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  1. #411
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I have, in the past, intentionally manipulated someone. I did it when my situation was desperate and I believed the relationship was virtually unsalvageable anyway. Also, the other person had made it relatively obvious that they thought I had fluff for brains. And they were correct that they are much more intelligent than me. I'd say they have at least a good twenty IQ points on me. The chinks in the armor were just glaringly obvious to me and I couldn't resist a few subtle pokes. I was actually surprised it worked.

    The end results were not all I could have hoped for, but I'm not sure they were worse than if I had not done what I did. I would apologize for it if the person had not before and since made their disdain for me so plain. I should probably feel worse about it than I do, but I do not think I would do the same thing again. It would have to be a pretty crazy situation to make it worth it.

    Normally, it's not behavior I engage in. I pretty much have to believe the other peson has already declared war on me in order to make me feel it is in any way justifiable. I've also learned that meddling in general is a bad idea. Especially with Ps. They can moan and wail about their circumstances and how much they hate them, but sometimes when they finally take decisive action, it can be like jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. I try not to project my need for closure on others anymore because of that.

    If I withhold information in normal circumstances it's because I am covering my ass. I usually tell on myself compulsively, but there have been a few occasions when I considered the other person unreasonable or I didn't think it was any of their business.

    I will change my communication style to match the situation. But because I'm married to an INTP who has a serious thing for autonomy and has a strong aversion to manipulation, I've had to become more aware of it than I otherwise might have. As a general rule, I dislike people trying to manipulate me and so I try to make a point of not doing it to others. I have a lot of doubts and uncertainty about life, the universe, and everything, but I believe in karma. I'm superstitious and self-interested enough to be worried bad stuff will happen to me if I do bad stuff to others. I try not to dish out more than I think I'd be willing to take.

    I care about others in that I find the discomfort of others to be unpleasant to myself. I don't consider it much of a virtue, but rather being a member of a social species. It's kind of hardwired in and involuntary. I do consider people that lack empathy somewhat defective or dysfunctional. I care about my loved ones because, to varying degrees, I consider them extensions of myself.

    Sometimes, the reason I avoid the suffering of others is because I don't think I can do anything to make it better and it is useless for me to be miserable when the people that are suffering gain nothing from my misery. It serves no purpose and the feeling of helplessness and anguish is incredibly unpleasant.

    The crazy thing for me with this thread is to just what degree my givashit is broken. This stuff used to really bother me. I probably finally grew slightly thicker skin because of learning to cope with my family's disapproval. Eventually the receptors must get worn out or something. Took long enough.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #412
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    I loved @uumlau's description by the way. You have a talent for clarification.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Nice use of the coffee emoticon - you get points for that!
    Thanks!

    But you know this pissed me off - for like 10 seconds (and then...a leaf blew by my window and I was happy again) And it almost had me hitting delete on the thoughtful response I currently have saved to you in WORD. And it wasn't so much about you making sure to get a shitty little dig in at me - that's fine. It's just that I like to be understood prior to gettin hit with 'shitty little digs' and this has not occurred in this instance so let me provide you with the proper material to work with. If my 'list', outlining OAs ongoing message to the INFJs, was an exaggeration...it was by such a small percentage that it hardly registers in my mind...and is why I very much appreciate PeaceBaby understanding this and responding accordingly. I was being quite truthful in what I wrote. <--And will now wait on pins-and-needles for a brand new set of 'digs' from you. Looking forward to it.

    What you did above though...it does assist me in illustrating my point. It is exactly what OA does over and over and over again to the INFJs. See it's funny because your message/response to me in this thread... aside from the whole 'The INFJs are upset because they are being put on the defensive due to OAs unvarnished criticism' I could have written that myself...and in many ways it was like you were merely 'preaching to the choir'. But that one thing separated you and I. I did NOT see the INFJ response here as merely being a response to criticism...it was pretty clear to me that something else was going on...something else that I was missing because of my MBTI. And so what I did is go back and read as many of OAs posts as I could...and they are filled with 'shitty little comments' just like your's above. And I'm sorry but there's no 'oh she's just abrasive' about this. Her posts are filled with shitty remarks that are meant to hurt and belittle - not understand. She claims to be seeking understanding when it suits her...and then takes as many opportunities as she can to get in her condescending remarks. And so of course the INFJs will ask...'What the hell do you want from us? Do you want to understand or do you just want to continue throwing shit down from your high perch?' But maybe INFPs generally don't want to understand just get your little insults in? idk.
    Now we're getting somewhere.

    If you go back and read an earlier post of mine, I explicitly said I only intended to play "harmoniser clarifier". If you desire more clarity I will gladly be more explicit:

    I don't agree with OAs comments because they don't match my (very limited) experience at all, but I tried to keep an open mind. Actually I read them and initially thought, "wow, that's a little harsh" but gave her the benefit of the doubt, because I know her not to be a nasty person. I didn't feel I had anything useful to add on the matter so I said nothing and continued to read what went on. The INFJs of course objected, which was perfectly understandable given the tone and content. I then saw OA getting ripped apart and as I know how it feels when you can't quite get across your meaning (and because she is someone I rather like and think well of around here), I attempted to mediate her likely intentions. I neither wished to condone or denigrate her opinions or approach (I didn't think it my place to do so), only to explain what may have been behind them, and that is why attempted to be careful in the language I used. I also tried to demonstrate understanding toward the INFJs because I didn't want to them to think I didn't empathise with what they felt and that is why I "preached to the choir", as you put it - which unfortunately, you seem to have read as disingenuous sympathy. I never claimed to be a INFJ whisperer and that I know all of what they think and feel. If I missed what they were getting at, I'm keen to learn about it. If I failed to express myself well, I apologise. If I grew overly impatient with your dismissiveness (and the celebration of that), I apologise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    This bothers me for this reason: In past posts INFP's have stated that INFJ's need to stop the *mind reading* stuff and take what they say at face value, but if I'm interpreting you correctly, then *mind reading* is exactly what will end up happening because, "You either figure it out for yourself, or you don't.", to quote you. Please explain to me what I'm missing.
    Aye there's the rub.

    The problem is we don't consider the latter to be mind reading. What is plain to us isn't plain to others, and we often forget that. It is very strange to me that people would need to know why I feel a certain way to believe that I actually feel it. I really struggle to get my head around that. To me it's like having to prove the sky is blue by using scientific explanations about the interaction of light with the earth's atmosphere and how wave length determines colour. To me the fact it's blue is straightforward, the whys and hows are not essential to recognising it's colour. The explanation might be interesting and useful but we don't need to know them to see it's blue. Uumlau's description of cause-and-effect goes some way to explaining why INFJs need to know the reasons behind things - but it's so counter-intuitive to me it would require some effort to accommodate that. Not that I wouldn't or shouldn't make that effort; I just mean to say how foreign and puzzling it is to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Starry, I also have to say thank you for understanding. I don't know if this has to do with enneagram stuff or what it is, but it's incredibly helpful for me to know that you see what the INFJs have been objecting to. I have a hard time honestly believing that just because someone uses Fi or Ne or Si that those little digs are something that is just a part of their honest communication and if objections are made to them, the INFJs are just insisting that people play in their sandbox or else they won't play at all. I found that an incredibly insulting simplification of what was going on. The addition of those little comments just negates my belief that there is any real interest in understanding or in even informing from a constructive standpoint. I'm more than open to the possibility that I'm missing something important and in gathering more information that would lead to better understanding, even if it involves conflict along the way. I'm not open to being belittled and then ordered to bare my soul.
    Hey, if something offends you, you're more than welcome to those feelings. Nor is "honest communication" is not a free ride for Fi-users to insult people. Remember you don't need to prove your feelings to INFPs. All you had to say was, "I find your tone insulting" and "I think this is a gross simplification" and that would be totally legitimate.

    I wonder if this is also partly to do with that feelings-ideas divide between us - ie. INFJs need ideas accepted at face-value and feelings to be justified, whereas INFPs need feelings accepted at face-value and ideas to be justified. What was called for was for INFJs to justify their ideas, which probably seems a slightly pushy and insulting personal demand to you. However, to Ne-Si this is no big deal at all, so when the INFJs baulked, it was seen as dodging a simple question. You also weren't quite sure how to justify your feelings about what was said (not knowing you didn't have to) and consequently felt frustrated. Am I on the right track?
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  3. #413
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I wonder if this is also partly to do with that feelings-ideas divide between us - ie. INFJs need ideas accepted at face-value and feelings to be justified, whereas INFPs need feelings accepted at face-value and ideas to be justified. What was called for was for INFJs to justify their ideas, which probably seems a slightly pushy and insulting personal demand to you. However, to Ne-Si this is no big deal at all, so when the INFJs baulked, it was seen as dodging a simple question. You also weren't quite sure how to justify your feelings about what was said (not knowing you didn't have to) and consequently felt frustrated. Am I on the right track?
    Definitely not speaking for fidelia, but I'll speak for myself.

    I think this also ties into the convo I was having with skylights, in terms of feeling 'pressured' when ideas are questioned (i.e. my internal more morphy world) or I feel someone is trying to 'impose' their ideas onto me, as I kind of feel like I'm expected to incorporate them automatically or I feel pressured to take on the other persons' world view. It's hard to describe, as I can see how this doesn't make sense, in writing, but all I can say is that I do feel that way - like my sense of self is being obliterated and I'm being asked to assimilate into the other person/the borg, lol. Otoh, I don't have issues 'justifying'/defending my feelings as much, because I'm always questioning my own feelings and whether they're 'justified', lol. Whether I 'should' be feeling a certain way or not, whether I should show something or not, because I might be going off of bad data, therefore if I had the correct data I wouldn't be feeling what I'm feeling. There's always a reason for why I feel what I feel; now the crux (and why sometimes it takes me forever to know what I'm feeling) sometimes is finding out why I feel a certain way. Also as I mentioned in an earlier post, this can be very problematic and cause casualities/hurt, if I don't acknowledge/know my feelings until farther in.

    This is rather convoluted. Even writing this, I'm not sure. I also know that I want ideas to be 'justified', too (hence if other peoples' ideas don't make much sense to me on the surface or I am confused by them or etc, I'll question them), so...meh.

    Edit: And, I agree with Eilonwy's post below. I don't not believe the other persons' feelings... but yeah, I do have a need to understand why they're feeling a certain way, if I don't actually understand... what caused it, so as to try to work towards, well, understanding.
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  4. #414
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    [...]It is very strange to me that people would need to know why I feel a certain way to believe that I actually feel it.
    I don't know about everybody, but if I ask why you feel a certain way it's not because I don't believe you actually feel it. I don't like it when my feelings are invalidated, so I try to not invalidate other's feelings. Not to say that it never happens with me, but it wouldn't be my default. I might not understand why you feel a certain way, given the information I have, and am asking for more clarification so I can respond more appropriately. Another reaction I might have is to not want to deal with what you're feeling, but that also doesn't mean that I don't believe you actually feel it--just that I don't want to deal with it for whatever reason. I could see where me not wanting to deal with your feelings might look invalidating, and might even be invalidating, but I wouldn't say to you "you can't be feeling this, you must be feeling that instead". I might, also, be amazed or appalled that you feel what you feel (an example that comes to mind is a girl on TV who was still in love with the guy who pimped her out for money), but I wouldn't doubt that you felt it.

    Anymore, I don't know if I'm getting what people are saying or not, so if you wouldn't mind giving an example, that would be helpful.


    ETA: I hope all those "not's" and "don'ts" end up making sense.

    ETA2: I've thought of a couple examples where I might not believe what someone says they are feeling:
    1) If a guy that's trying to get in my pants tells me he loves me, I might not believe him. But my question to him probably wouldn't be "why do you feel that way?"
    2) If I've gotten many, many, many mixed signals from a person, I might doubt that they are telling me the truth about what they feel. But even then, I would probably still have some doubt about my assessment, and my question wouldn't be "why do you feel that way?".
    Johari / Nohari

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  5. #415
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Feelings are always valid. You don't have to validate them to me. If you feel them, you feel them. It's just how it is. If we're going to talk about your feelings and you want me to understand them it's possible I will need more information.

    Mostly I prefer people keep a lot of their feelings suppressed around me because I don't like them splashing on me. I try to do the same for others. I have learned that this makes some people feel as though I do not feel things and makes them feel weird or bad, so I've tried to loosen up on it a bit. My instinct is to keep stuff inside, so when I am emoting, sometimes I am doing it as a conscious effort, which is back asswards compared to a lot of folks.

    It just makes me feel naked and tasteless to leave my feelings all hanging out where people can see them. *shudder*

    I don't know what I think/feel about my thoughts. I know I don't like it when someone expects me to jump on their bandwagon out of nowhere. Screw that.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #416
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Damn, folks.

    Here I was working on past responses today- ignoring irl work and hoping that it’d get itself done (it didn’t )while I was getting back to these- and the thread has gained many pages since. I am just going to drop my older responses in piecemeal anyway, and I don’t know, just 'step over' these dead soldiers without incident if they no longer apply.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    There clearly seemed to be a great deal of energy in the INFJs responses. It seemed like you were taking things seriously. However, it did seem like the INFJs had discounted most of the points, were being defensive and yes were in a sense attempting to discredit her. It might be a disconnect in style of thinking and/or communication more than anything else.
    The irony of this is, believe it or not, so long as we’re still attempting to point out “okay this is the piece of furniture you’re throwing in my path that’s preventing me from following you” it means that we ARE giving the person credit- enough credit to try to work through the kinks WITH them instead of making unilateral assumptions about where they’re coming from. Once we have to make assumptions because they absolutely will not acknowledge that we can’t move past these details…..that’s when we usually start keeping them at a distance because (I think, most of us) really hate making presumptions about someone else’s point of view and the more we keep that person at a distance, the less we need to rely on our own presumptions about ‘why’ they are saying or doing something. But yeah, if we’re pointing stuff out that seems like deflection…that’s actually because we still see some hope in finding a ‘same page’. But if we honestly say “this is stopping us from following your end of the discussion” and all we get in return is “you only think that because you’re INFJs, and that’s what you people do when there’s some unpleasant truth you don’t want to face…” (instead of help getting over the things that are preventing us from following) then what are we supposed to do with that? The whole approach was fucked because essentially: if we don’t agree to seeing that ‘list’ in ourselves, then we’re in denial and “twisting reality” INFJ style- there is absolutely no option here for the list to be biased or inaccurately estimated to be existing in INFJs more than it actually does…..if we say that- if we say what we believe to be the truth- then we are “twisting reality”. We tried: 'is the problem here maybe that you’re more emotionally attached to hearing a specific response (that you’re not getting) than you’re letting on? Because this ‘damned if we do respond, damned if we don’t’ is kind of a fucked up approach to getting answers here, it’s unfair.' What she says in return is “It’s childish to call it unfair. Either take accountability for this thing I’m saying you do or know that it will be considered ‘twisting’ reality.” …anything else except those two options is “trying to discredit her”. (...??!?)

    The ‘great deal of energy’, I believe, is because it truly is hard for us when someone is inadvertently sending mixed signals. I’ll go so far as to say it actually causes distress- it really can feel like having sand thrown in our eyes (TM Tilty) or having a pillow held against our face stifling us. It feels inaccurate to say “it’s hurtful”- because it doesn’t feel especially hurtful (even if it is something hurtful going on- I don’t even realize that until much later, initially it pretty much entirely feels like confusion because things aren’t adding up, initially it’s just a horrible silent alarm that distracts me from anything and everything and all I want is for this thing in front of me to make sense). Tilty’s response earlier may have seemed unnecessarily harsh- but that’s what happens when we’re pushed way too hard and someone keeps relentlessly shoveling on the mixed signals (or as Tilty said, someone just keeps shoveling on more WTF). Words fail us and our choice is to get avoidant or bite really hard to make it stop. And the thing is- we avoid this (cutting loose with the nasty venting) because what I said earlier about us having a permanent record for people (experiences leave a stain in Pi that’s hard to wash out)- for those of us who *aren’t* delusional, it applies just as much to ourselves. We don’t like losing our shit because we remember it and hold it against ourselves even more than Pe’ers do. Again: those of us who aren’t delusional take accountability for it and we try to quietly back away. Throwing this “irresponsibility avoidant” accusation (all that “it’s like covering your ears and avoiding reality by going ‘la la la la’) ON TOP of blasting us with a machine gun spray of Grade A Prime WTF is just MEAN. [in esse: "Why is your in basket still full?? Why are you going so slowly?? Clearly I need to give you more shit to sort through to make that in-basket pile even taller!!! ...I don't understand, I've given you more work and yet you're still not finished!!! I'M A PE'ER AND I NEED INSTANT GRATUITY!!!] That’s where the ‘great deal of energy’ came from, I think.

    Personally- it gets to the point where my empathy shuts off and I stop caring how much “distress” the person claims they are in because they clearly don’t care how much they are causing themselves. My own empathy never shuts off before I have been driven to that point…..so all this talk of ‘lacking remorse’ is pushing buttons because invariably the people who sound remotely like that irl are the ones who don’t get ‘remorse’ from me because they pushed me too hard without showing any remorse themselves in the first place.



    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I believe there is a fundamental difference in this way of processing things. The Fi type will put themselves in the shoes of the person on the receiving end - how would they feel if they were that person. The higher up Fi is in the stack, the more effective you are in doing this. One of my driving forces in learning about MBTI is that I realized that as hard as I might try, I was unable to do that effectively because if I were them, I would respond differently. So I tried to learn more about how others might think. As an Fe type, I believe you're not really putting yourself in the shoes of the other person so much. It's more like there are objective criteria being applied. You're also looking at the group of individuals as a whole whereas the Fi type will not do this. They will look at specific individuals one at a time. As I write all of this stuff now, I worry about stepping on a land mine in this regard or offending specific people, or rubbing salt in a wound, because of just how contentious and upsetting this thread has seemed to be for some people. I'm thinking about how specific individuals might feel about what I'm writing - not how everybody collectively participating as a whole is feeling about it. I'm raising these questions at the end because it seemed like there was a lot of communication back and forth but I'm not sure a mutual understanding was arrived at.

    I don’t buy that Fi has anything to do with being able to effectively put oneself in another person’s shoes. I’ll buy that ‘type’ plays a role in that an INFx type is going to feel more inclined to try than an ESTx type- and it would make sense that Fi’ers feel like other Fi’ers are able to see things from their own point of view I guess, so I can see why it would seem that way to you- but the extent to which a person can *effectively* estimate someone else’s position has nothing to do with Fi or Fe. “As an Fe type, I believe you’re not really putting yourself in the shoes of the other person so much”….that really makes no sense to me. It’s like saying “As an Te type, I don’t believe you’re using ‘critical thinking’ so much applying irrational ‘what *feels* right’ bias to whatever group think you happened to be submerged in.” <-I’m pretty sure there are actually some INTPs here who have said something along those lines, I can only guess in effort to feel better about themselves (eta: and I see cascadeco has actually brought this up too in comparison). Whether someone is INTP or INTJ has little or nothing to do with the capacity for critical thought though, it only affects the direction in which thought moves/congeals. It’s the same with Fi/Fe and the ability to actually empathize.

    And as far as the point I was trying to make: INFPs focus Ji on the isolated moment/context (‘What is this I’m feeling? Why am I feeling it?’), whereas INFJs are more distracted by “Is this reasonable to be feeling this?” and we run diagnostics on it by comparing it to similar contexts to figure out how much weight to give it. One of the first things I do is try to see something from another point of view- I’m inclined to ignore my own evaluation of the immediate context until I’ve placed it on the broader internal landscape of experiences and I know how much weight to give it according to it’s place there. So, for example: I’ve noticed that a Fi’er will be more patient with someone complaining because, say, their shoe got scuffed up while stepping on someone else’s foot. I immediately think “WTF?? You stepped on someone else’s foot and YOU are complaining about your losses from that transaction?!?” Whereas I think that comes across to Fi like throwing out the baby with the bathwater (iow: ignoring the ‘individual’ to focus on the group)- there is something to investigate in every context? NiFe’ers have a stronger tendency to place contexts in ‘their place’ on the internal landscape before issuing any priority: the person whose foot has been stepped on has ‘obviously’ incurred the bigger injury, and it’s blatantly selfish and short-sighted to not address that POV first (because it’s so hard to imagine not placing a priority on needing to categorizing contexts/moments first and foremost). <-That’s like a golden rule to Ni + Fe (iow: “this individual context/moment might not matter in the bigger scheme of things, so compare! Compare! Compare!”), which Fi + Pe can be oblivious to at times because evaluating the immediate moment/context seems to take so much priority. So sometimes when a FiPe’er expresses “this is what I think of this immediate moment/context”……it can be (like I said in the earlier quote- which is what highlander originally quoted) like “WTF? Are you even listening to yourself? Do you have any idea how that sounds?” because it really is hard to imagine not having Pi as a priority. This is the equivalent, I imagine, to what Ji’ers put up with the delayed processing of a Pi’er: it must be really hard to imagine what it’s like to not have Ji as a priority.

    At this point, my theory is that the more an individual gets wound up about how ‘annoying’ all Js are (or how ‘annoying’ all Ps are- or how ‘annoying’ any one single entire ‘group’ is) says more about their own inflexibility than it says about other people. I have established issues with some Te doms- I know full well it's more about me. Someone being really, really angry about how ‘all’ INFJs don’t listen…..yeah, it’s ‘kinda’ about INFJs, but mostly it isn’t. Like Tiltyred said earlier: if we’re that annoying, then why not just avoid us? Why plague us with how annoyed you are, presenting mindfucking theories that really just come off as if you feel entitled to MAKE us to behave/think in a way that suits you?* Anyone who sees a distinct ‘lack of remorse’ in that attitude, I’m willing to bet it’s because they feel a distinct lack of remorse in causing us distress with their impatience and pushiness in the first place.

    *[And yes, this is a thread asking INFPs for their opinion….but as I’ve explained countless times, that’s a vapid cop out where someone has directly implied many times that a lack of INFJ response ‘means’ something; if you don’t want to be held accountable for positing false underlying motivations, then don’t express them aloud. It’s not reasonably available to make insinuations about lack of response- and then be a ‘victim’ of getting responses. After the turn this thread has very clearly taken, I hereby declare it is no longer available to use that excuse…..though it’s worth mentioning I still think a separate thread should have been formed with these side tangents.]

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    It's ironic, but I suspect I might have an advantage here as an INTJ. To me, emotions are those silly things that I need to express in order for other people who believe in emotions to get the damn point. It is immensely helpful to just admit fault/responsibility - even if it is definitely neither one's fault or responsibility - because it quickly soothes ruffled feathers and lets us get back to important matters. An ENTJ of my acquaintance once said, "Guilt is a useless emotion," and I've heard the same expressed by other xNTJs since then. But in the end it isn't about guilt. It's about being willing to help out and carry the load, and for many people, expressing that guilt/remorse is necessary in order to make clear that you're going to be there for them when they need it, that you'll go out of your way, even when it isn't your responsibility or your fault, to make things right.
    I’ve thought more about it since it came up- and though I’ve skipped many of the posts on remorse, I was still put off by what seemed like (inadvertent) manipulation and that made it very difficult for me to proffer any opinion. The truth is I tend very much to mirror what I’m dealing with. When I’m dealing with someone who demonstrates actually being concerned about being hurtful, I mirror it. If they apologize freely and it’s done mindfully then I will tend to return that. I pick up the vernacular of people I’m dealing with so instinctively it’s even embarrassing at times- the ‘form’ changes, but as long as the content doesn’t have to change then I don’t even notice it happening. Apologies are a part of this. In environments where people don’t apologize, I tend not to either- so long as it all ‘make sense’ to me and I’m genuine about it, it’s all good to me. I’m surprisingly flexible in that regard.

    *However*, when I pick up on something convoluted about it- an expectation of apology or a ‘demonstration of remorse’ from someone who isn’t showing remorse themselves, that indicates something funky going on- like someone transferring their issues onto me in some way or some askew power dynamics- and I close down. It’s not even an intentional closing down- it’s the whole white noise thing and mixed signals, it just gets too overwhelming to deal with people like that and I cut interaction down to an absolute bare minimum. It’s kind of surprising to me it isn’t ‘obvious’ to more people that the tone this thread had taken made it a really bad place to demand explanations of ‘how we feel remorse’. Flowers do not grow in that kind of soil- not genuine ones.

    So in short, I absolutely agree with what uumlau has said here. It’s just that how INFJs ‘show remorse’ shouldn’t necessarily be judged from within this “DANCE INFJ MONKEYS! DANCE FOR ME!!” environment.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  7. #417
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I also tried to demonstrate understanding toward the INFJs because I didn't want to them to think I didn't empathise with what they felt and that is why I "preached to the choir", as you put it - which unfortunately, you seem to have read as disingenuous sympathy. I never claimed to be a INFJ whisperer and that I know all of what they think and feel. If I missed what they were getting at, I'm keen to learn about it. If I failed to express myself well, I apologise. If I grew overly impatient with your dismissiveness (and the celebration of that), I apologise.
    Now when you say that people often assign false meaning (read things into) to the words of INFPs are you absolutely sure that isn't the other way around? Because I'm not sure I have ever been more 'misread'...my meaning more twisted...in my entire time on this forum. And with such confidence in your 'understanding' as well.

    So let me simplify for you. 'Preaching to the choir' is another way of saying I agreed with everything you said (in your heartfelt defense of OA)... ENFP to INFP sharing the same understanding. It has absolutely nothing to do with the INFJs and so I'm awfully confused how that lead to this ---> "which unfortunately, you seem to have read as disingenuous sympathy." I'd also be very interested in knowing how I was being dismissive...and whatever this supposed 'celebration' is all about but in the end it's not big deal. Perhaps you and OA are very similar like you say. It has been an interesting conversation. Thanks.

  8. #418
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Definitely not speaking for fidelia, but I'll speak for myself.

    I think this also ties into the convo I was having with skylights, in terms of feeling 'pressured' when ideas are questioned (i.e. my internal more morphy world) or I feel someone is trying to 'impose' their ideas onto me, as I kind of feel like I'm expected to incorporate them automatically or I feel pressured to take on the other persons' world view. It's hard to describe, as I can see how this doesn't make sense, in writing, but all I can say is that I do feel that way - like my sense of self is being obliterated and I'm being asked to assimilate into the other person/the borg, lol. Otoh, I don't have issues 'justifying'/defending my feelings as much, because I'm always questioning my own feelings and whether they're 'justified', lol. Whether I 'should' be feeling a certain way or not, whether I should show something or not, because I might be going off of bad data, therefore if I had the correct data I wouldn't be feeling what I'm feeling. There's always a reason for why I feel what I feel; now the crux (and why sometimes it takes me forever to know what I'm feeling) sometimes is finding out why I feel a certain way. Also as I mentioned in an earlier post, this can be very problematic and cause casualities/hurt, if I don't acknowledge/know my feelings until farther in.

    This is rather convoluted. Even writing this, I'm not sure. I also know that I want ideas to be 'justified', too (hence if other peoples' ideas don't make much sense to me on the surface or I am confused by them or etc, I'll question them), so...meh.

    Edit: And, I agree with Eilonwy's post below. I don't not believe the other persons' feelings... but yeah, I do have a need to understand why they're feeling a certain way, if I don't actually understand... what caused it, so as to try to work towards, well, understanding.
    Of course you're right; everyone needs to hear evidence for other people's ideas to make sense of them. I suppose what I was getting at was more about legitimacy of idea/feelings rather than understanding. Although, the two may be inextricably connected...

    One thing is for certain, demanding a Ni-dom explain the legitimacy of their ideas, is a lot like demanding a Fi-dom explain the legitimacy of their feelings.

    I can understand you confusion over feelings from a Ne perspective. I can have an incredibly vague instinct about an insight into a given subject but often need to work through things until get what I'm on about. On TC when I'm writing a post I often don't know what my point is until I'm 80% of the way through it (sometimes 95% of the way through). After I see all the things I written are down on the page I can tie the links together with Si so it's coherent and makes sense. I do question it to a degree (ie. the need for Si evidence) but there isn't a value judgement placed on it. I put some trust in those instincts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    I don't know about everybody, but if I ask why you feel a certain way it's not because I don't believe you actually feel it. I don't like it when my feelings are invalidated, so I try to not invalidate other's feelings. Not to say that it never happens with me, but it wouldn't be my default. I might not understand why you feel a certain way, given the information I have, and am asking for more clarification so I can respond more appropriately. Another reaction I might have is to not want to deal with what you're feeling, but that also doesn't mean that I don't believe you actually feel it--just that I don't want to deal with it for whatever reason. I could see where me not wanting to deal with your feelings might look invalidating, and might even be invalidating, but I wouldn't say to you "you can't be feeling this, you must be feeling that instead".
    I see. I suppose what happens is that invalidation is perceived but not intended - like with what I said above about Fi and Ni and legitimacy. The person asking doesn't realise they are are questioning the legitimacy of that idea or feeling (in the eyes of the other person). They see it as a simply inquiry for more information and don't see what they are implying. I guess you have to tread carefully in such areas. The question is rarely phrased as neutrally as, "could you tell me more about that?", instead it's often a seemingly accusatory "why do you think/feel/believe that?", which people see as invalidating.

    What do you mean by not wanting deal with someone's feelings? What sorts of situations do you do that?

    Anymore, I don't know if I'm getting what people are saying or not, so if you wouldn't mind giving an example, that would be helpful.
    Hmmm, I can't think of any specific ones that have happened to me at the moment. At the risk of sounding nitpicky and inflammatory I could use some from this thread. These are super insignificant in the scheme of this so don't imagine I see them as gross insults, nor that I seek to ascribe any blame. I only mean to use it as an example of misunderstanding/misinterpretation. I'm so sorry to single you out fidelia:

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia
    I think the issue I take is delivery and intent, which seems to be less of an issue to Fi users than expression and personal truth. I'm open to discussion with someone who either truly wants to understand what makes our behaviour make sense to us (and allows them to see it in a more charitable or comprehensible light while making us aware of the repercussions it has) or someone who truly wants to help and feels we are missing something important that will improve communication between us and other types. Either is fine. But you can't deliver in an offensive way, offer someone no valid way to respond and then finish with an "AHA! So you see, you simply are a bad person, as are all other of your ilk and you won't change my mind on that!". I just have no patience for it.
    I stated this was part of my intention, but you don't seem to want to accept it. I think you're exaggerating my manner as much more villainous than it is/was. There have been valid responses, and I've responded to them & acknowledged them as such. This sort of thing is diverting from those discussions, which I genuinely believe would not have been started if I had taken the fluffier manner you suggest. Then it would have been a circle jerk of, "oh, yeah, sometimes I'm rigid, but it works for me! hehe!".
    (bold is OrangeAppled's)

    In the above fidelia appears to not believe (or fails to recognise) that OA genuinely wishes to understand despite indicating she wanted to several times - which causes OA some frustration. Perhaps fidelia saw her claims as inconsistent with the mode of expression (which was a little harsh) and therefore, in her eyes, it negated the likelihood of them being genuine?

    *ducksforcover*
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    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  9. #419
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post

    Now I feel like I have found the part of the INF Rosetta Stone that says "if your INFJ asks you 'why did you do that?' it means 'please explain the why so I can understand'" versus 'YOURE A HORRIBLE PERSON WHO DOES HORRIBLE UNICORN KILLING THINGS" and all is well with the land.

    Or something.

    The End.



    There's horrible unicorn killing things implications in our tone? *feels remorse*

    See, I'd actually like to be called on this if/when I do it. It does trouble me when I read these threads, because I really don't know how much of this I do.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    *However*, when I pick up on something convoluted about it- an expectation of apology or a ‘demonstration of remorse’ from someone who isn’t showing remorse themselves, that indicates something funky going on- like someone transferring their issues onto me in some way or some askew power dynamics- and I close down. It’s not even an intentional closing down- it’s the whole white noise thing and mixed signals, it just gets too overwhelming to deal with people like that and I cut interaction down to an absolute bare minimum. It’s kind of surprising to me it isn’t ‘obvious’ to more people that the tone this thread had taken made it a really bad place to demand explanations of ‘how we feel remorse’. Flowers do not grow in that kind of soil- not genuine ones.

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