me.

    @Tiltyred, believe me, it's not that I don't know how frustrating it is to have my POV not even acknowledged or considered, especially if it turns out to be spaghetti all along. And I'm not saying that the INFJ can't ever say that it sure looks like spaghetti to me. But another point I got from uumlau's post is, how important is it, really, that the INFP admits that it's spaghetti, in the big scheme of things? Now, maybe if we were talking nuclear weapons, it might be important. So, we have to decide what our priorities are in each situation. Is it worth a big, on-going argument to have it proven to be spaghetti? Maybe for some it is, but the question needs to be considered--by both sides. When does it become so detrimental to everyone involved that it just needs to be let go and walked away from?

    And, yes, it would be nice to hear that sometimes that INFJ seems to know her cooking, so maybe it is just spaghetti after all. Also, I would guess that the INFP would like to hear that she seems to cook a good dish, whatever it turns out to be called.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  9. #519

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    I have seen several members in this discussion over the previous years and months repeatedly reinsert themselves into discussions regarding INFJs --a type they have publicly admitted to having personal issues with. These repeated reinsertions look less and less like attempts to "understand better" and more and more like opportunities to wax righteously.

    What a waste and a bore.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  10. #520
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    The latest spaghetti post made me laugh!

    Well, if you live with an unreasonable INFP who keeps messing up the kitchen and won't clean up after herself, what choices do you have? If you've tried and tried to get her to see reason and you still end up bathed in sauce, then maybe it's just time to leave the relationship completely. If your point isn't being heard and you never get hamburger, then why keep beating yourself up and getting all stressed out? I don't believe it's possible to force someone to act the way we want them to, so it seems to me that it's become an exercise in futility. In that case, you either live with it, find a different way to approach it, or you leave. (I don't see any other options, but that doesn't mean that there aren't any, so, if there are other options, let me know.) If you're not married/committed to the INFP and have no obligations to stay, why stay? Find INFPs who don't mess up the kitchen or who at least clean up after themselves.

    And I know that we're kind of stuck here in our little spaceship of a forum, where it's difficult to completely avoid anyone who gets on your nerves, so the aggravation keeps resurfacing. I'm not ignoring or denying that at all. I have a very difficult time ignoring the threads or posts that push my buttons or hit me where I live. I feel the need to defend myself when I feel attacked. But sometimes the best way to defend yourself is to ignore the attack. In your (Tilty) first post in this thread you told INFJs to just stay out of the thread, stop participating in it, and I think that was good advice at that point in time. Even if others call it running away, or in denial, or cowardly, or whatever, because they want to keep engaging, there comes a time to stick to your own boundaries and walk away if it's that contentious. Then you just have to hope that there are people who will see, from your actions, that you do bathe regularly.

    ETA: To address your latest point: As far as I know we can only ask that the issue not come up again, but we can't stop someone from posting unless they break the rules. So we have to learn to live with that if they refuse to do what we ask.

    ETA2: I am in no way calling OA, or any particular INFP, unreasonable, since I can see how that could be assumed from the use of the illustration above. This is why I don't like to generalize, because it lends itself to misinterpretation. Unfortunately, generalizing is sometimes necessary.

    I can only hope that no INFPs or INFJs were injured during this exchange. <------humor
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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