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  1. #471
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    @Southern Kross, in the interest of clarity, I forgot to say that the Israeli argument as stated in your post makes perfect sense to me. It's the part I added and asked about that has been the point of contention, in my view (that since I'm Israeli and a soldier, I am also as bad as the West Bank soldiers). Perhaps what I see in the posts, you don't see, which is fine. In that case, what would be appreciated is the acknowledgement that we aren't seeing the same things, possibly trying to work out where the problem is, and that both sides are sincerely trying and not just being difficult to be difficult. If the same stuff keeps getting repeated over and over, by different people, that says that there is a message there that is being missed and it should be taken seriously and not dismissed. This applies to honest efforts, because I realize that there are people who just like to jerk chains.

    By the way, it took me this long to get to this point, too. Some of this has been rolling around in my head, but I didn't know how to express it or what point I was trying to make until now.

    @Mane, I don't have time to delve into your post right now, but I'm not ignoring it.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  2. #472
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    I did want to say that this disconnect in communication between the groups is why the INFJs have been saying that it has SEEMED that it was okay with the INFPs for for OA to act a certain way and say certain things in a certain tone of voice, but it didn't SEEM to be okay for the INFJs to act the same way or say the same things in the same tone of voice. In other words, it SEEMED to be okay for OA to hurt our feelings, but not for us to hurt hers, and not for us to even say that it was possible that she might have hurt our feelings. I don't know, because I don't know enough about the differences between us to be sure, but my guess is that you are taking each interaction on it's own, while we are comparing interactions and distilling them down to their similarities and differences? I really don't like to speak for everyone on either side, but it seemed to be the best way to illustrate the point.
    This is the point I was trying to make earlier. This is something Ni does internally- we compare contexts first, then apply our own judgment (which is *why* the processing is so slow), whereas Ne does this work aloud- focusing instead on applying introverted judgment to the isolated and immediate context and then bouncing the product of that off others. It can come across (at times) as hypocritical, like they are trying to propose some half-assed, self-serving resolution because putting forth raw theories without attempting to put it in context first is foreign to us; we *see* someone presenting raw batter and ‘trying to pass it off as cake’ because it’s so hard to imagine not ‘cooking’ things before saying them aloud.

    I’m not quite sure how to reconcile this. I think on our end, at least part of this reconciliation means trying to remember that what looks like *playing stupid* (or ‘trying to enforce a really self-serving, short-sighted pov’) is actually just ‘presenting raw batter where we would be presenting finished cake’. Getting offended by it is, I believe, projecting a tendency to prioritize doing that work internally (I suspect seeing Fe’ers as ‘believing we are RIGHT’ is similarly about projecting a tendency to prioritize introverted judgment about an immediate/isolated context….and expecting us to be able to share brand new judgment immediately- which we can’t do because it isn’t our priority to investigate new judgment immediately.....eta: and the truth is rather that we've just put judgment completely on hold). So we can try to keep this in mind, but it really doesn’t make it any less taxing to be pummeled by someone needing to work through raw Pe aloud (especially overzealous Pe’ers).


    /might be making things up (TM Kalach)


    eta: The thing is though, some Pe'ers really are just trying to relentlessly enforce a self-serving, short-sighted pov as 'the whole truth'.....just like some Je'ers really do believe they are RIGHT. How do people of the opposing team learn to tell the difference? I can generally tell with Je'ers- the difference between someone being slow on the uptake and someone being completely resistant to new information.....but with Pe, I have a hard time knowing.

    eta 2: Incidentally, this^^ is like a Cliff Notes (of another Cliff Notes) of the thread @the state i am in started about Pe a week or so ago, I'm pretty sure.
    Last edited by Z Buck McFate; 01-10-2013 at 07:37 PM. Reason: rephrased some things
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  3. #473
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    *wishes for a Like button*

  4. #474
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    @Tiltyred: can I ask you a question?

    In the post you made in response to my "owie" post, I told you in my reply I felt hurt, but I didn't really share the extent of that, and I'm still having some strong emotions about it.

    Did you intend to hurt me with your words, hurt my feelings? For some reason, I really need to know. It sure felt like you took aim and shot me right through.

    So, if you don't mind and it's not too much trouble, can tell me what you were thinking and feeling when you replied? Maybe it would help me process this. Either way, I still hit the reset button and I'm good with that. I just need some more info to work through my emotions on the matter.

    Thanks.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #475
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Ah I see.

    Is it that down to the INFJ distrust (for the lack of a better word) of emotions and how you don't like them getting in the muddle. In other words, if it sounds like venting (ie. about emotions), you'll support that; and if it sounds like it's about logical discussion, you'll engage in that; but if it appears to be a mix of the two, it sets off warning signals. You then want the person to verify that it either fits in one category or the other so you know the right approach to take. If that doesn't happen, things go downhill fast...

    Is this on the right track?
    Well, yes, I think that's definitely some of it.

    Maybe in the end it's a lot of it, and you're just using different words to convey the same idea. It's really more about a 'mismatch' in intention from my pov.. maybe it's the same as Z Buck's and fidelia's 'mixed signals' phrase used throughout this thread; like, it's frustrating to be told by a person that they're wanting to discuss theoreticals (thus bringing in a supposedly all-encompassing List), when that isn't really the case and they can't be neutral or fully able to discuss theory objectively because if they were neutral/objective they wouldn't have such a strong angst or complex with an entire type in the first place. I realize though that OA never claimed to be neutral/objective, but yeah, to echo some others there was a lot of bias already built up from past experiences. Same for Mane.

    So any Ne-thoughts thrown out there are going to have a strong bias towards the already preconceived notions that they have. It's difficult on the receiving end to just take that and still continue to be 'objective' and logical, while also learning later on that part of their aim is very selfish in nature, in wanting to shift their own perceptions. The result is many of the things you're trying to discuss aren't even being framed in a purely logical light, they're very layered with emotion and that bias resulting from hurt as well, so it's a very bizarre situation to be placed in, to be discussing theory, whilst in the process also being prompted to 'prove', and so on, to heal someones' own wounds.

    Anyway, I am sure I have been guilty of components of the above sometimes; I'm just trying to explain.

    And as Z Buck just posted, a lot does have to do with Ni vs Ne, J vs P, etc.

    If so, no wonder we're having issues. INFPs don't really need to make a hard and fast distinction between logic and emotions. They believe that the two can work effectively together, under the right circumstances.
    Yeah, that may be a lot of it.

    EDIT: this made me go back and read what @fidelia wrote earlier, and it puts it in a new light. She actually said pretty much just that but it didn't fully sink in at the time.

    Perspective, perspective!
    Oh man, no worries...I'm sure there are things that totally haven't sunk in for me, or cases where I'm thinking I understand something but really don't.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  6. #476
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    PeaceBaby, sugarpie, I did not intend to hurt your feelings, and I'm sorry if I did.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    @Tiltyred: can I ask you a question?

    In the post you made in response to my "owie" post, I told you in my reply I felt hurt, but I didn't really share the extent of that, and I'm still having some strong emotions about it.

    Did you intend to hurt me with your words, hurt my feelings? For some reason, I really need to know. It sure felt like you took aim and shot me right through.

    So, if you don't mind and it's not too much trouble, can tell me what you were thinking and feeling when you replied? Maybe it would help me process this. Either way, I still hit the reset button and I'm good with that. I just need some more info to work through my emotions on the matter.

    Thanks.

  7. #477
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    The Waste Land

    T. S. Eliot
    Abstract

    Nam Sibyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse oculis meis vidi in ampulla pendere, et cum illi pueri dicerent: Sibylla ti theleis; respondebat illa: apothanein thelo.

    [I have seen with my own eyes the Sibyl hanging in a jar, and when the boys asked her “What do you want?” She answered, “I want to die.”]


    The effect of this thread on me and probably many others by this point.


  8. #478
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorenx7 View Post
    The Waste Land

    T. S. Eliot
    Abstract

    Nam Sibyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse oculis meis vidi in ampulla pendere, et cum illi pueri dicerent: Sibylla ti theleis; respondebat illa: apothanein thelo.

    [I have seen with my own eyes the Sibyl hanging in a jar, and when the boys asked her “What do you want?” She answered, “I want to die.”]


    The effect of this thread on me and probably many others by this point.

    Indeed. I'm sure you're happy to be contributing to it. Your posts are just as dead-horse as everyone elses'.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

    My Photography and Watercolor Fine Art Prints!!! Cascade Colors Fine Art Prints
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  9. #479
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    I apologize for not answering your whole post. Maybe I'll get back to it, but, as I said in my post above, I have stuff irl that I'm dealing with right now. I did want to say that this disconnect in communication between the groups is why the INFJs have been saying that it has SEEMED that it was okay with the INFPs for for OA to act a certain way and say certain things in a certain tone of voice, but it didn't SEEM to be okay for the INFJs to act the same way or say the same things in the same tone of voice. In other words, it SEEMED to be okay for OA to hurt our feelings, but not for us to hurt hers, and not for us to even say that it was possible that she might have hurt our feelings.
    Valid points

    I don't know, because I don't know enough about the differences between us to be sure, but my guess is that you are taking each interaction on it's own, while we are comparing interactions and distilling them down to their similarities and differences? I really don't like to speak for everyone on either side, but it seemed to be the best way to illustrate the point.
    You are right that I compare and contrast and then look for patterns in points of distinction. Your example, didn't help distill it down - it opened up new possibilities which is great and I thank you for it.

    I haven't been able to give a lot of thought to the whole INFP/INFJ feelings vs. ideas thing, but just so everyone knows, I have feelings that can be hurt, too. So if you assume that because I type as INFJ that you are not hurting my feelings by using a particular tone of voice or whatever, because typology says that I'm more attached to my ideas, then you are assuming wrong. It might be best to start off thinking of each other as PEOPLE first and TYPES last.
    And this is totally what I do IRL. Fi in particular values the individual. I just like talking about patterns in people here because it can help guide me in how I read individuals. When I mentioned the Feelings vs. Ideas issue it was merely a generalisation and isn't meant to reflect all people, in all situations, at all times. I never meant to imply INFJs aren't hurt when their feelings are devalued.

    ETA: Your Israeli example, and what I've seen said several times in this thread about INFJs, assumes that the person arguing against you is in denial that there are people who act badly, but it has been said over and over by several INFJs that they agree that "there are soldiers who have acted badly in the West Bank" but they are also saying "I may be Israeli and a soldier, but I am not one of those soldiers acting badly. If I were in the same situation, I either don't know how I'd act or I think I would act in a better manner." Are all INFPS exactly alike? Will all of you treat me exactly the same way? Do you all share the exact same faults? If I have a problem with one of you, should I go to any of you that are available and yell at that person to make it better? I can do that if that's how it works, but I bet you wouldn't like it any more than the INFJs have liked it.

    Another way of looking at it: In your Israeli example, are you also accusing the one guy who objected to your West Bank statement of BEING one of those soldiers acting badly? Are you telling him that he has to own up to behaving just like those soldiers in the West Bank are behaving?
    I'm not quite sure how to reply to this.

    I've written several different answers and I've deleted each of them. I feel uncertain about what I think about this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Southern Kross, in the interest of clarity, I forgot to say that the Israeli argument as stated in your post makes perfect sense to me. It's the part I added and asked about that has been the point of contention, in my view (that since I'm Israeli and a soldier, I am also as bad as the West Bank soldiers). Perhaps what I see in the posts, you don't see, which is fine. In that case, what would be appreciated is the acknowledgement that we aren't seeing the same things, possibly trying to work out where the problem is, and that both sides are sincerely trying and not just being difficult to be difficult. If the same stuff keeps getting repeated over and over, by different people, that says that there is a message there that is being missed and it should be taken seriously and not dismissed. This applies to honest efforts, because I realize that there are people who just like to jerk chains.

    By the way, it took me this long to get to this point, too. Some of this has been rolling around in my head, but I didn't know how to express it or what point I was trying to make until now.
    Forgive me if I haven't made this clear, but I do see both sides and I totally realise that we're seeing different things. I never assumed you or any of the other INFJs were just trying to be difficult either. Please understand that when I defend OA, I seek to explain not necessarily to excuse or even justify (in this case I believe it is not for me to do that). When I see an argument where people are at cross-purposes, I feel compelled to try and explain why that tension is occurring in the hopes of uncrossing those wires, without necessarily a judgement over whom is to blame for that. I realise that the can sound invalidating and dismissive to you, because I didn't express my recognition of your hurt well enough, and I apologise for that. I imagined that you understood my purpose and that we were having a friendly conversation about the issue. I didn't know that that would seem like I was continuing to dig at an open wound. If I keep at the issue, I only meant that as a post-mortem, analysing what possibly went wrong - not to continue any arguments or to deny that you have a may have a point (which I whole-heartedly believe you do).

    You have to understand that with Ne, multiple, seemingly contradictory, beliefs and intentions can be held at once. I'm OK with doing that and don't see that as problematic, but I sometimes forget that people will always want to place me in one camp or another (again, see the thread on Israel).
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  10. #480
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post

    I realize though that OA never claimed to be neutral/objective, but yeah, to echo some others there was a lot of bias already built up from past experiences. Same for Mane.
    Yeah, it's kinda weird, she did flat out admit it was partly venting almost right away. Yet there was still very much something about the approach (and trying to present things 'objectively'?) that made the INFJ white noise-ometer go crazy. I've been back through the beginning of the thread out of curiosity and still can't really pinpoint it. [But boy howdy, it's still there.]



    Though I did find this:

    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    (Was already in the middle of thrashing and flailing and punching the air yelling obscenities and gets Bologna right in the jaw)
    ...has anyone seen or heard from Bologna? Someone should maybe make sure he's not lying unconscious somewhere.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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