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  1. #41
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    giving us shit about this distance from the moment, however, is also unfair. this is like criticizing an infp for inferior Te. it's easy for it to just feel like impatience and a lack of acceptance, because it expects too much too soon. we still try to be present in the ways that we can be. we are still trying to influence in the ways that seem right to us. we are still committing to what we think is important. we are still really good at listening in some highly unusual ways that can help people with meaning traps. and it's true, much can get lost in the translation between the infp and the infj way, but this loss happens in both directions.
    Roger that, on both counts.
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  2. #42
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Do you see most INFJs on here are looking to be seen as demi gods, or exhibiting these characteristics?
    I'm talking about others' perceptions of INFJs, and I do think the way INFJs handle discussing their flaws or "common issues" often looks like side-stepping. The only type that is possibly worse in this way is the ENFJ. The xNTJs tend to just arrogantly boast of their flaws. I just see a common theme with NJs there, where they put a positive spin on a flaw instead of admitting any real wrong.

    I'd like to better understand. Is it a matter of hoping INFJs will admit to the flaws you have experienced in them (if so, a different approach might be more effective with us/them). Is it giving other types a heads up to stay away? Or is there no intention at all other than voicing an opinion?
    I'm mainly voicing an opinion, venting a bit (the quoted post was old), and also bringing to light the reality of some INFJs, as opposed to the idealized picture often presented of them. I'm curious as to see whether INFJs can see themselves in these descriptions at all, because most I know in person would not see themselves in it, even though they're the inspiration for it. This may be why they have trouble seeing their own part in conflicts they have with others.

    I am an NP too.... I'm rather mild compared to many NPs when it comes to "stirring reactions" just to see what happens, but the tendency is still there. So I just want to see what happens when I call INFJs on their BS; there's not much "intention" so much as exploration. If I have intent, then it's more NF-y - to understand what perspective leads to such behaviors.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    This seems unfair. There was more of this when I was first on the site, but if anything, these days the INFJs get a lot of bad press: neurotic, self-righteous, constant and gleeful door-slamming, fickle, you name it.

    I've seen little or any of the "demi-god" stuff for ages. Not that I'm looking for it; anyone who knows me on here is likely to see that I'm more likely to decry the "INFJs are psychic wonder-beings" reputation, than hold it up. (Which I also think goes for many of the INFJs here.)

    The INFJs I relate to on here are more likely to be pretty honest about their own flaws. Believe me, I am aware that I can be self-righteous and rigid at least some of the time...
    It's more of a general online rep than one here. It still exists... it's less about how many threads are around that criticize INFJs as it is about the general perception of them as a whole.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  3. #43
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    my biggest flaw is simply being oblivious to the social story.
    This is more uniquely 5 & so last though. INFJ e1s, e3s, etc, are less likely to have that problem, IMO.

    my constitution is deeply habituated within me, often stubbornly so, and this obliviousness is the result of a lack of development in other ways. i will at times resist simply owning the fault, but only in the sense that i resist others utilizing pejorative judgments that themselves are constituted within another set of conditions that is not the same and is not superior simply because it is connected to more powerful ways of playing within a particular social space.
    In the case of my post, the scale being used is hurt in other people. It's less about social expectations, from my perspective, although I AM able to recognize when some of these have the purpose of not hurting others needlessly. Yes, there is a common language being used, where certain things are recognized as petty, and so to hurt people over them is hard for me to understand. What I usually see the INFJ do is simply deny they hurt someone; which is bizarre to me when the evidence is all there. This is less about J, which I don't see myself as fighting, as it is a Pe viewpoint. For a Pe type, to deny something is in front of your face is, well, just denial. That doesn't mean we always give in the proper weight, but we'll acknowledge its existence.

    I also see words like "powerful" and "play", and I get this sense of depersonalizing these interactions, turning things into threats, as if people are just objects in the way, and there again, this leads to a stubbornness against seeing another perspective as valid. It's easier to do that when you depersonalize I guess. It's the hypocrisy that kills me with INFJs when they do this, because the same treatment extended towards them gets them all hurt & upset, and that of course, must be acknowledged! Things suddenly become very personal when directed at them...

    giving us shit about this distance from the moment, however, is also unfair. this is like criticizing an infp for inferior Te.
    But I think it's perfectly fair to criticize INFPs over our inferior Te. These blindspots are often where flaws are sourced.

    and it's true, much can get lost in the translation between the infp and the infj way, but this loss happens in both directions.
    Of course it does, and it happens between any two people of any type. I've found communication less of an issue with INFJs in terms of understanding the other than not giving credit for a view. Perhaps the invalidation is actually misunderstanding on the INFJ's part, but it appears they grasped it intellectually, but just dismissed it because it was uncomfortable. I just see a lot of, "I don't like this, so I refuse to look at it, and then that means it doesn't exist." It's akin to putting your hands over your ears and going, "la la la la! I can't hear you!".

    There have been sooo many times I've had to resist saying, " I told you so" to INFJs in my life. And instead of giving me credit & lending more weight to my viewpoint in the future, they just sort of shrug it off.

    to feel like you are treated as if you are not even trying is frustrating because we are thinking about the gap all the damn time. and it is the joke orangeappled says. we are trying to be too perfect, so that we miss the point because we overcommit to solving the problem in one way that is bound to fail.
    Thank you. This says a lot more than everything else you've said so far. What prevents you from seeing the problem another way, so as to see another solution? This is an issue I've seen with INFJs; they're trying to solve something which almost doesn't exist because they've identified the problem incorrectly. Then they get frustrated when they don't get results. I'm wondering, why doesn't this person see the problem lies elsewhere? Most of the time, it looks like they don't want to see it, because it means a change they don't want to make. I see someone who keeps framing something a certain way so as not to have to "move", as you put it.

    as an inj, and probably an awkward e5, it's especially frustrating when those others are playing the "common sense" game in ways that seem deliberately ignorant in order to utilize social resources unreflexively (/without responsibility).
    I understand this frustration, and being an INFP e4 so last, I am far from the picture of social grace. However, the issue occurs when someone informs you that certain behavior is hurtful to them, not asking you to "just know" because it's common sense. Again it's no game, no power play; just people asking you to see how you've affected them. I do believe obliviousness is often the culprit, but I guess it looks selfish to me when someone has tried to make you aware, but you refuse to be aware because it would mean change.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  4. #44
    Senior Member Presumptuous Pepper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    I find them to be pathetic creatures which is a lot coming from me who is pretty damn pathetic. Their Fe lecturing is a pain in the ass and displays of affection seem to not be genuine. They won't say what they mean and make sure I can't either. Other than that they're too black and white and paranoid. But I'm allowed to internally mock them so it can be entertaining on occasion.
    Wow...that's how people would describe me and do rather often. And usually Fi dominants lmao
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  5. #45
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post

    It's more of a general online rep than one here. It still exists... it's less about how many threads are around that criticize INFJs as it is about the general perception of them as a whole.
    The online rep is crap, I do agree with that. And I think I've always been quite ready to say so.

    I think it's partly to do with the "INFJs are the most unique type" (as in smallest number, apparently) - "so I have to be one because I'm the most unique special snowflake around" thing. I've certainly seen many on the FB pages, on other sites etc who either seem to be INFJs with extraordinary tunnel vision because they think Ni makes them infallible/incapable of doing wrong; and I also think there are a number who have mistyped themselves because apparently "special, broken and precious" = INFJ.

    I do think you're going to put people's backs up on this site though if you say that TypeC worships INFJs as demigods, as it's not the case.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Presumptuous Pepper View Post
    Wow...that's how people would describe me and do rather often. And usually Fi dominants lmao
    I had a hard time working out whether this response was sarcastic or not but I settled on it being non-sarcastic in the end. IMO the Ji functions look down on the Je functions as flawed versions of themselves (even though the principles and the area of the brain that is utilised are completely different.) I've always seen the Fe as ignorant of the more subtle nuances of ethical values and personal values which I find my Fi can appreciate and understands.

  7. #47
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    INFPs & INFJs often do well in the same realms, but with different approaches. Socionics gets it right there, although I don't think it always leads to misunderstandings. This doesn't bother the INFP, in general, but INFJs seem to think there's "a way" and that of course, is their way. This makes INFJs either diminish the INFP's strengths and/or resent them. As a result, you actually hear much more admiration from the INFP camp, which creates an imbalance & eventual resentment from the INFP. The INFJ is patronizing in trying to "guide" someone who is already superior in some capacity.
    It's true, if I think there's a way, I'll work towards that way. People can either take it or leave it. I don't think I ever try to force anyone into my way, as I find that kind of lame, as I have a dislike for those who try to exert their will over me, and I hate the idea of doing that to someone else. Perhaps it's my being more assertive/confident if I decide on an approach, that leaves some with a bad taste in their mouths? I can only assume it must leave a bad taste in some peoples' mouth, based on some of the posts in this thread, as I've never gotten direct feedback from anyone.

    INFPs are excessively humble, and will readily admit faults while not giving themselves enough credit, whereas INFJs tend to overrate themselves & divert criticisms so as to not have to cop to any faults. This works to basically leave people with the impression that they are nearly faultless. Basically, INFJs seem to believe their own hype & manipulate others into believing it also.
    I don't believe I overrate myself. But, I think I do know what my strengths and weaknesses are. To your point, I probably don't advertise my weaknesses, as I usually don't see much purpose in doing that. But if someone calls me on something, I'll admit if I made a mistake, or if I overlooked something, or I let something slip, or left someone hanging, etc. But I usually don't even have to be called on this by other people.. I voluntarily apologize (frankly I don't see this happen in the work environment much, so it's definitely not just the infj's who are reticent to admit mistakes). Sometimes people have an inaccurate impression of me, so I'll correct that. Other times people will say something about me that surprises me and I'm unaware I actually come across that way. So I think in terms of self-assessment, I can only do so much.... I'm not in a position to be totally objective about it, because I can't experience what others experience and I'm not watching myself 24/7... I'm inside myself, lol.

    However, as noted, INFJs tend to have a major blindspot when it comes to humility. That's a Ni-dom problem, but at least with INTJs it's out there, with no faking otherwise; INFJs often have this facade of being caring & self-sacrificing, but then they're very fickle & self-serving internally (which they conveniently put a spin on so they don't have to face their own selfishness).
    I can say with certainty that I've never touted my caring and self-sacrificing nature, because frankly I don't think I'm that self-sacrificing. It's pretty far down my list of notable traits that define me. On the scale of Selfless-----Selfish I'm either smack in the middle or on the selfish side. I'm not very giving of my time and self, and am very particular of where and how I expend my energies.

    Regarding the longer list of negatives of INFJ's from the older thread/post, I'm being perfectly honest when I say the only one I really could see in myself (when younger, or now when I'm feeling more unhealthy) is the Paranoia element.

    I truthfully don't think I've ever had a fixation on being the most selfless kindest person in the world (in fact when a teenager my dad called me a selfish little brat in one fit of vexation), and personal accountability/taking ownership of my life and mistakes has always been important to me. But I'd have to think more on it as to whether it's possible I'm deluded in thinking I prioritize and self-actualize that.

    tbh I think most of my 'weaknesses' and aspects of myself that *I* judge and am prone to self-beating/lamenting is all tied to enneagram 5 sp. I'm a socially awkward person, unable to connect to most people, which I judge in a negative light, and am prone to isolation. I don't think any of these are good things.

    Are there traits that others see in me that they'll judge in a negative light, that I might actually judge in a positive light? Sure, and that's their prerogative, just as it's my prerogative to see the trait in a different light. So I also may not draw the same conclusion about said trait as they do.
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  8. #48
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I remember some Fi vs Fe threads a while back where the premise was that Fi needed to be understood by Fe, but the reverse was not an issue. There were descriptions of "Fi being the real and Fe the shadow", and Fi being sensitive and Fe having thick elephant skin.

    Has there ever been a thread where INFJs or Fe target INFPs or Fi for complaints? Or is it typically the reverse?

    I can see the INFPs could in some cases be more inward and so overlooked, but possibly having a stronger desire to be acknowledged as unique. In this way the INFJ could be seen as the competition and these threads are one way to take them down a notch? I realize this is a bit blunt, but let's say that this premise in this thread that INFJs don't admit flaws is true. What are the INFP flaws and are there any NFs on the rampage to point them out? Are INFP admitting their flaws? Are they rejecting being placed on pedestals and so forth?

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  9. #49
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I guess if you put all the criticisms of Fe and INFJs together, then INFJs end up being an arrogant shadow of thick elephant skin on a pedestal.

    ...oh and Hilter was one. At least INFPs don't have to deal with that.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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  10. #50
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Forgive the "we" "I" and "you" - make them more generic to type, as I'm not trying to target you fia, your post just brings up some of the old stuff in general.

    And I find SO MANY of your posts extremely well-thought out and intelligent, informative, insightful. I look forward to reading them always. So, since we've not personally spoken before I want to preface this with my admiration for you up-front.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Has there ever been a thread where INFJs or Fe target INFPs or Fi for complaints? Or is it typically the reverse?
    Not sure. I would have to search. Generally though in these threads, Fi folks feel like they're WHACKING their heads against the wall trying to be understood by the Fe folks. We say how we FEEL, and how we feel is the most risky thing for us to share, because we protect that just as you protect your ideas. Usually, one or more of the Fi folks say something "dumb" that sets off one of the Fe folks alarm bells, and we hear the bell but don't know why and no one explicitly says why, and get collectively taken to task for it. This brings us to need to try to employ Te to be understood, since you aren't reading our Fi accurately, which then is often unfortunately misread as Fe, and then more problems ensue. Entertaining actually.



    From the Fe perspective, you can't believe that us Fi'ers don't get it, because most of this seems so patently OBVIOUS to you. Or you think we're deliberately playing some strategic, manipulative, coy or stooopid angle, or just emo'ing to get attention 'cause well, we're shit disturbers extraordinaire. Whiny, attention-seeking babies or stumbling unreliable emo-buffoons. Not taking responsibility and it's clearly our fault communication is breaking down, if we would only open our eyes and just SEE what you're so clearly outlining right in front of us.

    Honestly, I'll share a truth here - it's way easier for Fi to appreciate Fe than the other way around. Why? Because Fe has the advantage of believing itself correct by nature of the function orientation. Your Fe has you standing there thinking that what you just said is RIGHT, or you wouldn't have said it. Just like Te - Te acts exactly the same way. Both are "out loud" functions. Fi is way more explorative and tentative, as is Ti. We don't have the default position of RIGHTNESS, because we see lots of alternate options, and we play probabilities as opposed to black & whites of right vs wrong. Your Ni + Fe leads you to believe that your distillation of the issue is especially insightful and true because of the "aha" nature of Ni.

    With regard to this thread however, let's note that the op is asking for opinions from INFP's.

    SO - when an INFP hears this, we expect that you are asking for an UNVARNISHED TRUTH and we deliver it in a Te way. Blunt to the ears perhaps, but you'll generally find it offensive because you're hearing it laced with all kind of judgement from an Fe perspective when NONE is intended. It's the Te angle that tends to rile. And Te is our inferior function. When we use it, it's going to have some "taint" if you will from the functions that precede it. There will be history from Si, Ne will color it with all of the tangential spin-off issues, and Fi will signal our sadness or irritation or disappointment about these previous communication failures.

    From that other thread linked above, I will quote myself about why, when you ask us for the truth and you appear annoyed at the response, it's annoying to us:

    As a generalization, I guess the only thing that bugs me is that in a thread asking for perspectives, you give them only to be told they aren't "right". And somehow that sums it up well.
    You asked. We'll tell. Fi-style though, because well, that's what we hear you asking for. It doesn't mean we don't admire a MYRIAD of other things about you all. Which we express with 10x more frequency than is reciprocated. In ordinary circumstance, we feel like we're the ones reaching out to you, trying to match your communication style, not the other way around generally. Ask for truth though, and you'll get it from our functional perspective. Fi-style.

    Please tell me fia, how are things with you? And why does this thread bother you? Why do you feel a need to pull us INFP's down a peg because of it? To us, we are giving you what you asked for. If you ask us if the dress makes you look fat, well, we figure you want us to HONOR you with truth. We usually don't say because we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. But if you ask, we will RISK telling you our subjective truth on the matter. Anything less would be insulting to you.

    Us INFP's have flaws galore that we've admitted to with alarming frequency here on the forum and other people are happy to poke at them too. You know that we're not exempt by any stretch and have been attacked too for risking to tell our truths here.

    Maybe I should post a fluffy-bunny pic, is this the right time to do so?

    12426-bigthumbnail.jpg

    Sending you 100 because, heck, INFJ's and INFP's are awesome and we should just appreciate each other rather than worrying about the few little things that we annoy each other with.
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