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  1. #501
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    But I certainly do not believe she is 'bouncing half-baked ideas off people in order to receive feedback and subsequently sharpen her own perspective/understanding.' I believe she's quite confident in her assertions...and is highlighting a different part of our story...the chapter on how we...when we just know we are *right* and are determined to correct this error in everyone else's mind...we'll repeat ourselves over and over again until we feel heard. Which frankly I don't have a problem with this. I just feel uncomfortable when NFPs are attempting to say this is the 'raw batter phase'. I don't get the sense she believes all INFJs suck. But I feel they are probably 'guilty' until they prove themselves innocent in her mind. And yah...that's about it. It's cake.
    I've gone back and re-read the first 320 posts in this thread, up until OA's exit.

    1: There's some great stuff I didn't acknowledge at the time; it's so hard to keep up with the sheer volume of info in these posts, and then someone else will reply to that person and I'll just figure it's addressed for expediency's sake. Plus, it's easier to connect the dots in retrospect. I wish I had answered a few more of @fidelia 's questions myself along the way and acknowledged her contributions, and what she was trying to do. And thought more on @the state i am in 's posts ... and answered a little more for @fia. And @Z Buck McFate too ... too much to digest!

    2: Do I think OA appears decided on her opinion and is just trying to shove it down everyone's throats? In some posts yes, sometimes no. Is it possible she sees INFJ's as "guilty" until proven "innocent"? Yes.

    However, what I can say with about 95% certainty is that she wouldn't be in here discussing anything if it was already "cake" or some sort of finished product. It might even be in the oven, but it's not cake yet. If it was me in here posting OA's posts, it would be because I wouldn't want to come to the conclusion I'm close to making. I'd want something that restores my faith in what I used to believe. I really don't see it as something with a sinister agenda, anything vindictive.

    But, I could be naive or not seeing it or just plain incorrect. I can't claim to know for sure.


    -----


    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I actually considered whether or not to use this (what I think Starry is talking about) as an example- because it’s something that’s happened in this thread- but yeah. An example of ‘raw batter’ might be the way I’ve seen NFPs bring up the argument “Well….the op DOES ask for INFPs to give their opinion” (mostly it was in OA’s defense). I don’t know how to explain why, but it’s one of the things that has made me think “Really? It isn’t obvious why that doesn’t work here?”

    I’m still having trouble articulating why it’s an example- and really my priority is on answering SK’s post- I’m only posting quickly to say Starry isn’t imagining this. (And honestly, out of curiosity, I’d be interested in hearing how many other FJs kind felt a little bit every time someone brought it up…..because I know I did, and this isn’t something I’ve shared with Starry so I’m a bit relieved even to see I’m not alone in it. eta: seriously though- even if through rep where it won't kick up more dust- let me know because I really am curious how many other FJs felt a tiny bit of annoyance over this being brought up again and again...)
    @bold: Well, most of us will never tell you anything negative if you don't invite us to, because we don't want any hurt feelings. It would breech personal values of a sort, sort of the INFP code I guess? So, if you eye-rolled on it, it does make me feel sad you see that as something disingenuous. We really see it as permission to engage at a deeper level with less protocol.

    I have mentioned a couple of times that I wish the thread had been split off, because there really *should* be a thread for INFPs to give feedback about INFJs. This stopped being *that thead* quite a while ago.
    Ya, this one took quite a strange turn.

    Something I wanted to point out about 'cake' is that it isn't finished product. My point in the analogy is just that it's been 'cooked'- but it can still very much be far from 'done'. And I think Starry is trying to point out that it doesn't seem like OA is shooting from the hip with this stuff- it's stuff that's been stewing for quite a while (and she's erected whole Lego cities around it).
    Why is that a problem though, assuming it's true? Aside from what's already been discussed? (Venting mixed with theory mixed with personal stuff etc. and "alarm bells"...) You suspect some other agenda? I think it has been stewing for while, no? But I think it has more to do with IRL stuff than forum stuff ... does that make it different somehow? I'm losing the significance of this ...


    -----


    At any rate, and this is not directed to you personally Z, but I am getting increasingly uncomfortable that this has been turning to what looks like a witch hunt, vilifying @OrangeAppled when she has pronounced positive intention more than once, and she stated was biased and venting more than once. I didn't see much in my re-read that didn't register on the ranting/venting <----> pondering/theorizing scale. I don't even think she was trolling.

    If it's offensive because she sounds decided but you think she's pretending to still be open, I guess I don't see it. And I suppose I am basing that on previous interactions as well, that although she can be "prickly", OA does contribute a great deal of value to many other discussions. I admire her intelligence, tenacity and input.

    I think she is sincere in this thread. But clearly, there's more here you want to explore that is itchy for you. I guess we'll see what the rash is caused by ...
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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  2. #502
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Taking the eye off of OA for a moment, I would like to point out that, as an INTJ, I'm totally aware that it's possible for someone to both
    1. Be an insulting jerk, and
    2. Genuinely be looking for productive answers to perhaps ill-formed questions, such that
    3. One can learn from one's misconceptions.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  3. #503
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Southern Kross, you explained it very well. Thank you for taking the time to do that. It definitely makes sense. It seems then that the situation I do not handle well / know how to deal with is when an Ne user has become entrenched in a particular Si data-set, and then stays entrenched in that for years (btw, this statement isn't directed towards people in this thread , I'm actually recalling a few Ne users from my past).

    Something for me to think about. You present some good suggestions, so thank you.
    Oh, it's always difficult to deal with that. In the INXP's case that's the Fi-Si loop. I don't know if I could offer advice on that, because it's like telling people how to get me to overcome my own blind spot. All I know is that the way out of it is to somehow get Ne into gear again. It's a sad thing to see a INXP without their Ne engaged. We live through our perception of possibilities and to lose that, is to lose our ability to dream outside our own experience - it's like we've effectively created a cage for our minds.

    Edit: Also, it's curious... I think I tend to 'just listen', as I want to be supportive and figure they'll eventually figure it out/shift on their own, plus I don't want to push myself onto them or project myself onto them. But in a sense I'm still projecting, since I'm under the assumption they'll figure it out internally over time, and shift on their own. Because that's what I tend to do. So it hasn't occurred to me that they might actually want me to challenge their ideas or present alternatives. So by the time a long span of time has passed, I'm tired of hearing them in the same place, with the same vexations, so I check out.
    I see. It's like what I said about the Ni desire/need to accept ideas (and to have others accept their ideas). Fi is the same with Feelings. It's hard though, isn't it? - when your natural way to support people, isn't always the kind of support they need.

    Being Introverted, INFPs do often try to figure it out on their own. And the usual way we acquire Si data isn't through asking for it - we just absorb it from what we see around us. It's often only when we can't Ne ourselves out of the narrow box we've ended up in, that we ask for help. In OA's case she might feel that Fi-Si loop coming on and she's trying to re-engage her Ne.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  4. #504
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    However, what I can say with about 95% certainty is that she wouldn't be in here discussing anything if it was already "cake" or some sort of finished product. It might even be in the oven, but it's not cake yet. If it was me in here posting OA's posts, it would be because I wouldn't want to come to the conclusion I'm close to making. I'd want something that restores my faith in what I used to believe. I really don't see it as something with a sinister agenda, anything vindictive.

    But, I could be naive or not seeing it or just plain incorrect. I can't claim to know for sure.
    I totally understand you were not necessarily speaking directly to me...but I just want to make it clear so there is no misunderstanding... I do not have any problem with OA whatsoever. Certainly don't think she is sinister or vindictive. I've enjoyed her on the site. I just think it sends a conflicting/confusing message when you or SK or anyone says she is making a good-faith effort to reach-out to INFJs in order to better understand them. What I have seen for nearly 3 years now is INFJs responding to her message (this same message)...having their responses rejected...and then a few months later rinse and repeat. How long should this process continue? I'm seriously asking. Because the way she phrases things is hurtful and painful to read (yes, I went quote collecting). And if she is still 'cooking' things like you suspect...how much longer do you think this process will continue? How much longer should it be allowed to continue with not even a hint of change on her end? I'd also be interested in knowing how you would feel if there was an INFJ doing this same thing to INFPs for over 3 years. Perhaps it wouldn't bother the INFPs (the ENFPs probably wouldn't even notice)...but how would that make you feel?

  5. #505
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Preface: I've edited this like 8 times. Sorry guys, the ideas, they keep evolving.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    OMG haHA! Okay this is making me laugh...and seeing it in 'quoted-signature form' helps me understand your response (although I honestly wasn't attempting to bait you in any way - I was speaking from a place of total honesty.)

    What's weird is that I'm unwittingly proving my own point in this thread. If the reaction in this thread was truly about 'abrasive' or 'thoughtless manner' (or criticism) then I'd be on every single INFJs ignore list because it doesn't get much more 'raw batter-ish' than me. I have said all kinds of 'half-baked' things in these threads yet have always been met with compassion, explanation - not resistance. Isn't there a clue in there somewhere? I feel the NFPs in this thread have attached to a story...and just keep retelling it over and over again as if this process will somehow make it true. What I'm saying is that I know this story very well...I just don't understand the continued attachment to it when there is a clear deviation in the storyline in this instance. Is it laziness? Is it that you all feel all bridges will be torn away if we acknowledge that one of them isn't safe to cross? I don't get it. But if you all want to keep saying that OA is presenting raw batter instead of cake...then have at it. But it doesn't change the fact that OA is serving-up cake. With frosting even.
    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    You are telling the 'NFP story' and doing an amazing job of it. It is merely that you are using an irl example that is actually in conflict with the chapters you are currently highlighting and I feel this causes a great deal of confusion for those that are sincerely attempting to understand.



    I don't know what OAs motivations are (or what she's serving up.) But I certainly do not believe she is 'bouncing half-baked ideas off people in order to receive feedback and subsequently sharpen her own perspective/understanding.' I believe she's quite confident in her assertions...and is highlighting a different part of our story...the chapter on how we...when we just know we are *right* and are determined to correct this error in everyone else's mind...we'll repeat ourselves over and over again until we feel heard. Which frankly I don't have a problem with this. I just feel uncomfortable when NFPs are attempting to say this is the 'raw batter phase'. I don't get the sense she believes all INFJs suck. But I feel they are probably 'guilty' until they prove themselves innocent in her mind. And yah...that's about it. It's cake.


    I don't really disagree with you.

    My conception of the "NFP story" is this: OA answered the prompt; she was making a contribution within fair bounds of the posed request. No, it wasn't friendly, and yes, the tone was kind of self-serving, but she did provide genuine information to work with, and that information was never addressed in the way the original premise of the thread suggested it would be. It was startling and somewhat ironic that the conversation turned almost immediately into what was fair or not fair to blame INFJs for, instead of what INFJs do that drives INFPs crazy. So, IMO, the "NFP story" is simply that the original premise had been departed from completely as of OA's list.

    It almost seems like that post created a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. It was clearly the point where a major disconnect occurred, like some weird kind of stalemate where INFJs wouldn't touch her ideas because they're presented in too offensive a format, but all it would take for her format to become less offensive would be someone touching those ideas - all that's needed is just one INFJ to shatter the dystopian paradigm.

    It reminds me of something a Fe user explained once (sorry, I can't remember who!) about needing a "safe space" for exchange of personal information - how harmony was a prerequisite to sharing, not an assumed point of conclusion. Perhaps the stalemate occurred because the FJ safe sharing space was immediately shut down by that threat of attack - but it's unfortunate because what OA needed to reestablish harmony was for an FJ to reach out.

  6. #506
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    ... the juice ain't worth the squeezin' ...

    but if you're gonna be an insulting jerk with misconceptions, at least cop to it, I believe is the complaint. Meanwhile I think the questions were answered about as well as anyone could possibly expect. Certainly there is evidence of sincere and diligent effort.
    My point is that "copping to it" isn't exactly an option. For the most part, neither "side" (and I suspect there are more than two sides to this discussion) is trying to be deliberately provocative. Just as much the INFJs don't want to admit "regret" when there is nothing causal to regret, neither do the NFPs want to admit that they're trying to ruffle NFJ feathers, either.

    It reminds me of the stereotypical punks that want "respect", and they'll "respect" you only if you "respect" them first. That just ain't how it works. Those who go through life being respectful of others will by and large be respected. In other words, one shouldn't demand any sort of capitulation on the part of others in order to require one's own admissions/capitulations, but rather one should simply forgive any perceived insults and continue forward with productive discussion.

    It's amazing how much productive things can be achieved once people stop worrying about whose fault it was that some things went wrong along the way. It's kind of a corollary to Reagan's, "There is no limit to what you can accomplish if you don't care who gets the credit."
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #507
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post

    @bold: Well, most of us will never tell you anything negative if you don't invite us to, because we don't want any hurt feelings. It would breech personal values of a sort, sort of the INFP code I guess? So, if you eye-rolled on it, it does make me feel sad you see that as something disingenuous. We really see it as permission to engage at a deeper level with less protocol.
    I don’t understand how this applies to what I wrote, which makes me think maybe you misinterpreted it. I was asking if any other FJs also had the same reaction to the way people kept bringing up “Well, it *is* a thread asking INFPs for their opinion.” Once the thread turned into something else, it turned into something else and it seemed like a moot point to me (aka: ‘raw batter’).

    Maybe a better way of saying ‘raw batter’ is this: it’s the difference between going shopping and (1) grabbing absolutely everything that looks ‘cool’ to try on in fitting room (2) or making sure that everything which initially looks really cool is in the ballpark of the correct size and/or price range before bringing it to the fitting room. It seems like Pe’ers have a hard time figuring that stuff out BEFORE they bring it into the actual fitting room….like they won’t figure out that size 2 bikini isn’t going to fit on a size 12 frame until they get in there with it. But Pi’ers have a very strict “only 2 items in fitting room at a time” limit (‘fitting room’= working something out aloud, externally), and so we are constantly always already scanning for cues that something isn’t going to work- so we see a size 2 bikini and instantly see that it won’t work.

    And just because Pi’ers are ‘presenting’ it doesn’t mean that it is ‘finished conclusion’….it just means “this is as finished as I can get something on my own.” We could grab the size 12 bikini to try and find it doesn’t work either….the whole point here is that we do more of this work internally so that there’s less dragging things back and forth out of the dressing room and back to the rack <- that is EXHAUSTING to us (least Se), we try to cut as much of that extra work off at the pass as possible by checking our internal framework (“okay wait, this won’t work because I’m not size 2”) and it’s hard to understand when other types don’t do this as well. Imagine being the person who has to put stuff back- and someone walks up to the dressing room with a size 2 dress and a size 16 pair of pants when they ‘seem’ around a size 8. It’s like, “Really? Seriously? You’re making this extra work for me because you really can’t already tell why this isn’t going to work?”

    I suspect it’s very much like that to deal with Pi’ers when they can’t take in all the immediate judgment- like “Really? Seriously? You can’t see why what I’m saying works better?” <- Even I get to feeling like that with really heavy J types.


    And to the rest of your post: there is a big difference between doubting someone’s sincerity/motivations and doubting something *is* what someone is saying it is. If it’s about a person’s feelings- then yes, content should be treated like it is what they’re saying it is. But that’s precisely why that shouldn’t be mixed with supposedly ‘objective’ theory. There is a huge difference (at least in my mind) between doubting someone’s sincerity and simply doubting what they’re saying (not about their intentions…but about the ‘theory’ they are presenting) is the Truth.

    We’re saying there are traps in what OA has presented: we’re not implying there’s anything intentional about them, we’re simply trying to point out they’re there. It seemed like her reaction to this was to say “I’ve stated what my intentions are, it was not my intention to trap you…..therefore if you say there are traps, you are questioning my sincerity.” That in itself is a trap; it’s built on the premise that ‘traps’ can only exist if they are intentional- which isn’t the case. I have explicitly stated I don’t doubt her sincerity and that I don’t think she’s doing it on purpose, and this whole stupid thing originates on premises built on not understanding the other types’ priorities (and a huge problem, specifically with OA, is that she seems to have built a very elaborate ‘understanding’ which doesn’t look like understanding at all from our pov…..and we’re damned if we do/damned if we don’t by a lot of things in her approach). Yet it keeps coming back to “It looks like you’re questioning her sincerity, because she says there are not traps there and you don’t believe her.” I don’t even know what to do with that because it seems to me to so clearly fold in on itself, I don’t understand what isn’t ‘clear’ about this.

    I do think there’s more ‘personal agenda’ in what OA is posting than she’s putting forth; but that is NOT the same thing as saying I believe there’s anything intentional, malevolent, sneaky or otherwise genuinely questionable in character about her, it is not asserting that she is “pretending” anything. ‘Personal agenda’ = ‘needing to hear something to heal a personal wound’. There’s some serious misfiring here that’s going off in this regard.

    I kinda feel like I’m being blasted with more Ne here (there are too many tangents, not enough anchors). All I wanted to do with this morning’s comments was to say “Starry is not imagining this.” Before responding to anything else, I’m going to get back to Southern Kross’s post.

    I do want to ask though, SK, specifically which parenthetical phrase you are referring to with this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Could you elaborate on what you said in brackets? It sounds like a pretty interesting insight but it's not something I've heard before. I don't think it deserves to be glossed over.
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  8. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quay View Post


    You probably did not intend for this to be funny but still.

    I often find myself thinking, "Am I speaking English?"

    But it's xNFPs in general I have this issue with, and I love em to death, my favorite people in the world, but the disconnect seems to be so serious that they're in one dimension and I'm in another galaxy. Lovely...
    Thanks. I would gladly respond to that. However, if I said I meant for it to be funny, that would be interpreted to mean I didn't mean for it to be funny. If I said I didn't mean for it to be funny, that would be interpreted to mean I did intend for it to be funny. That's kind of how this thread flows now. But if you got it (and it looks like you did,) at least I did get through to one person.

  9. #509
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I just think it sends a conflicting/confusing message when you or SK or anyone says she is making a good-faith effort to reach-out to INFJs in order to better understand them.
    I guess I'm just naive then? I didn't think it was in bad faith? I still do believe it's a good faith effort.

    What I have seen for nearly 3 years now is INFJs responding to her message (this same message)...having their responses rejected...and then a few months later rinse and repeat.
    I'd have to go back a ways to respond to that. Although I feel like OA has become more jaded over that time, than less.

    And if she is still 'cooking' things like you suspect...how much longer do you think this process will continue? How much longer should it be allowed to continue with not even a hint of change on her end?
    Well, if it's an Fi - Si loop thingie ... we can get stuck in them for years. Years and years and years. We need to use Ne to break free. Ne would encourage us to collect more data, seek out new options, new solutions.

    I'd also be interested in knowing how you would feel if there was an INFJ doing this same thing to INFPs for over 3 years. Perhaps it wouldn't bother the INFPs (the ENFPs probably wouldn't even notice)...but how would that make you feel?
    Well, if someone was using OA's approach it wouldn't bother me at all, since I can appreciate what they are looking for, what they need.

    If it was an INFJ coming into threads and repeatedly using their attack mode on me personally, it would be more challenging.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    My conception of the "NFP story" is this: OA answered the prompt; she was making a contribution within fair bounds of the posed request. No, it wasn't friendly, and yes, the tone was kind of self-serving, but she did provide genuine information to work with, and that information was never addressed in the way the original premise of the thread suggested it would be. It was startling and somewhat ironic that the conversation turned almost immediately into what was fair or not fair to blame INFJs for, instead of what INFJs do that drives INFPs crazy. So, IMO, the "NFP story" is simply that the original premise had been departed from completely as of OA's list.
    That's how I see it too.

    It reminds me of something a Fe user explained once (sorry, I can't remember who!) about needing a "safe space" for exchange of personal information - how harmony was a prerequisite to sharing, not an assumed point of conclusion. Perhaps the stalemate occurred because the FJ safe sharing space was immediately shut down by that threat of attack - but it's unfortunate because what OA needed to reestablish harmony was for an FJ to reach out.
    Agreed. And thanks for that, it's a great reminder. I'm making a Cliff Notes version of all of this stuff, recalling all of the previous threads too. Maybe I'll post all my learnings later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I don’t understand how this applies to what I wrote, which makes me think maybe you misinterpreted it. I was asking if any other FJs also had the same reaction to the way people kept bringing up “Well, it *is* a thread asking INFPs for their opinion.” Once the thread turned into something else, it turned into something else and it seemed like a moot point to me (aka: ‘raw batter’).
    No I don't think I misunderstood. But I meant that if all other INFP's knew that the reaction to that comment was an eye-roll, it would be disheartening.

    re raw batter and bikinis: loved all that, thanks.

    We’re saying there are traps in what OA has presented: we’re not implying there’s anything intentional about them, we’re simply trying to point out they’re there. It seemed like her reaction to this was to say “I’ve stated what my intentions are, it was not my intention to trap you…..therefore if you say there are traps, you are questioning my sincerity.” That in itself is a trap; it’s built on the premise that ‘traps’ can only exist if they are intentional- which isn’t the case. I have explicitly stated I don’t doubt her sincerity and that I don’t think she’s doing it on purpose, and this whole stupid thing originates on premises built on not understanding the other types’ priorities (and a huge problem, specifically with OA, is that she seems to have built a very elaborate ‘understanding’ which doesn’t look like understanding at all from our pov…..and we’re damned if we do/damned if we don’t by a lot of things in her approach). Yet it keeps coming back to “It looks like you’re questioning her sincerity, because she says there are not traps there and you don’t believe her.” I don’t even know what to do with that because it seems to me to so clearly fold in on itself, I don’t understand what isn’t ‘clear’ about this.
    Ok, I see what you are saying, and to be honest, it hadn't occurred to me to think about it like this at all. Forgive me for not totally getting this though, but what is the danger of the trap here? What threat does it pose? What are you getting trapped in? That if you say, "Yes some INFJ's are like that" it's like saying you are like that too? Forgive my obtuseness here ... I am wondering what you see as the outcome to exploring the list in, for example, the INTJ style like uumlau did.

    And did you see it like this coming in, or is this just revealing itself as we go along? Is it feeling wary of being trapped in some way you can't foresee?

    I do think there’s more ‘personal agenda’ in what OA is posting than she’s putting forth; but that is NOT the same thing as saying I believe there’s anything intentional, malevolent, sneaky or otherwise genuinely questionable in character about her, it is not asserting that she is “pretending” anything. ‘Personal agenda’ = ‘needing to hear something to heal a personal wound’. There’s some serious misfiring here that’s going off in this regard.
    Can you explain the misfiring more?

    I kinda feel like I’m being blasted with more Ne here (there are too many tangents, not enough anchors). All I wanted to do with this morning’s comments was to say “Starry is not imagining this.”
    Sorry to bombard you, all I can shoot out are tangents when I have no idea what the core issue is. I am just trying to narrow it down.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    @skylights -- what I'm hearing is that INFJs have reached out, and it hasn't made any difference, that for some reason OA keeps bringing her same axe to grind
    i don't know if anyone else noticed, but @OrangeAppled hasn't actually posted here in over a week. others have being trying to clarify how they interpret what she said, but she hasn't actually being here for awhile, axe or no axe.

    perhaps to some extent because people keep shortening her nickname when referring to her, making the act of mentioning a bit more deliberate then simply adding a "@", and making the act of site-googling when she is referred to a bit much... two-word nicknames will do that to you.

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