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  1. #491
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    And I want all the ENFPs...and especially the INFPs to know that what is written above is exactly the same way I felt until I stopped being a blind *%#@$...stepped outside of type...and actually did my homework


    I was going to take the bait, but nah. Like my new signature?

  2. #492
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    One thing INFPs and INFJs both share in common with each other in equal proportions:


  3. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorenx7 View Post
    The Waste Land

    T. S. Eliot
    Abstract

    Nam Sibyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse oculis meis vidi in ampulla pendere, et cum illi pueri dicerent: Sibylla ti theleis; respondebat illa: apothanein thelo.

    [I have seen with my own eyes the Sibyl hanging in a jar, and when the boys asked her “What do you want?” She answered, “I want to die.”]


    The effect of this thread on me and probably many others by this point.

    This is hardly helpful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    This is the point I was trying to make earlier. This is something Ni does internally- we compare contexts first, then apply our own judgment (which is *why* the processing is so slow), whereas Ne does this work aloud- focusing instead on applying introverted judgment to the isolated and immediate context and then bouncing the product of that off others. It can come across (at times) as hypocritical, like they are trying to propose some half-assed, self-serving resolution because putting forth raw theories without attempting to put it in context first is foreign to us; we *see* someone presenting raw batter and ‘trying to pass it off as cake’ because it’s so hard to imagine not ‘cooking’ things before saying them aloud.

    I’m not quite sure how to reconcile this. I think on our end, at least part of this reconciliation means trying to remember that what looks like *playing stupid* (or ‘trying to enforce a really self-serving, short-sighted pov’) is actually just ‘presenting raw batter where we would be presenting finished cake’. Getting offended by it is, I believe, projecting a tendency to prioritize doing that work internally (I suspect seeing Fe’ers as ‘believing we are RIGHT’ is similarly about projecting a tendency to prioritize introverted judgment about an immediate/isolated context….and expecting us to be able to share brand new judgment immediately- which we can’t do because it isn’t our priority to investigate new judgment immediately.....eta: and the truth is rather that we've just put judgment completely on hold). So we can try to keep this in mind, but it really doesn’t make it any less taxing to be pummeled by someone needing to work through raw Pe aloud (especially overzealous Pe’ers).


    /might be making things up (TM Kalach)


    eta: The thing is though, some Pe'ers really are just trying to relentlessly enforce a self-serving, short-sighted pov as 'the whole truth'.....just like some Je'ers really do believe they are RIGHT. How do people of the opposing team learn to tell the difference? I can generally tell with Je'ers- the difference between someone being slow on the uptake and someone being completely resistant to new information.....but with Pe, I have a hard time knowing.

    eta 2: Incidentally, this^^ is like a Cliff Notes (of another Cliff Notes) of the thread @the state i am in started about Pe a week or so ago, I'm pretty sure.
    I love this post, especially the bold paragraph. Such an "aha!" moment for me. From at least my perspective, I am not ever trying to present raw batter like I think it's cake. It's more like, I have 12 batters in front of me... all of whom sound amazingly delicious, but I haz only one oven and AMGS THE CAKE IS NEEDED FOR DINNER OH NOES! I have to choose one, but which one?! I don't know! And so I present thee with ALL THE CAKE BATTERS in the hopes that the other person will sample them and say "Girlfriend, make that red velvet cake like calories are going out of style. *figner snap*"

    It's nice to understand what this looks like from your perspective. Perhaps then a helpful bridge can be to just admit "I am not sure what is going on here but I have these ideas, can you help me understand which is accurate?"

  4. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    One thing INFPs and INFJs both share in common with each other in equal proportions:

    I'm certain you have already posted something like this. Either I am going insane or this thread has rubbed off on you and the medical condition of repeating points has tunnelled its way into your psyche like a worm. If it is the latter then I fear you have become part of the food chain on this thread and if that's the case then I'm sorry but there is nothing we can do.

  5. #495
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I was going to take the bait, but nah. Like my new signature?
    OMG haHA! Okay this is making me laugh...and seeing it in 'quoted-signature form' helps me understand your response (although I honestly wasn't attempting to bait you in any way - I was speaking from a place of total honesty.)

    What's weird is that I'm unwittingly proving my own point in this thread. If the reaction in this thread was truly about 'abrasive' or 'thoughtless manner' (or criticism) then I'd be on every single INFJs ignore list because it doesn't get much more 'raw batter-ish' than me. I have said all kinds of 'half-baked' things in these threads yet have always been met with compassion, explanation - not resistance. Isn't there a clue in there somewhere? I feel the NFPs in this thread have attached to a story...and just keep retelling it over and over again as if this process will somehow make it true. What I'm saying is that I know this story very well...I just don't understand the continued attachment to it when there is a clear deviation in the storyline in this instance. Is it laziness? Is it that you all feel all bridges will be torn away if we acknowledge that one of them isn't safe to cross? I don't get it. But if you all want to keep saying that OA is presenting raw batter instead of cake...then have at it. But it doesn't change the fact that OA is serving-up cake. With frosting even.

  6. #496
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I feel the NFPs in this thread have attached to a story...and just keep retelling it over and over again as if this process will somehow make it true.
    What's the story we're attached to?

    And what kind of cake do you think OA was serving? Chocolate or vanilla?

    Seriously, if cake is a metaphor for a conclusion, what are you saying OA was trying to serve up here? Do you think she's saying the INFJ's here suck, or all INFJ's suck, or that she was trying to make the INFJ's here pay for her issues with IRL INFJ's, or what, exactly?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #497
    Senior Member _eric_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    I love this post, especially the bold paragraph. Such an "aha!" moment for me. From at least my perspective, I am not ever trying to present raw batter like I think it's cake. It's more like, I have 12 batters in front of me... all of whom sound amazingly delicious, but I haz only one oven and AMGS THE CAKE IS NEEDED FOR DINNER OH NOES! I have to choose one, but which one?! I don't know! And so I present thee with ALL THE CAKE BATTERS in the hopes that the other person will sample them and say "Girlfriend, make that red velvet cake like calories are going out of style. *figner snap*"
    I think that's a good way of putting it. I never have any problems with such an approach, it can actually be pretty fun helping out! Getting on the defensive about it just seems really pointless to me. The only thing is...someone has to clean up the mess from all the other unused batter, and that usually ends up being mostly done by me lol.

  8. #498
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    What's the story we're attached to?
    You are telling the 'NFP story' and doing an amazing job of it. It is merely that you are using an irl example that is actually in conflict with the chapters you are currently highlighting and I feel this causes a great deal of confusion for those that are sincerely attempting to understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Seriously, if cake is a metaphor for a conclusion, what are you saying OA was trying to serve up here? Do you think she's saying the INFJ's here suck, or all INFJ's suck, or that she was trying to make the INFJ's here pay for her issues with IRL INFJ's, or what, exactly?
    I don't know what OAs motivations are (or what she's serving up.) But I certainly do not believe she is 'bouncing half-baked ideas off people in order to receive feedback and subsequently sharpen her own perspective/understanding.' I believe she's quite confident in her assertions...and is highlighting a different part of our story...the chapter on how we...when we just know we are *right* and are determined to correct this error in everyone else's mind...we'll repeat ourselves over and over again until we feel heard. Which frankly I don't have a problem with this. I just feel uncomfortable when NFPs are attempting to say this is the 'raw batter phase'. I don't get the sense she believes all INFJs suck. But I feel they are probably 'guilty' until they prove themselves innocent in her mind. And yah...that's about it. It's cake.

  9. #499
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    And I want all the ENFPs...and especially the INFPs to know that what is written above is exactly the same way I felt until I stopped being a blind *%#@$...stepped outside of type...and actually did my homework
    I actually considered whether or not to use this (what I think Starry is talking about) as an example- because it’s something that’s happened in this thread- but yeah. An example of ‘raw batter’ might be the way I’ve seen NFPs bring up the argument “Well….the op DOES ask for INFPs to give their opinion” (mostly it was in OA’s defense). I don’t know how to explain why, but it’s one of the things that has made me think “Really? It isn’t obvious why that doesn’t work here?”

    I’m still having trouble articulating why it’s an example- and really my priority is on answering SK’s post- I’m only posting quickly to say Starry isn’t imagining this. (And honestly, out of curiosity, I’d be interested in hearing how many other FJs kind felt a little bit every time someone brought it up…..because I know I did, and this isn’t something I’ve shared with Starry so I’m a bit relieved even to see I’m not alone in it. eta: seriously though- even if through rep where it won't kick up more dust- let me know because I really am curious how many other FJs felt a tiny bit of annoyance over this being brought up again and again...)

    I have mentioned a couple of times that I wish the thread had been split off, because there really *should* be a thread for INFPs to give feedback about INFJs. This stopped being *that thead* quite a while ago.

    Call me a dreamer, but I believe one day that thread will exist. There will be a thread where INFPs can post their pet peeves about INFJs, and INFJs will either avoid the thread altogether or they will learn how to respond according to magic Fi rules (I say that knowing full well there are just as many magic Ni rules).

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I don't know what OAs motivations are (or what she's serving up.) But I certainly do not believe she is 'bouncing half-baked ideas off people in order to receive feedback and subsequently sharpen her own perspective/understanding.' I believe she's quite confident in her assertions...and is highlighting a different part of our story...the chapter on how we...when we just know we are *right* and are determined to correct this error in everyone else's mind...we'll repeat ourselves over and over again until we feel heard. Which frankly I don't have a problem with this. I just feel uncomfortable when NFPs are attempting to say this is the 'raw batter phase'. I don't get the sense she believes all INFJs suck. But I feel they are probably 'guilty' until they prove themselves innocent in her mind. And yah...that's about it. It's cake.


    Something I wanted to point out about 'cake' is that it isn't finished product. My point in the analogy is just that it's been 'cooked'- but it can still very much be far from 'done'. And I think Starry is trying to point out that it doesn't seem like OA is shooting from the hip with this stuff- it's stuff that's been stewing for quite a while (and she's erected whole Lego cities around it).
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  10. #500
    Peaced Quay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorenx7 View Post
    However, I find that many times I can actually communicate with people in foreign countries (who don't have English as a native language) better than I can communicate with her. For a while, I did travel a lot, so this isn't just an irrelevant example.


    You probably did not intend for this to be funny but still.

    I often find myself thinking, "Am I speaking English?"

    But it's xNFPs in general I have this issue with, and I love em to death, my favorite people in the world, but the disconnect seems to be so serious that they're in one dimension and I'm in another galaxy. Lovely...

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