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  1. #421
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Now when you say that people often assign false meaning (read things into) to the words of INFPs are you absolutely sure that isn't the other way around? Because I'm not sure I have ever been more 'misread'...my meaning more twisted...in my entire time on this forum. And with such confidence in your 'understanding' as well.

    So let me simplify for you. 'Preaching to the choir' is another way of saying I agreed with everything you said (in your heartfelt defense of OA)... ENFP to INFP sharing the same understanding. It has absolutely nothing to do with the INFJs and so I'm awfully confused how that lead to this ---> "which unfortunately, you seem to have read as disingenuous sympathy."
    Forgive me, I misunderstood you. You appeared to imply: my post(s) were similar to OA's in their 'shitty little comments' -> that she actually seeks to belittle INFJs and does not wish to understand -> therefore my words of understanding can't be genuine

    I'd also be very interested in knowing how I was being dismissive...and whatever this supposed 'celebration' is all about but in the end it's not big deal. Perhaps you and OA are very similar like you say. It has been an interesting conversation. Thanks.
    How about:

    ^^I do not believe the above is actually occurring do you??
    That's laughable.
    Come on now.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  2. #422
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    What do you mean by not wanting deal with someone's feelings? What sorts of situations do you do that?
    The example that was in my mind when I wrote that:
    My mom. Albeit, this is an unusual situation because of her stroke. Her emotions aren't always based on an outer reality. There have been times when she doesn't know who I am and becomes angry with me or distrustful of me. She has a great fear of the water and once I had to drive us by a body of water to get to where we were going. She became angry with me and called me the devil. It's very difficult to deal with her emotions since she doesn't understand what's going on, but I don't doubt that she's feeling what she's feeling. I just sometimes don't have the patience or energy to deal with it. It takes a great deal of trial and error, explaining over and over and over, and finding new ways of approaching the situation and there are times I just don't want to deal with it.

    A more general example is if I'm stressed or tired and I would rather not put in the time and effort to deal with someone else's emotions at that time. I don't doubt they feel them, but I don't have the internal resources to listen and respond.

    In the above fidelia appears to not believe (or fails to recognise) that OA genuinely wishes to understand despite indicating she wanted to several times - which causes OA some frustration. Perhaps fidelia saw her claims as inconsistent with the mode of expression (which was a little harsh) and therefore, in her eyes, it negated the likelihood of them being genuine?
    Part of the problem might be that I (and I'm only speaking for me) don't see that as a statement of feeling except for the part about feeling frustrated. I see a statement of intention instead--"I want to understand". So perhaps we are not talking about the same thing. But I do agree that the statement of intention could have been seen as inconsistent with the mode of expression (the underlying feelings) which sent mixed signals.

    ETA: This same kind of thing happened from the other side of the coin, when I posted the Special Snowflake crown and stated that it was a joke. People doubted my intentions, even though I did say it was a joke, because they saw what the image represented as inconsistent with my stated intention. I tried explaining, but finally realized that I had unintentionally hurt some feelings and apologized rather than restating my intention again, since, to me, restating would seem like I was denying that I hurt some feelings and was just defending myself instead. In other words, I took it seriously that I had hurt some feelings and I needed to acknowledge that and try to make amends.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  3. #423
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    Mane, I believe you don't understand where Z Buck is coming from, here.

    INFJs are particularly aware that one of the best ways to get out of an otherwise morally indefensible position is to start accusing the other person of being even more morally reprehensible. So long as it feels like the other person is trying to get you to assume more responsibility than is merited, it is wise to be skeptical of their motives.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  4. #424
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by OrangeAppled
    Originally Posted by fidelia
    I think the issue I take is delivery and intent, which seems to be less of an issue to Fi users than expression and personal truth. I'm open to discussion with someone who either truly wants to understand what makes our behaviour make sense to us (and allows them to see it in a more charitable or comprehensible light while making us aware of the repercussions it has) or someone who truly wants to help and feels we are missing something important that will improve communication between us and other types. Either is fine. But you can't deliver in an offensive way, offer someone no valid way to respond and then finish with an "AHA! So you see, you simply are a bad person, as are all other of your ilk and you won't change my mind on that!". I just have no patience for it.
    I stated this was part of my intention, but you don't seem to want to accept it. I think you're exaggerating my manner as much more villainous than it is/was. There have been valid responses, and I've responded to them & acknowledged them as such. This sort of thing is diverting from those discussions, which I genuinely believe would not have been started if I had taken the fluffier manner you suggest. Then it would have been a circle jerk of, "oh, yeah, sometimes I'm rigid, but it works for me! hehe!".
    (bold is OrangeAppled's)

    In the above fidelia appears to not believe (or fails to recognise) that OA genuinely wishes to understand despite indicating she wanted to several times - which causes OA some frustration. Perhaps fidelia saw her claims as inconsistent with the mode of expression (which was a little harsh) and therefore, in her eyes, it negated the likelihood of them being genuine?

    *ducksforcover*

    Lol, no need to duck, my friend! You hit the nail on the head. I didn't believe that she truly wanted discourse because to me it seemed
    1) She had already made up her mind and anything that disagreed with her hypothesis wasn't going to be considered.
    2) I offered an alternative list of what I perceived to be more my issues to compare my perceptions with hers. So did cascadeco. It wasn't that we were disagreeing that INFJs have shortcomings. It was that we simply couldn't identify with some of the behaviours she mentioned.
    3) I tried on two occasions offering examples of remorse. The first was negated as not being remorse because it was too insignificant. The second was not commented on. As cafe has said, I have to explicitly attempt to emote, as it is very much my goal not to impose my emotional state on other people (feels like talking on a cell phone loudly about personal things in a public place). Maybe what I said didn't appear to be emotional enough to be perceived as another story to add to the picture. Maybe it didn't seem like remorse because it was looking at cause and effect (see umlauu's post) and that seemed to negate any remorse that I expressed. I don't know.
    4) She did not explicitly state what she wanted. If it was trying to understand, I attempted to explain why that approach was not going to yield the desired outcome from us. If it was trying to warn others, I didn't understand why she would continue engaging discussion with people that she already appeared to dislike and didn't seemingly see any hope for change in.
    5) Despite saying that she was wanting discourse, little snarky phrases and comments were thrown in there that said the opposite much louder to me.
    I am more than happy to consider my blindspots. However, if I don't know someone well, then they are going to need to look for commonalities and then explain where we diverge in behaviour or opinion and inquire why. Stating negatives as fact when they are not familiar with me personally just makes me assume that they are not interested in bringing about change in a constructive way and I don't want to play the game.

    So in approaching that situation over again, what do you see as an effective opener to better understand intent or know what to do? I certainly am not negating that either Mane or OA had abyssmal experiences that have coloured their perceptions of INFJs. They have every right to feel that way. What I need is to understand my role in the discourse that follows. Would it be more useful to say, "Could you tell me more about why you feel that way?" I kind of thought that they had told us why they felt that way though. They had experiences with INFJs that were really negative.

    Any ideas you have would be greatly appreciated.

  5. #425
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Now I feel like I have found the part of the INF Rosetta Stone that says "if your INFJ asks you 'why did you do that?' it means 'please explain the why so I can understand'" versus 'YOURE A HORRIBLE PERSON WHO DOES HORRIBLE UNICORN KILLING THINGS" and all is well with the land.

    Or something.

    The End.
    - Saturned

    I'm so sorry. To us, "Why is that?" means exactly the same thing as "Please explain why so I can understand". I never realized that I was using shorthand until this moment. I can understand it from a Te to Ti perspective and can see why it comes off as abrupt.

    Also, cascedeco - agree with so much of what you said. I had written a big long post before, responding to some of your observations and then lost it. Just wanted you to know that I did notice what you had written and would like to comment on it.

  6. #426
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I'm so sorry. To us, "Why?" means exactly the same thing as "Please explain why so I can understand". I never realized that I was using shorthand until this moment. I can understand it from a Te to Ti perspective and can see why it comes off as abrupt.

    Also, cascedeco - agree with so much of what you said. I had written a big long post before, responding to some of your observations and then lost it. Just wanted you to know that I did notice what you had written and would like to comment on it.
    Wow I'm a little shocked that you didn't realize that's what it feels like to us when the big WHY question comes up. I'm glad @Saturned posted that in a way that resonates! And thanks for your response.

    I think us INFP's feel like we get a little double-barreled on that too. Fe asks us, "Why did you do that?" or "Why do you feel that?" and Te asks us, "Why did you do that?" and "Why do you think that?" Honestly when I was young, it just felt like being attacked from all angles, feelings invalidated, thinking invalidated - it's like being placed on the hot seat all the time, being grilled about WHY. I suspect INTP's can relate somewhat to that too.

    I find it's a lot of work to not be defensive in response, even though most of us learned over the years it wasn't intended so much to be abrasive as concise. But the way it sounds to our ears never really changes. We just have to be comfortable not being too stressed out about it. It is still flustering at times though as I think about it, even for me at this point in my life.

    P.S. We have to do something about you not losing your responses! I'll have to teach you to copy before pressing that "Quick Reply" button!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #427
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Southern Cross
    The problem is we don't consider the latter to be mind reading. What is plain to us isn't plain to others, and we often forget that. It is very strange to me that people would need to know why I feel a certain way to believe that I actually feel it. I really struggle to get my head around that. To me it's like having to prove the sky is blue by using scientific explanations about the interaction of light with the earth's atmosphere and how wave length determines colour. To me the fact it's blue is straightforward, the whys and hows are not essential to recognising it's colour. The explanation might be interesting and useful but we don't need to know them to see it's blue. Uumlau's description of cause-and-effect goes some way to explaining why INFJs need to know the reasons behind things - but it's so counter-intuitive to me it would require some effort to accommodate that. Not that I wouldn't or shouldn't make that effort; I just mean to say how foreign and puzzling it is to me.
    Umlauu does an excellent job of explaining this. I was reading something on the forum awhile ago about how impatient some Ni users seem with other people who don't see the same things they do or that they seem to skip a lot of steps in explaining.

    I think that for each of us, we don't always understand that what we see isn't that obvious to other people and it is not at all insulting to describe it. We might not even think to describe it, because as you say, it's like explaining the colour of the sky and it seems so obvious that it would be kind of mean-spirited to actually verbalize it as if the other person were stupid or something.

    Understanding the why and how is the only way that I can actually see what you are seeing. If you (general kind of you) won't explain the why and how part, I feel like I'm being penalized for being seeing impaired (when it's more just that you don't know that I don't have the same kind of vision as you, so you assume I'm purposefully acting obtuse or avoiding something that is right in front of us). I couldn't explain why it bothered me before, but saying that it's just that INFJs are insisting everyone communicates in their way or they won't play is only partly true. Of course, we all prefer our own communication style, but deeper than that, I can't give the other person what they need if I don't know what it is that they see right in front of them that I don't.

  8. #428
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Wow I'm a little shocked that you didn't realize that what it feels like to us when the big WHY question comes up. I'm glad @Saturned posted that in a way that resonates! And thanks for your response.

    I think us INFP's feel like we get a little double-barreled on that too. Fe asks us, "Why did you do that?" or "Why do you feel that?" and Te asks us, "Why did you do that?" and "Why do you think that?" Honestly when I was younger, it just felt like being attacked from all angles all the time, feelings invalidated, thinking invalidated - it's like being placed on the hot seat all the time, being grilled about WHY. I suspect INTP's can relate somewhat to that too.

    I find it's a lot of work to not be defensive in response, even though most of us learned over the years it wasn't intended so much to be abrasive as concise. But the way it sounds to our ears never really changes. We just have to be comfortable not being too stressed out about it. It is still flustering at times though as I think about it, even for me at this point in my life.

    P.S. We have to do something about you not losing your responses! I'll have to teach you to copy before pressing that "Quick Reply" button!
    The power went out actually. I know about copying and pasting. Sometimes I also forget about the forum shutting down at certain times and get skunked too. I'm just too lazy to compose somewhere else first and then paste it over.

    Wait a minute, I thought you guys were Te users. Even though Ti is my tertiary function, I still think that I feel fairly familiar around it and so I assumed that it was the same for you.

    I think part of my problem in remembering about the why thing is just that NOT seeing things in a cause and effect sort of way is so foreign to me that it feels that I am being respectful to the other person by trying to understand what all went into the mix before commenting on it. I sort of know better, but because it's not second nature, my memory seems limited only to the situations given, not universally applied.

    I don't question at all what people are feeling or their right to have feelings about it. It's just that for me feelings are such a transient thing that I can't really even imagine what role they play for you. I mean, I know they get more emphasis, but it's not in any way that I could articulate to anyone else, so it doesn't seem to be of practical use then in my interactions because I don't know how to apply that knowledge. It's like never seeing red and someone describing it to me. At best, I only have a guess of what red is because I don't really have any point of comparison to help define it, categorize it, or utilize it. It's not that I doubt your description or I don't think it's valid. It's just information that I don't know how to translate into useful terms to help my interactions. So when I ask "Why do you feel that way?" It doesn't mean that I'm doubting you should feel that way. I just need some kind of reference point that could help me. Like if I recognized the colour orange, then you could point out the similarities between the two, as well as the differences. (I know it's a lame illustration, but I can't come up with anything better right now). You are starting with something I'm familiar with and then showing how they are different from what you are describing.

  9. #429
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    The example that was in my mind when I wrote that:
    My mom. Albeit, this is an unusual situation because of her stroke. Her emotions aren't always based on an outer reality. There have been times when she doesn't know who I am and becomes angry with me or distrustful of me. She has a great fear of the water and once I had to drive us by a body of water to get to where we were going. She became angry with me and called me the devil. It's very difficult to deal with her emotions since she doesn't understand what's going on, but I don't doubt that she's feeling what she's feeling. I just sometimes don't have the patience or energy to deal with it. It takes a great deal of trial and error, explaining over and over and over, and finding new ways of approaching the situation and there are times I just don't want to deal with it.

    A more general example is if I'm stressed or tired and I would rather not put in the time and effort to deal with someone else's emotions at that time. I don't doubt they feel them, but I don't have the internal resources to listen and respond.
    Ahh, I see what you mean. I totally get why you don't want to try to address those emotions.

    Part of the problem might be that I (and I'm only speaking for me) don't see that as a statement of feeling except for the part about feeling frustrated. I see a statement of intention instead--"I want to understand". So perhaps we are not talking about the same thing. But I do agree that the statement of intention could have been seen as inconsistent with the mode of expression (the underlying feelings) which sent mixed signals.
    I don't think we are quite on the same page. Sorry, I probably didn't explain well enough.

    I meant that the statement of feeling was more implied. And it's not necessarily emotions per se (I probably should have used capital 'F' - Feeling), sometimes it's impressions, beliefs or state of mind - which intentions can be influenced by.

    OA says, in not so many words, "I want to understand why INFJs do this" or "I want to hear what you have to say". This signals (to varying degrees) that she is: prepared to defer, open, not fully decided, willing to listen, respects others views, willing to re-examine things etc. However, perhaps in light of her abrasive statements, fidelia doesn't feel that the state of mind OA was in (when she said "I want to understand") has been established and as result, she questions her motives. To OA, this is basically fidelia not believing her when she said "I want to understand", which seems like an accusation of affectation, or, is at least evidence that fidelia chooses to ignore what she says - which she finds insulting and frustrating. It's like being asked to prove that you mean well over and over again. It's also frustrating because it feels like, if someone won't even give you the benefit of the doubt in terms of your motives, how can you possibly ever convince them to believe in any of your points/ideas - they appear too closed off to properly listen.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  10. #430
    Anew Leaf
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    First, some random thoughts. And God help you all since I feel like I am the Voice of Reason at the moment. *the universe tilts*

    1. No type needs to be put on trial.
    2. No poster on this board signed a contract that says they are willing to be martyred for the crimes of others.

    Overall I see a giant mess of emotions and people taking everything personal and seriously. I don't get it. It's a forum. On the internet. Realize that everyone posting has the same handicap as you do: you are sans your magic tool kit of body language and vocal intonation and most important of all... eye contact.

    It's very easy to jump to conclusions on intent when just reading text such as this. I am no stranger to this behavior myself. I just think it would be helpful to try and get some distance when posting and also to realize that 90% of the people posting in the thread, have been on the forum for years. Everyone should have a pretty good idea of other people's general posting patterns.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Now I feel like I have found the part of the INF Rosetta Stone that says "if your INFJ asks you 'why did you do that?' it means 'please explain the why so I can understand'" versus 'YOURE A HORRIBLE PERSON WHO DOES HORRIBLE UNICORN KILLING THINGS" and all is well with the land.

    Or something.

    The End.
    - Saturned

    I'm so sorry. To us, "Why is that?" means exactly the same thing as "Please explain why so I can understand". I never realized that I was using shorthand until this moment. I can understand it from a Te to Ti perspective and can see why it comes off as abrupt.

    Also, cascedeco - agree with so much of what you said. I had written a big long post before, responding to some of your observations and then lost it. Just wanted you to know that I did notice what you had written and would like to comment on it.
    It's very nice to have this clarified further. It was quite an "aha!" moment for me when I read that. I don't really know why it bothers me so much when someone comes at me with "Why did you do that?" but I feel very defensive usually. Maybe it's because I honestly have no fucking clue why I did something, and I don't want to admit that. Or my reasons are petty and will make me look bad, or they are somehow ridiculously personal and I suddenly don't feel like opening up.

    Or maybe it's because it taps into that si grid network entitled "Why did you do that?" and culls up 18 years of having your parents say:

    "WHY DID YOU PUT YOUR PET FISH IN THE TOILET?!"
    "WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU TRY TO RIDE YOUR BIKE UPPPPPPPPPP A VERTICAL WALL?! DO YOU UNDERSTAND GRAVITY?!"
    "WHY DID YOU EAT COOKIES WHEN YOU KNEW I WAS MAKING DINNER?!"

    Etc.

    Either way it is very helpful to realize that this means simply "help me understand you so I can help us find a solution or empathize with you in your plight."

    Houston, we have liftoff.


    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Wow I'm a little shocked that you didn't realize that what it feels like to us when the big WHY question comes up. I'm glad @Saturned posted that in a way that resonates! And thanks for your response.

    I think us INFP's feel like we get a little double-barreled on that too. Fe asks us, "Why did you do that?" or "Why do you feel that?" and Te asks us, "Why did you do that?" and "Why do you think that?" Honestly when I was younger, it just felt like being attacked from all angles all the time, feelings invalidated, thinking invalidated - it's like being placed on the hot seat all the time, being grilled about WHY. I suspect INTP's can relate somewhat to that too.

    I find it's a lot of work to not be defensive in response, even though most of us learned over the years it wasn't intended so much to be abrasive as concise. But the way it sounds to our ears never really changes. We just have to be comfortable not being too stressed out about it. It is still flustering at times though as I think about it, even for me at this point in my life.

    P.S. We have to do something about you not losing your responses! I'll have to teach you to copy before pressing that "Quick Reply" button!
    @bold, This is the disconnect that I see in this entire thread. Each side is seeing things a certain way and assuming certain things... and then there are these flabbergasting moments from each side when they realize what is being misinterpreted. From our team it seems obvious that they are coming off as invasive... And they are going "How the heck is my question anything but a need for understanding?"

    P.S. I hope everyone else is giggling at the irony of the NF forum (oh what empaths we be!) requiring an INTJ to make people play nice, as well as trying to smooth the misunderstandings out.

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