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  1. #431
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    The power went out actually. I know about copying and pasting. Sometimes I also forget about the forum shutting down at certain times and get skunked too. I'm just too lazy to compose somewhere else first and then paste it over.
    Ah I see! When I first took web development courses, I had an instructor who drilled into us to always "Ctrl-C" before hitting the send button. I've been ever so grateful for that over the years ... Sorry the power stole your post!

    Wait a minute, I thought you guys were Te users. Even though Ti is my tertiary function, I still think that I feel fairly familiar around it and so I assumed that it was the same for you.
    Ya, Te is the 4th position though, I'd say that by our early twenties we just start to get a bit more aware of it. At 45, it's still terrain that I'm deepening my understanding of too. And I can still be very rigid in a Te way about trying to be organized etc - it's such an obvious blind spot that it's easy to overcompensate (as I do) or ignore it (as others do).

    I don't question at all what people are feeling or their right to have feelings about it. It's just that for me feelings are such a transient thing that I can't really even imagine what role they play for you. I mean, I know they get more emphasis, but it's not in any way that I could articulate to anyone else, so it doesn't seem to be of practical use then in my interactions because I don't know how to apply that knowledge. It's like never seeing red and someone describing it to me. At best, I only have a guess of what red is because I don't really have any point of comparison to help define it, categorize it, or utilize it. It's not that I doubt your description or I don't think it's valid. It's just information that I don't know how to translate into useful terms to help my interactions. So when I ask "Why do you feel that way?" It doesn't mean that I'm doubting you should feel that way. I just need some kind of reference point that could help me. Like if I recognized the colour orange, then you could point out the similarities between the two, as well as the differences. (I know it's a lame illustration, but I can't come up with anything better right now). You are starting with something I'm familiar with and then showing how they are different from what you are describing.
    Your color analogy is great actually. I was just talking to my husband tonight about this thread in the same kinds of terms. But what if you were blind, could never see any colors? It's like we have to have another way to try to communicate, but it will never actually transfer the full essence. I suppose that's simply an element of the human condition though - we are all ultimately alone in the way we see the world.

    There's something about your intuition though that makes me FEEL like you get it, I almost expect that you should get it. That's why I guess I keep trying so hard? That's what puzzles me somewhat, why I expect it should be easier in our communications.

    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I couldn't explain why it bothered me before, but saying that it's just that INFJs are insisting everyone communicates in their way or they won't play is only partly true. Of course, we all prefer our own communication style, but deeper than that, I can't give the other person what they need if I don't know what it is that they see right in front of them that I don't.
    I guess we feel like you don't believe what we see when we say it out loud it anyway, which is initially surprising and disappointing to us. It takes time for us to convince you. It's that whole "Te / Fe is right" thing I jaw on about. It's about being put in the position of having to prove something. It can be a lot of work, and hard work at that.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #432
    Glycerine
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    The other irony is how an ENTP made the thread combust...

  3. #433
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Forgive me, I misunderstood you. You appeared to imply: my post(s) were similar to OA's in their 'shitty little comments' -> that she actually seeks to belittle INFJs and does not wish to understand -> therefore my words of understanding can't be genuine
    ^^Okay sure...we'll just keep jumping from topic to topic - that's cool. I'll keep up.

    In my first post directed to you...I quoted a part were you actually utilized the words 'invitation' and 'share' to describe what OA is doing/requesting of the INFJs. Now you sorta *magically* erase/deny that in your response to me...but you are more than welcome to go back and read. Invitation and share. To describe OA's 'process'. <--And imo if that's not laughable I don't know what is. That's not me being 'dismissive' that's me being honest. I was honestly, straight-forwardly, no bs...asking you if you actually believed what you were saying. I wanted to know. PeaceBaby understood and I wonder why you didn't?

    Your response to me was fine and like I said I had started to write back... But it was interesting... You didn't direct the pissy sentiments to me in your response ...but rather quoted someone else and in a passive-aggressive move made sure to say something shitty about me elsewhere (completely misunderstanding on top of it). And yes. That is the behavior I have come to expect from OA and I was most definitely making that comparison. I have absolutely no idea what that has to do with 'preaching to the choir'...but yes...I was making that comparison to illustrate a point.

  4. #434
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    @PeaceBaby

    I'm not sure if it is Te and Fe. I thought it was before, but I wonder if it has more to do with what either highlander or umlauu alluded to about us actually considering what you are saying even if we haven't quite changed our minds just yet. Ni also just really takes awhile to process anything new and it doesn't always mean that we are disagreeing or not open to rethinking. We just aren't going to do it instantly.

    Oh! I didn't realize that Te comes last for you. I was thinking it was third. That makes more sense. I don't actually know how Se comes out for me except when I am in a downwards spiral and get rather self-indulgent.

  5. #435
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    @bold, This is the disconnect that I see in this entire thread. Each side is seeing things a certain way and assuming certain things... and then there are these flabbergasting moments from each side when they realize what is being misinterpreted. From our team it seems obvious that they are coming off as invasive... And they are going "How the heck is my question anything but a need for understanding?"
    But you know what's great about it, and why I guess I get into this stuff in the first place, is for those glimpses of the other side, the awareness of new ways, the opportunities to understand something from fresh angles. I don't want to lose those moments either. They make the challenges worthwhile.

    The reason why I'm surprised specifically about that WHY thing though is that I can think of a whack of threads and posts where Fi users say that the why questions are invasive. But your quick little exaggeration made it all click for fidelia somehow. That's another tool I can take away - thanks to you and Starry - exaggeration amplifies a point. I don't think to do that.

    Anyhoodle, thanks.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #436
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I'm not sure if it is Te and Fe. I thought it was before, but I wonder if it has more to do with what either highlander or umlauu alluded to about us actually considering what you are saying even if we haven't quite changed our minds just yet. Ni also just really takes awhile to process anything new and it doesn't always mean that we are disagreeing or not open to rethinking. We just aren't going to do it instantly.
    Yes, I agree there's that element. I do experience the same phenomena with other non-Ni Te and Fe types though, so that's maybe not the whole story either.

    Like I said above, that clicky-click of intuition I feel from you makes me expect you'll get it somehow, which is probably unfair somehow. I don't place the same burden on my Mom for example (an ISFJ). I just know that trying to explain certain ways I see stuff will not register. However, she doesn't make me feel that I'm not on the same page with her either so, there's something to ponder in all that. She accepts what I'm saying more at face value.

    Maybe that's just because she's my Mom though.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #437
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Mane, I believe you don't understand where Z Buck is coming from, here.

    INFJs are particularly aware that one of the best ways to get out of an otherwise morally indefensible position is to start accusing the other person of being even more morally reprehensible. So long as it feels like the other person is trying to get you to assume more responsibility than is merited, it is wise to be skeptical of their motives.
    it's just funny:

    in trying to pose an ad hominem as obvious while talking publicly about me while avoiding addressing me, a cheap tactics i've witnessed in the past which is itself funny because she is presumably a grown adult and is thus doing something which today is actually considered a common form of emotional bullying between girls in an increasingly more highschools (since its part of the spectrum of emotional bullying which is recognized as the cause of eating disorders among many poor girls who had to face such behaviors), but in her own self-described spirit of reflection i may indulge in humorously now, she has instead not only showed that the notion that is obvious for her is based on an assumption (from someone who isn’t showing remorse themselves) which she took no effort to fact check and which anyone who did actually follow the "remorse part" would know to be gravely wrong - either based on my post when an example of remorse was requested or based on the many posts in which other people have talked about it.... but has also in the process has implied that many of the INFJs here who have revealed their stories of remorse were - "not genuine ones".

    note that i don't consider her a Representative of INFJdom or think she knew what she was doing, she just utilized a common manipulation tactic towards the thread's participants in which a notion is presented as obvious and thus whoever doesn't see it must be flawed and unable to see the obvious, and for further irony, doing so while describing her angst at her own sense of being manipulated.

    see, in the world of unhealthy Fe without the support of Ti, things are what they look like, so if the perception of someone is made to look bad, they are, no depth or inspection beyond. its a world where ad hominems aren't fallacies, but rather the cornerstones of one's judgement. the combined result is that the easiest way to treat any notion, conclusion or fact you dislike, is either to try and shut out the source (the doorslam), or simply to try and make it look bad. ofcourse such a person could just say i am doing so right now, because under such a world view, factual information about the action and behavior would all go away if it wasn't for whoever said it.

    so when the attempt backfires, it becomes... honestly? sort of funny.

    the largest irony is that at the point of her doing it, it wasn't needed. multiply INFJs here and elsewhere have already shown beyond any reasonable doubt that they have shown and experienced genuine remorse.

    in doing so they have displayed the capacity to do all which remorse inherently requires - to take responsibility, to see themselves within the sequence of events, to take ownership of their part in their interactions with others, thus not having to position themselves mentally in a victim/tyrant model, nor generating a paranoid impression by thinking anyone is against them due to not seen the causality of when they have pushed someone against them. it also demands the ability to understand themselves within the experience of others, and thus see when one's advice or confidence in one's own advice might become tyrannical. in affect, by doing so, all of the items on OA's list and that others throughout the first few pages have brought up have being effectively disproved, at least as applied to all INFJs. if there is some MBTI related truth in it left, there are certainly a lot high functioning exceptions.

    when i have a notion and find out i am wrong, i say it, as i did. you can say it wasn't their responsibility to show me otherwise and that it was cruel of me to inquire, but a good few have done so out of their own choice, and for that i am grateful for those who have.

  8. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    But you know what's great about it, and why I guess I get into this stuff in the first place, is for those glimpses of the other side, the awareness of new ways, the opportunities to understand something from fresh angles. I don't want to lose those moments either. They make the challenges worthwhile.

    The reason why I'm surprised specifically about that WHY thing though is that I can think of a whack of threads and posts where Fi users say that the why questions are invasive. But your quick little exaggeration made it all click for fidelia somehow. That's another tool I can take away - thanks to you and Starry - exaggeration amplifies a point. I don't think to do that.

    Anyhoodle, thanks.
    Oh, no I totally get you on how these aha moments are wondrous and lovely and create the most beautiful necklace of pearls. I just lament the... well, whatever this thread is.

    On the second point, I think it puts the burden on the INFJs to remember an obscure detail about how why questions are invasive. I have a pretty good memory and I don't even remember seeing that around here. Or maybe it was a thread I haven't read. Either way, sometimes it's just really nice to have things nice and black and white and tidy and translated well. Like what I did today. *smooths her feathers down in humble manner*

    And lastly, I cannot stress enough how much Ne is an NFP girl's best friend. MOAR EXAGGERATION MAKES KANG HAPPY.

    Actually I now have no idea what I am talking about so signing out.

    Time to go explore the stars.

    Also, you'z welcome. Here is a secret Fi hug for you ---> : hug :

  9. #439
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    On the second point, I think it puts the burden on the INFJs to remember an obscure detail about how why questions are invasive.
    Fair enough, but us INFP's are supposed to be trying to remember all our stuff about INFJ's too, those little details ...

    Works best both ways.

    I think what's tricky for each of us is not immediately jumping to our default mode.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #440
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Saturned - Overall I see a giant mess of emotions and people taking everything personal and seriously. I don't get it. It's a forum. On the internet. Realize that everyone posting has the same handicap as you do: you are sans your magic tool kit of body language and vocal intonation and most important of all... eye contact.

    It's very easy to jump to conclusions on intent when just reading text such as this. I am no stranger to this behavior myself. I just think it would be helpful to try and get some distance when posting and also to realize that 90% of the people posting in the thread, have been on the forum for years. Everyone should have a pretty good idea of other people's general posting patterns.
    I don't really feel that emotional. This is the useful part of these threads that I like when the real conflict has lost steam and the post-mortem begins to see if there is anything of use that can be taken away. My tone gets a little more abrupt as I get more frustrated with not being able to communicate directly despite both speaking the same language. I'm not even sure where those disconnects are so I can't improve the problem and I just feel stymied. That bugs me, but it's not really about the people in the thread that much. I mean, there's momentary irritation, but nothing that's going to keep me awake at night. I think there are INFJs that are upset by this thread, but I'm not sure it's for the same reasons that the INFPs might perceive it is. Similarly, I can see that we're not improving things, but I'm not sure where the disconnect is. I mean, everyone feels like they've said the same thing a million times, and then suddenly when it's rephrased just slightly, it becomes useful to the other party. I wish I knew how to expedite that process!

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